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canuck762
July 24, 2017, 19:01
Does anyone here have reference material or specs. on how the metal was originally finished at the factory for BSA, Enfield, AD and Indian. I am interested in correct restoration for these Commonwealth rifles if it is possible. There is no major pitting or corrosion on them so I think that I can clean them up without disturbing any markings or stampings.

SAFN49
July 24, 2017, 19:39
Paint over park.

Unfortunately the exact formula is probably lost to time, and would probably not be legal now due to environmental regulations.

Trypcil
July 24, 2017, 19:55
Well if you are going to paint - you can 'manganese phosphate' the parts yourself at home, and then stove enamel the 'large parts' with an appropriate paint - duplicolor black 1635 ford semi gloss(if I remember correctly). The Manganese phosphate ingredients can be garnered from a a quality hardware store, and Youtube will have videos on the process - 'stove enameling' is essential an oven baking of an enameling paint. As to whether the Brit L1A1's were manganese or zinc phosphate, I cannot say one way or the other - the paint was Suncorite(IIRC). Others will chime in - :)

SAFN49
July 24, 2017, 20:02
Well if you are going to paint - you can 'manganese phosphate' the parts yourself at home, and then stove enamel the 'large parts' with an appropriate paint - duplicolor black 1634 ford semi gloss(if I remember correctly). The Manganese phosphate ingredients can be garnered from a a quality hardware store, and Youtube will have videos on the process - 'stove enameling' is essential an oven baking of an enameling paint. As to whether the Brit L1A1's were manganese or zinc phosphate, I cannot say one way or the other - the paint was Suncorite(IIRC). Others will chime in - :)

From looking at them I would say Manganese, and if someone has the formula for Suncorite I could have it duplicated.

Doing park at home is iffy at best. I use 7 tanks (several heated) to get a good park finish after sandblasting.

canuck762
July 24, 2017, 20:14
Thanks for the feedback. Maybe I'm setting my sights too high for correct restoration.

Trypcil
July 24, 2017, 20:21
Yes doing it at home is going to be a challenge - and prep is of the essence, both in metal preparation, and in the rehearsal of the chemical process. Then I say if the Manganese coating is to be painted, as long as the relevant parts are fully coated, any density blotches will be hidden - I suppose! Or, you could farm out the endeavour, and be done with it!:)

https://www.eastmidcoat.com/suncorite-is-now-bonderite/

enbloc8
July 25, 2017, 12:59
Australian rifles were phosphate-finish-only until 1972. They were paint-over-park after that.

SAFN49
July 25, 2017, 13:02
https://www.eastmidcoat.com/suncorite-is-now-bonderite/

Good luck getting that shipped over :wink:

East Midland Coatings Ltd
Barleyfield
Hinckley Fields Industrial Estate
Hinckley
Leicestershire LE10 1YE
Tel: +44 (0)1455 619176

Trypcil
July 25, 2017, 14:28
Yes but they are partners with Henkel!

http://www.henkel-adhesives.com/industrial/brands-5497.htm?redDotUID=8000000380&parentredDotUID=null&BU=industrial&countryCode=com&brand=000000037Z


;)

ALL FAL
July 25, 2017, 15:46
Thanks for the feedback. Maybe I'm setting my sights too high for correct restoration.

Most here like to "Do it right" seems like you are on the right path.

Guy-epic
July 25, 2017, 18:30
So I can totally appreciate wanting to restore something to its prior glory, I have been involved in many vintage car restorations that got a bit out of hand trying to make them perfectly original. Mind you there are many things that look exactly the same, or are covered (like the metals park that is painted over) that we simply have extremely better products we can use. Early sports cars from Maranello Italy didn't have the kinds of paint we have today. You can duplicate the completed job that likely looks better then it did 50 years ago very easily, and it lasts longer. Is it right to do so? I have often wondered when involved in these projects what is right? Is it best to have shock absorbers that are 40 years old rebuilt, and restored to exactly what they were, when you can get a better performing unit that looks the same? I guess it depends on how deep your pocket book is? I have seen thousands of dollars spent on doing that only for the owner to be disappointed with performance, or road noise! Ugh

Invictus77
July 25, 2017, 18:41
Guy-epic brings up a question I had in my own mind.

If you plan to paint it anyway with a high quality baked on finish and the reality is you are probably making a safe queen and/or range toy, not something that is expected to be on the battle field the next few years or truly an original collectible, is there any realistic advantage to parking before painting?

That is a question not a statement. Enquiring minds want to know.

Trypcil
July 25, 2017, 21:29
This is two dunks in a home made manganese phosphate solution - made from Kleen phosphoric acid, manganese dioxide from a carbon zinc battery, and some wire wool! Cost was about $25 in materials! Its OK and I will give it a couple more dunks! No sandblasting just depainted, and rubbed with wire wool!

http://i.imgur.com/wKaAc3Cl.jpg?1

its a beat up old Brit lower that i got from some geezer here a couple years back, for a 'special purpose' that rendered me some cash...... another story! It will be painted and stoved - and yes the s/no needs re engraving - it serves my purpose, and an example of what can be done! Flame on!

SAFN49
July 25, 2017, 21:55
Guy-epic brings up a question I had in my own mind.

If you plan to paint it anyway with a high quality baked on finish and the reality is you are probably making a safe queen and/or range toy, not something that is expected to be on the battle field the next few years or truly an original collectible, is there any realistic advantage to parking before painting?

That is a question not a statement. Enquiring minds want to know.

Yes zinc phosphate builds a highly crystalline structure on the surface, more so than manganese phosphate, that enhances coating (paint) adhesion while providing a corrosion resistant barrier between the metal substrate and the coating. All coating are porous to some degree.

Trypcil
July 26, 2017, 10:28
Both zinc oxide and manganese dioxide(will be carbon contaminated) can be either made or acquired from zinc carbon batteries. The zinc can be heated until it burns(greenflame) leaving a white residue - ZnO. Both ZnO and MnO2 can bought for pennies off the 'net!

Nothing ventured, nothing gained! Don't be scared off by the notion of failure - Parkerising can be done in the garage with relative ease - to paintable standards! Painting also is a relatively simple process.
That aside, the easy way is to pack the parts up and ship them all to a builder, to do it all for you - there are many here that do excellent work, who will oblige - allways use a Fal savvy smith.

However you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear - the wood is scare, the plastic is usually used. By that I mean putting lipstick on the Sow, and dressing it up in rags, isn't really returning the Rifal to its original form - unless you only want a safe queen!

Plus, if you only want/need One Fal, there must be something wrong with you!:biggrin: