ZOWIE! Imbel Type II Receiver!

[FALPhil]

See the thread at
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=8&TID=5699&SID=6098

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/Public/Uploads/Post-8-5699-Imbel_Receiver_Remachined_to_type_2.JPG

[Dwalton]

It's nice , BUT , what did he do about the issue of moving the serial # ?
I'm just asking because I'd like to make an inch Imbel of mine into a Brit L1A1 look alike .

DJW

[Para Driver]

ditto...
nice work, but what about remarking the s/n?

[bykerhd]

My main concerns would center around what this does to the strength of the receiver as the work is done after it was completed and heat treated.
It sounds like the gunsmith ? machinist ? knows his stuff and is the cautious type. We will have to wait and see how his receiver holds up after his testing.
Hard to believe you could purchase an Imbel receiver, ship it to and from this gentleman, have him recontour it and not have more money invested than a new DSA though.

[Dave1]

I think the only places an Imbel are heat treated is in the mag well by the notch for the mag and the locking lug. Tell tale signs of this are the different colors in the park. They use an induction hardening method.
Dave

[19kilo]

Is that pic missing its EB? I can see the hole for the BHO pin but cannot see any holes for the Ejector Block pins??? Am I just not seeing right???
KILO OUT

[Big Jim]

I'm the guilty party who sinned against.......whatever. I posted this on (gasp) the Fal Files General Discussion Forum last week.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=41592

Like I said, I'm not offering this as a service. I'm building it as "one for me". If it breaks in an unreasonably short time or shows problems I don't really want to be known as "that #$@hole who ruined all those Imbels and then went bankrupt" a/la the aluminum parts , etc.
The serial number is under the smudge at the bottom edge of the magwell guide plate. Photoshop option. I didn't think anybody else needed the serial number for any good reason. The regs allow relocation of serial numbers; they must be STAMPED in the new location BEFORE removal at the old location and must be in an area clearly visible without disassembly. And the ejector block is still in there, the photo quality just doesn't show the rivet ends. Reheat treatment isn't necessary; I didn't affect the original heat treatment. (Rule number one in machining--"Don't get it hot"). Strength might be an issue; that's one reason I want to test this a while before I do 'em for friends.
FALPHIL posted the photo of the rework, Mk1. I recontoured it a little better the next AM and the Mk1* version is posted at the end of the original string.
I did this " just for fun." Gunsmiths are allowed to have fun, too-- and I do.(grin)

[Brian in MN]

Originally posted by Big Jim
. The regs allow relocation of serial numbers; they must be STAMPED in the new location BEFORE removal at the old location and must be in an area clearly visible without disassembly.


Where did you get this information. I spoke to someone here in the St. Paul ATF office about this very topic. He told me that they get requests from a MN gunsmithing school for permission to move serial numbers all the time and that the answer is always a very firm, "NO". According to him the only people who may remark serial numbers are the manufacturer, the importer or a company working directly for the manufacturer or importer.

[FALPhil]

Talking to a BATF agent is never the right thing to do. The right thing to do is to consult the written regulations. Remember, you are talking to a government bureaucrat. They typically don't know shinola from Sheboygan. They will answer off the tops of their heads, because they want you to think they know what they are talking about.

Originally posted by Brian in MN
Where did you get this information. I spoke to someone here in the St. Paul ATF office about this very topic. He told me that they get requests from a MN gunsmithing school for permission to move serial numbers all the time and that the answer is always a very firm, "NO". According to him the only people who may remark serial numbers are the manufacturer, the importer or a company working directly for the manufacturer or importer.

[Big Jim]

Well, it has been an interesting day. After reading Brian's post I contacted ATF Technical Division in Wash., D.C. Brian is correct and my information is terribly out of date--assuming it was ever correct. I have distinct memory of the discussion with the ATF Agent years ago; as FalPhil states--consult the written regs. In a word or two: DON'T relocate the serial number. I have been visited by an ATF Agent today at my request to initiate the paper trail to correct my error; I DON't mean to make light of this but am glad I won't have to haul ass for Mexico. If upper echelon ATF personnel agree that no criminal purpose was intended they'll assign a new serial number, I'll stamp it on the receiver, they'll inspect it and I can then go ahead and build on it. If they don't agree to assign a number the receiver will be declared "contraband" and I'll have to surrender it. I was prepared to lose a receiver and rifle to testing but this came out of left field. This would not be the first loss I have had in business but losses are never pleasant. This proves you're never too old to learn--and I'm really glad I had not already done a bunch of these, although for an entirely different reason. Thanks for the Heads Up, Brian. I will post an update when I have more to report.

[skfullgun]

Makes you wonder if an honest guy can get a break?

Too bad the rules are written for criminals who will never follow them anyway.

Sorry to hear you might have to take a loss. Hope it all works out well.

[Brian in MN]

As a matter of fact, Phil, I did consult the written regs. The fellow I spoke to directed me to thier website and the reg the HE had written for ATF. I felt pretty confident that the knew what he was talking about.

[medicmike]

Rgardless of legalities, that sure makes an Imbel look great!! Too bad all of this is such a pain for you.

[FALPhil]

That's great. You lucked out that time. Maybe I should get you to help me choose lottery numbers. ;)

I learned my lesson the hard way. Now I read the regs for myself.

Originally posted by Brian in MN
As a matter of fact, Phil, I did consult the written regs. The fellow I spoke to directed me to thier website and the reg the HE had written for ATF. I felt pretty confident that the knew what he was talking about.

[litsnsirn]

Don't smiths move serial numbers when they checker, polish, or relieve sometimes?

[Brian in MN]

Originally posted by litsnsirn
Don't smiths move serial numbers when they checker, polish, or relieve sometimes?

They sure do. That does not make it legal, though.

[Ekie]

BTT, interesting subject matter.

[ftierson]

Big Jim,

Any updates vis-a-vis the BATFE and their inspection of the renumbering?

I'm going to be pissed if they use this "honest" mistake to confiscate the receiver.

But then again, it's always better to save the being pissed part until you know that it's appropriate.

Hopefully, BATFE will do the "right" thing here.

[FWRA]

Originally posted by ftierson
Big Jim,

Any updates vis-a-vis the BATFE and their inspection of the renumbering?

I'm going to be pissed if they use this "honest" mistake to confiscate the receiver.

But then again, it's always better to save the being pissed part until you know that it's appropriate.

Hopefully, BATFE will do the "right" thing here.

They let him keep it and had him put an ATF serial on it if memory serves me.
I'm glad this got bumped to top because I get tired of warning folks not to move serial numbers or import marks on receivers. About every few months someone posts regarding this issue and I link them here. Folks argue that this is legal to move serial numbers.....go right ahead and do it then and post pictures for all of us to see the re-manufactured Imbel III to Type 1 and the professional re-serializing. ATF will also get a kick out of it and call you to see the beautiful work in person. :)

I don't care WHAT gunsmith does this it's not legal to do so and the consequences are severe should you get caught.

It boils down to the fact...if you want a Type I or II receiver?....buy one.



FWRA

[firedog]

Mark is itn't legal for a type 07FFL holder(manufactorer?) basically as a new reciever? or is that also illegal?

[FWRA]

Originally posted by firedog
Mark is itn't legal for a type 07FFL holder(manufactorer?) basically as a new reciever? or is that also illegal?

Well firedog...you be the judge. Big Jim IS an 07FFL holder (manufacturer)...and a darned good one. ;)

Here's the above scenario....
Jim posts photos here of his excellent Imbel re-work done strictly as a hobby project. (edited after re-reading Jim's explanation) Then other member posts that obiterating/restamping serial numbers is not kosher according to ATF......then Jim checks with BATFE....they say no... and they come for a visit. Rather than taking the receiver....they allow him to do just this one and have him re-stamp an ATF serial number.

Lesson learned.
Friends don't let friends re-stamp or move serial numbers. :)

FWRA

[firedog]

The things I learn here, thanks!

[Mad Dog 7.62]

Originally posted by FWRA

Here's the above scenario....
Jim posts photos here of his excellent Imbel re-work done strictly as a hobby project. Then shortly thereafter he's contacted by BATFE.

Seems clear to me that we have more than just "Fal hobby members" registered here.....
FWRA

Actually, BigJim's post states he initiated contact with the ATF Tech Branch. I can see ATF having strict rules about messing with serial numbers, but I would think a licensed 07 could be trusted to move and properly mark a serial. After all, they trust them to build new receivers and mark them. This is one of those rules that doesn't make much sense from a common sense standpoint.
MD

[mojo_matic]

MD stated,
"After all, they trust them to build new receivers and mark them. This is one of those rules that doesn't make much sense from a common sense standpoint."

What laws and regs. regarding firearms via. BATF DO make sense?

[xcpd69]

Where there is a will, there is a way.

IF you are wanting to convert a Type III to an earlier type there are two things to look out for on markings. Altering or removing the manufacturer and importers marks, and altering or removing the serial number from it's original location.

On the Imbels. with the serial number on the outside of the mag well, you can still make the lightening cuts on it, by leaving a small raised rectangle with the original serial number on it. Done proberly, it would look nice.

As far as recontouring the type III to Type I or Type II along the sides, some receivers have importer's markings that would be obliterated partialy. Another no-no. But if it's marked so the lightening contours can be done, you're in business.

[ulfrikr]

Just to fan the fire a little....

The regs say you can't _move_ a serial number, and the regs say that the serial numbers have to be marked at least a certain depth,

but they don't say anything about making a serial number _deeper_.

What I've considered is applying a resist-mask to the surrounding receiver surface, then electro-etching the existing serial number deeper into the receiver, in its current legal location and configuration,

Yes, this would be a pain in the arse, but it seems that the result would conform to the letter of the law.

Any opinions?

IANAL, DNTTAH, BLAHBLAHBLAH

~Rick

[TRANS AM 79]

I have 80% CIA recievers I am going to machine . Can I machine off the importers lettering ?