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planemarty
July 17, 2017, 14:08
Can anyone get me in contact with someone who could access these records? I'm trying to research a G-3 that supposedly was imported by H&R when they partnered with HK in the 60's. Supposedly, these are original HK rifles that were part of the H&R museum that were later sold. I know at least two exist. The two I have seen are identical to each other and have some odd quirks you don't normally see.

The selector is marked Safe, SA, FA, the Bolt carrier has thumb grooves to push it into battery, the receiver around the trunnion is beefed up like it is designed for the heavy bipod. All these features mirror features found on the T223 (HK 33 used by SEALS in Vietnam. A few other weird features are the cocking handle and bolt carrier connection. The bolt carrier has a section in the front with a smaller diameter that seats into the cocking handle. The furniture is always green with a slimline stock and both examples I have seen had a buttstock with a different color parkerization than the rest of the rifle.

I've seen paperwork on one of them and the maker is Heckler and Koch GMBH,Oberndorf-Neckar Germany.

The URL below shows some example photos:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/OcHJ6jlfblHGoxr83

gunplumber
July 17, 2017, 18:16
I've done some work for the HK museum - I've forwarded your request. No promises.

21HK
July 18, 2017, 00:16
I don't have too much more on these G3's than you've already posted. Yes the collar on the G3 is for a heavy bipod but not the same style that most are use to seeing. The collar is permanent to the receiver and the bipod would latch just as it would on the T223. It has a single spring loaded catch that latches behind the wide part of the collar and the legs would fold forward toward the muzzle when closed. Since the collar is fixed the wide hand guard will not fit, hence the slim line hand guard.

I see the odd shaped cocking handle but what I think your referring to about the bolt carrier fitting into the cocking handle may be a very long cocking tube support. There is no way that the carrier tube would seat into the charging handle as if it were attached to it. All seems very odd for a full length G3 if that's the case. The photo is clear enough that you can't see a standard cocking tube support, cocking tube gap or the nub that is on the front end of a standard G3 bolt carrier tube.

Please update in your findings, hopefully gunplumbers contacts will come up with something. With the few remnants of the H&R / HK rifles that remain there is probably fewer people that have or know the information that your looking for.

I've tried without success to contact someone at the Institute of Military Technology (aka, Reed Knights collection/museum) about some information regarding the T223 rifle...never got any response. If anyone it would either be them, Dan Shea (Long Mountain Outfitters) or Ian McCollum (Forgotten Weapons) that might be able to provide some insight.

The other odd feature concerning the G3 in your link, no H&R or HK import markings? The T223 was marked.
I remember seeing those pics of the G3 a few years back, it was on Gunbroker for quite a while.

Here's a close up of the latch on the bipod that would fit that style collar. As with any of the HK bipods, the .223 has a shorter leg due to the length of the hand guard. If they actually made one with longer legs for the G3 I don't know, never seen one.

http://i.imgur.com/iFSV1LB.jpg

gunner30
July 20, 2017, 09:48
I didn't know that H&R ever had a museum?

planemarty
July 20, 2017, 11:18
There are original uncut M-14, M16A1's, T223's, and supposedly G-3's like this one that all came out of H&R before they shut down. I- like others want to track the history of this and info is extremely elusive on the subject. I believe these G-3's are 100% legit German HK YMMV when it comes to that. I know the examples I've seen didn't have any manufacture marks indicating conversion.

VALMET
July 20, 2017, 11:30
There are a few (very very few) semi G3s that were brought in at the end of 1959 for what I believe was a pilot series for civilian sales. I'd guess that Interarms is who imported those. One changed hands in the 1990s and I haven't heard about any of the others.

planemarty
July 20, 2017, 11:32
[QUOTE=21HK;4452092]I don't have too much more on these G3's than you've already posted. Yes the collar on the G3 is for a heavy bipod but not the same style that most are use to seeing. The collar is permanent to the receiver and the bipod would latch just as it would on the T223. It has a single spring loaded catch that latches behind the wide part of the collar and the legs would fold forward toward the muzzle when closed. Since the collar is fixed the wide hand guard will not fit, hence the slim line hand guard.

I see the odd shaped cocking handle but what I think your referring to about the bolt carrier fitting into the cocking handle may be a very long cocking tube support. There is no way that the carrier tube would seat into the charging handle as if it were attached to it. All seems very odd for a full length G3 if that's the case. The photo is clear enough that you can't see a standard cocking tube support, cocking tube gap or the nub that is on the front end of a standard G3 bolt carrier tube.

Please update in your findings, hopefully gunplumbers contacts will come up with something. With the few remnants of the H&R / HK rifles that remain there is probably fewer people that have or know the information that your looking for.

I've tried without success to contact someone at the Institute of Military Technology (aka, Reed Knights collection/museum) about some information regarding the T223 rifle...never got any response. If anyone it would either be them, Dan Shea (Long Mountain Outfitters) or Ian McCollum (Forgotten Weapons) that might be able to provide some insight.

The other odd feature concerning the G3 in your link, no H&R or HK import markings? The T223 was marked.
I remember seeing those pics of the G3 a few years back, it was on Gunbroker for quite a while.

Here's a close up of the latch on the bipod that would fit that style collar. As with any of the HK bipods, the .223 has a shorter leg due to the length of the hand guard. If they actually made one with longer legs for the G3 I don't know, never seen one.








This G3 could be early enough it didn't need import marks. I have original H&R posters about the partnership with HK. The T223 is pictured prominently and the G-3 is there but no details are available. The T223 was pushing to compete with the M-16 and I believe H&R actually manufactured them (can anyone confirm?) hence they would be marked with H&R. I think the similarities in the two models could be H&R asking HK for certain factory mods. This is a time I wish Aberdeen Proving Grounds Small Arms Museum was still around.

planemarty
July 20, 2017, 11:39
This rifle would have to be from somewhere between 1963-1968 to be devoid of import marks. The March 1962 G-3's have a different connection where the cocking handle tube meets the front sight.The tube on those had the same diameter for the entire length. This has the later style "free-floating" cocking tube that necked down at the front sight.

Valmet- That's the first I've heard of any G-3's that predate the 3/62 rifles. Thanks for the info!

VALMET
July 20, 2017, 11:42
When I say few, I'm thinking like less than 10 guns. Rifle that sold 20ish yeas ago was marked 9/59 IIRC.

gunplumber
July 21, 2017, 07:37
Our good friend T Mark has eluded to the "fact" that he was xalled upon to do work for "the HK Museum". I am dieing to find out just exactly WHAT museum he is trying to casually pass off that he did work for.
Maybe he will be good enuf to step up and give us some positive statement of just where his museum quality work can be viewed.
What say ye marky?

I see you've crawled back from your last bitch-slapping - begging for more, are you?

I've been a subcontractor for the HK repair department for around 25 years. They were one of my first customers. A friend of a friend and one of my mentors in metal finishing, went from Hereford* to HK training, and got me an opportunity to show what I could do. Now, it's no secret that if you send a rifle to HK for refinish, they send it to me. And when the guys (and gal) from the HK repair department came out to Yuma for some testing, I drove down to meet up. It's not a big deal, they are people just like any other company. Heck, I've got a small order in from Ashburn right now. Anyway, last year I did a G3k that was destined for the HK museum.

So when Planemarty asked about an H&R import G3, I'm like "hey, I know a guy . . . let me see if I can help." 'Cause I'm awesome that way. My guy just might know about rare HK imports, or have access to those records.

And as usual, you post your smarmy bullshit, just begging me to once again put my boot up your ass. So go f-ck yourself, loser.

*Hereford is a place in England where there are some guys who historically like the MP5 and the G3K - this guy played with one at Prince's Gate. My guy was their POL supplier. 10 years later, that guy was working for the HK training division, and my guy had immigrated to Phoenix by way of South Africa. So it was no big deal to pick up a phone and say "hey guys, we've got a finish here that matches your factory finish -except better. Send us some stuff . http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article147135.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/storm-on-the-iranian-embassy-402303162.jpg. They did, they were happy with my work, and the rest is history.

planemarty
July 21, 2017, 09:31
Michael-

Thanks for taking over my request for information thread for a trolling attack on someone willing to help. Do me a favor- Take this pettiness to a PM if you want to fight. I genuinely want to gather information on some odd rifles and don't need you pulling it off topic.

Thanks!
Marty

21HK
July 21, 2017, 10:59
....:whistling:


This G3 could be early enough it didn't need import marks. I have original H&R posters about the partnership with HK. The T223 is pictured prominently and the G-3 is there but no details are available. The T223 was pushing to compete with the M-16 and I believe H&R actually manufactured them (can anyone confirm?) hence they would be marked with H&R. I think the similarities in the two models could be H&R asking HK for certain factory mods. This is a time I wish Aberdeen Proving Grounds Small Arms Museum was still around.

If your referring to the goldish, yellow poster that shows large .223 rifle angled in the center, the artist rendition of that gun is somewhat obscure. The mag well is ribbed like the .223 and shows the early style .223 magazine but that's about where it ends, could be that this illustration was pre T223? It's lacking the collar for the bipod that is oddly mounted to a G3 metal hand guard. The hand guard shows two rows of vent holes, 5 on top and 6 on the bottom, this would be the same hand guard that fits a standard length G3. The lower is the standard SEF and not showing the bolt hold lever. The butt stock is shown with a two push pin configuration like a G3.

The bolt hold open device can be seen on the two rifles at the 7 o'clock position, just in front of the trigger inside the trigger guard.

http://i.imgur.com/vIZVEta.jpg

H&R was never considered a licensed HK contractor to actually build their guns. The collaboration with HK started back as early as '63/'64.
Also noted in the book; Full Circle, "Despite the wording, H&R had nothing what so ever to do with the manufacture of the T223, which was fabricated and marked entirely in Germany"

They also had their name branded on the T-48. The FAL.


This rifle would have to be from somewhere between 1963-1968 to be devoid of import marks. The March 1962 G-3's have a different connection where the cocking handle tube meets the front sight.The tube on those had the same diameter for the entire length. This has the later style "free-floating" cocking tube that necked down at the front sight.

Valmet- That's the first I've heard of any G-3's that predate the 3/62 rifles. Thanks for the info!

Considering the G3 in your link and the T223 share the same bipod collar I would think they were both made around the same time, circa: 1965ish and agree that it came here prior to the GCA in '68 whereas no import markings were needed....I forgot about that.

Another theory on the G3 above (thinking out loud) is that if it came in but not as an import to stay here. More along the lines of a T&E loaner for testing and evaluation, something that it should of been returned but never was? I don't know when HK started physically marking their guns with a T&E stamping.

michael_g927
August 07, 2017, 21:01
Just checking to see. Exactly as i thought it would be.

gunplumber
August 08, 2017, 09:15
Sorry, no luck.

----------

Dear Mark,

Sorry for the delay in responding to your request as i have been out
on the road/teaching the last couple of weeks.

I don't think that I will be able to offer any assistance on the
subject due to the time frame (early sixties) and the fact that it appears
that the G3s were imported by H&R. I don't what records your friend is
looking for but i assume they would be the importation documents?

Let me know if you have any more detail and I might be able to make
some enquiries.

Regards,

(Embedded image moved to file: pic00491.jpg)

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planemarty
August 09, 2017, 09:59
Gunplumber-

Thanks for trying. Yes- I'm trying to get a pedigree on the gun. There are so few and no records makes it difficult to do.

wanneroo
August 14, 2017, 20:09
Who knew this could be such an exciting thread:D

OLDMANPBK
August 14, 2017, 20:26
I like the other one better. There's a guy selling popcorn. :biggrin:

OLDMANPBK
August 14, 2017, 20:33
Found some. :popcorn:

nwobhm
August 14, 2017, 20:39
Fixed

hkshooter
August 14, 2017, 20:55
Smells so much better around here. :]

Like popcorn and Hoppes 9.

VALMET
August 14, 2017, 21:45
Smells so much better around here. :]

Like popcorn and Hoppes 9.

Like absolute heaven...