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Slo cat
June 13, 2017, 09:42
I have a couple of AR's, a older style White Oak Service Rifle, Criterion barrel & Giessele trigger, and a M4 flat-top.

I plan to attend the Front Sight 4 day Tac Rifle course in the Fall and would like to configure one of these AR's to do well in this course. At my age, 70+, I will have to mount optics. Yes, I considered taking a FAL, and maybe I will in future classes.

At the conclusion of the class, there is a test where if you get 90% or more, you get a Distinguished Graduate certificate, which is required to attend the more advanced classes. This test includes shooting from 15-200 meters under time pressure, timed reloads and malfunction clearing, types 1-3.

What are your suggestions? Optics, mounts, ambi controls, stocks, fore ends, slings, etc.? Recommendation from those of you who have attended similar classes is appreciated.

Regards,
Slo cat

hueyville
June 13, 2017, 09:53
If the carry handle is not fixed on the service rifle remove and add optics. If fixed carry the flat top. Scope with a 1-6x tactical scope and red dot mounted on top ring or 45% off top of rifle next to scope. For wide range of CQB to 250 meter varied targets use either a 16" or 18" 1:7 or 1:8 usually White Oak, Burris mount with Vortex 1-6x Strike Eagle or Leupold 2-7x and Burris Fastfire sitting on top. With the wide ranging scopes and a red dot in case engaging 150 meter plates then get suprised with a 25 foot pop up can transition from scope to red dot almost instantly. A 3.5 pound single stage trigger would be my choice shooting under stress. No super light or two stage unit. Have fun ol man.

Edit:
My favorite ammo for such shooting is the Tubbs 5.56 DTAC with 69 grain SMK's. Under 300 meters and 77 grain is not needed and the DTAC is relatively cheap and super consistent and accurate. 100 count boxes are $70. Just had a big box arrive for a controlled test of multiple rifles and the 1:8 and 1:9 twist are not as happy with 77 grain bullets. 69 grain SMK's have good ballistic coefficient and velocity for mid range work.

Slo cat
June 13, 2017, 13:21
My Service Rifle has the fixed carry handle. Do you recommend any of the scope mounts that fit on this? Or just ditch it and go with a flat top?

I like the idea of a variable 1-5 or 6x. And the 45 degree off-set dot scope for fast, close in shooting. Any recommendation for the type reticle on the 1-6x?

Front Sight requires your trigger be at least 4.0 lbs. and they inspect for this. No problem with my Giessele trigger, as it already meets the 4.5 lb service rifle rule (but it feels like 2.5 lbs). And they have a strict rule requiring new factory ammo only, no reloads. They recommend bringing 500 rounds for the 4 day course. What about shooting the cheap 55 gr ammo at 100 yds or less and saving the good stuff for shots over 100 yds?

There are a jillion slings on the market, any thoughts? What about aftermarket controls to aid in faster reloading and jam clearing?

hueyville
June 13, 2017, 14:19
Only carry handle rifle I have is a early 1970's SP1 20" with Colt 4x factory issue scope. If the flat top is accurate, lowering the scope closer to center axis of bore will aid a lot when dealing with ranges from 25 feet to 250 yards. Scope mounted that high acts odd if trying to be precise over wide operating range. Crap, if want to pay transfer fees and shipping both ways would consider loaning you a Mk 12 Mod 1 clone with White Oak 18" 1:7 twist, Leupold Firedot and Burris Fastfire. Guarantee it to run 100% and shoot 1/2 MOA to 3/4 MOA. Have three nice ones and all would have to decide is 1-6x, 2-7x of 4-16x on the scope and all have Burris red dots. Just built a second 18" 6.8 with two more 18" 6.8 barrels on deck and three more 18" 5.56 Wylde barrels on deck. Believe in the 18* barrel as best of all worlds. Have more 18" and 14.7" AR's than any other length. If want handy use 14.7", accurate 18" and 16" barrels are for when someone is running a good sale on them only.

Slo cat
June 13, 2017, 14:36
The fun part of getting ready is to configure, build, test and prepare for the class. So I prefer to DIY. I am even toying with getting a 300 BO upper to take with me.

I will test accuracy to make sure I have at least a 1 MOA gun for this class. It doesn't have to be pricey.

But the controls for the rifle have to be fast & smooth. Emergency reloads have to be done in 4.5 sec. and tactical reloads in 5.0 sec. Malfunction clearing for Type 1 need to be done in 1.6 sec., Type 2 in 1.8 sec. and Type 3 (double feed) in 8.5 sec.

jhend170
June 13, 2017, 14:46
As cheap as parts are right now I'd build a dedicated AR specifically for this, and make it good enough to be your go-to.

Build it light and minimalist.

Short of an extended firefight a pencil barrel will do you just fine. Their obvious disadvantage is what they do when you get them hot, typically stringing in a specific direction.

I'm a lefty so all my stuff is ambi. I find it smart no matter what though. Being able to do with your off hand what you can do with your dominant, and having everything be as mirror-imaged as possible is just smart. A good demonstration of this is your signature. I'm a left so I push the pen to sign my name. If I do it as a mirror image and sign my name backwards with my right hand they are quite similar. This is how your brain works, use it to your advantage.

I build everything with the Adams Arms piston system. The XLP is mere ounces heavier than a standard gas setup, and being a FAL guy you know the advantages of a piston. Keep the heat and nastiness outside the receiver.

I'd do it in 300BO. Even at my "tender" age of 47 I want to keep what hearing I haven't already screwed up, and the HPA looks to be getting a hearing (see what I did there???) tomorrow as part of a larger bill. If it passes I'm canning everything, and that's what the BO was designed for. From a combat mindset being able to hear your enemy is an advantage, and you can build a 10.5" BO pistol with a brace that can now be shouldered that is light and VERY handy. Inside 200yds it also makes much larger holes than a .223 does.

A 1-6x or a RDS with a swing-away magnifier are the way to go to me. For the $$$ I love Primary Arms glass. It's damned decent stuff at a reasonable prices, and if you tear one up your not out stupid $$$.

And that's my $0.02.... ok maybe $1.02.

hueyville
June 14, 2017, 08:02
Never had DI gun stop running in under a few thousand rounds without cleaning. Sending a piston gun at LGS back to manufacturer for third time due to broken parts. Nothing wrong with piston design in a rifle designed ground up as piston driven. Like dropping a Chevy crate motor in a Ford, bunch of unforeseen's to bite you. A properly built gas gun will have to be run at least 2,000 rounds without cleaning before see issues and have run them farther than that without cleaning. If your D.I. gun were to break while at class likely someone will have spare part you need in their kit. Will they have the right piston parts for a proprietary piston conversion? Doubt it, would only use a piston gun if had a second one to back it up or scavenge parts from. The gun we boxed up last week is an $1,800 POF, owner runs it hard but a gas gun would likely be breaking much less. It's suffered two bent piston rods and one broken bolt. Added complexity, extra weight, less accurate.

Also in general piston guns don't like cans along with not being as accurate and that is directly from Gun Digest. Yes they run cleaner and cooler but not first 100 rounds and how often are you going to run more than 100 rounds without a break? A properly done piston rifle can be acheived, do you have time to build, trouble shoot and torture test before your class? K.I.S.S. seems to do better for me. My last 5.56 gas build on 18" barrel is 1/2 MOA and my 6.8 build with 18" ARP barrel shot 3/4 MOA yesterday with my general use load and didn't have time to test multiple loads to see how well will shoot. Started Sunday after lunch and before dark was sighting in scope and red dot. Ran one mag dump yesterday just to make sure it would run hard without issue after sighting in then had to get back to working but sure it will run a lifetime.

https://gundigest.com/reviews/rifles-reviews/ar-15-gas-impingement-vs-piston

Slo cat
June 14, 2017, 10:03
Well, you guys made me do it. I just ordered a 300 BO upper for my AR. I've seen some awesome 100 yard groups shot with the 300 BO, and this is an easy upper switch. Ammo is a little pricey compared to the .223. But Crikey, you can't take it with you.

I've seen a few comments about the reliability problems of retrofits of the gas piston system for the AR, and also heard that the AR's that are originally built with this system are OK.

Having ambi controls makes sense to me. I plan on installing an ambi selector and charging handle. Anything else?

I am leaning towards a 1-5 or 1-6x scope. I am interested in what you think would be a good reticle for this type of shooting. I already have a Primary Arms RDS, but I don't think this will be precise enough for me to guaranty thoracic cavity shots at 200 yards. (At Front Sight, their targets show the thoracic cavity and you need to hit it every time on body shots to not loose points in their test at the end of the course. They also have some required head shots at 15 and 25 yards. These need to be in the marked on the target cranio-ocular cavity or you loose points.) Here is a pic of the FS target with some .45 hits shot at close range:
http://i67.tinypic.com/seszo3.jpg

hueyville
June 14, 2017, 10:58
Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6x at $299 is best AR fighting scope on market for money.

Edit:
Rolling me into operating room when made last post. In post op now. Smith M&P 15 with Vortex Strike Eagle and next picture front upper (6.8 spc II with ARP barrel) with Strike Eagle already mounted as don't have picture of finished rifle in my Tinypic account. Have at least three of these on finished rifles and not let me down. Two get used regularly and all have red dot on top for quick snap shots under 50 yards.

http://i65.tinypic.com/j63mf4.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/4sgqdy.jpg

Reticle:

http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/ret_strike-eagle_ar-bdc_moa-t.jpg

http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/sub_strike-eagle_1-6x24_ar-bdc_moa-t.jpg

http://preparedgunowners.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/vortex-strike-eagle-reticle-explained.png

Slo cat
June 14, 2017, 19:48
Hueyville, Good luck on your surgery recuperation. You have been through a lot.

Thanks for posting the Vortex reticles for the Strike Eagle. I find that at 1 power I can shoot quickly with both eyes open with a scope. The eye-catching reticle aids in this. And having a BDR at max power is great when shooting at distances up to 600 yds.

I've made up my mind to go with the 300 BO. I need to research how it drops at 200-300 yards. I don't suppose that this is a 600 yd. cartridge.

I can't help but wonder about the meaning of your FAL Files screen name. The Huey part always catches my attention because I use the fly this helicopter in the Army.

jhend170
June 14, 2017, 20:41
Well, you guys made me do it. I just ordered a 300 BO upper for my AR. I've seen some awesome 100 yard groups shot with the 300 BO, and this is an easy upper switch. Ammo is a little pricey compared to the .223. But Crikey, you can't take it with you.

I've seen a few comments about the reliability problems of retrofits of the gas piston system for the AR, and also heard that the AR's that are originally built with this system are OK.

Having ambi controls makes sense to me. I plan on installing an ambi selector and charging handle. Anything else?

I am leaning towards a 1-5 or 1-6x scope. I am interested in what you think would be a good reticle for this type of shooting. I already have a Primary Arms RDS, but I don't think this will be precise enough for me to guaranty thoracic cavity shots at 200 yards. (At Front Sight, their targets show the thoracic cavity and you need to hit it every time on body shots to not loose points in their test at the end of the course. They also have some required head shots at 15 and 25 yards. These need to be in the marked on the target cranio-ocular cavity or you loose points.) Here is a pic of the FS target with some .45 hits shot at close range:
http://i67.tinypic.com/seszo3.jpg

If you like the PA you like look into their new KISS reticle. Doesn't get much simpler, but still offers a little ranging ability.

http://www.primaryarms.com/pa1-6x24sfp-kiss

jhend170
June 14, 2017, 20:57
Just saw this in the MP

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415791

Slo cat
June 14, 2017, 23:21
If you like the PA you like look into their new KISS reticle. Doesn't get much simpler, but still offers a little ranging ability

I looked at the KISS reticle and at the Strike Eagle. Both look good, but I like the Strike Eagle reticle that Hueyville posted. I just found a Vortex Strike Eagle on eBay for $266 and ordered it. Thanks to both of you for your suggestions.

brunop
June 14, 2017, 23:52
Slo -

I've come to believe that red dots - no matter how expensive - are a poor second choice for a 1-4 or 1-6x scope. Lots of us that were running RDS at a 5K Run-n-Gun got hammered with fog, water, and mud, and DNFed stages as a result. This included civilians, ex-mil (civilians), and active duty 5th Group guys. So my new mantra is "Red Dot - when you don't have anything better." But I'll keep red dots on the house rifles since they're pretty cool for low light and snap shots.

I've had good success with the Vortex Razor 1-6x. Love it. Can't believe how clear, sharp, distortion-free, and wide/clean the field of view is. I own two. Hoping to buy more.

Kotengu has the Leopold VX-HOG scope 1-4, and he's been shooting it for years on the FAL that does 3Gun and the FAL match. Hasn't lost zero over thousands of rounds of .308 goodness.

I've got another buddy who has the Burris MTAC 1.5-6x. He absolutely abuses the gun and the scope, and hasn't been able to screw them up. It might be in the running for "Best Tactical Scope For the Money" contest.

Slo cat
June 15, 2017, 00:08
Slo -

I've come to believe that red dots - no matter how expensive - are a poor second choice for a 1-4 or 1-6x scope.

I tend to agree. Out to 50 yards a RDS can work well. But on one power, the variable optical scopes with the right reticle work well too.

I've had good success with the Vortex Razor 1-6x. Love it. Can't believe how clear, sharp, distortion-free, and wide/clean the field of view is. I own two. Hoping to buy more.

Yes, but you pay for the step-up, $1,400. I am not willing to pay this for a rifle scope to use in a class or maybe in competition, . . . . yet.

hueyville
June 15, 2017, 17:24
PHueyville, Good luck on your surgery recuperation. You have been through a lot.
(Trim)
I can't help but wonder about the meaning of your FAL Files screen name. The Huey part always catches my attention because I use the fly this helicopter in the Army.

Surgery was one of my regular Radio Frequency ablations. Done in three parts and have to have done at thoracic, lumbar & SI joint. Lumbar twice a year. That's 12 outpatients per year but if careful not to tweak something the nerve blocks and continued P.T. allowed me to get off and stay off oxycontin. Part of my life.

Huey is my nickname from childhood. Your probability old enough to remember the cartoon Baby Huey with the big overgrown indestructible baby in diaper that got into everything. Could get hit by a train and the train broke or break an anvil with a feather. Dad said that was me and pinned Baby Huey on me then by elementary school dropped the baby to plain Huey. Hueyville is the place in universe or state of mind that I reside. Do unto others, try to be decent, work hard and play even harder till broke neck, back and lumbar in two accidents and fractured skull in third then went through cancer now it's work much as possible and play a little. It's the non conformist, non American sell out to establishment where can make an honest living and enjoy life by taking 4 to 6 months a year vacation travelling the globe climbing mountains, now replaced by bringing gun hobby back to primary position and climbing as secondary but still work hard and play as hard as I can. Used to call wife and tell her heard Hueyville calling or had tickets to Hueyville and she only asked if she was invited, if so if needs to pack for winter or summer adventure.

Soon as my 24 hours of "no drive" following anesthesia went into office. Did post office duty, emails, OSHA, DOT and EPA compliance. Sorted parts for next two builds. Twins built on pair of White Oak Armament 24" 1:12 twist and 0.996" profile to gas block then drops to ~0.875" to muzzle with 11 target crown for launching 40 to 50 grain varmint bullets.

Stopped at LGS and picked up a 1-6x Strike Eagle for next 16" 6.8 project along with a Strikefire red/green dot for another WOA 13.5" 5.56 Wylde.

http://i68.tinypic.com/i1xikg.jpg

Pair of Vortex 6.5-20x arrived UPS today to go on the twin 24" 5.56 1:12 twist varmint zappers and Burris 4.5-14x for an 18" 6.8" Bison 0.996" profile heavy barrel 6.8. This covers optics for my next five builds, have these scopes on rifles now and totally happy with performance for money invested.

http://i68.tinypic.com/5ocmlj.jpg

Would love to sit Leupold VX-8's or Nightforce on top of all but as many builds as doing now someone would have to cut me some real deal to jump. Have top line optics in enough rifles if comes to needing to fight off zombies.

MistWolf
June 16, 2017, 09:29
Good grief, fellas! All of you should be smart enough by now to realize there's no such thing as a direct impingement AR. You should realize by now a standard AR already has a piston.

Slocat, don't over think this. A regular 16" AR is plenty good out to 200 yards and more. Ambi controls are nice, but not necessary for the kind of course you're about to do. I see you've already ordered an 300 BLK upper. Nothing wrong with the caliber, but it won't give you any advantage for the course. 5.56 ammo will be cheaper. No reason to use different types of ammo for the course.

Don't worry about not passing with a 90%. Front Sight wants you to attend (and pay for) the advanced classes. Unless you're a total klutz, you will be fine. Ambi controls, special uppers and offset sights are hardware solutions for a software problem. Unless you're programmed to use them, you won't benefit from the small, if any, advantage they offer.

The best AR for you to take is a 16" flat top with a 1x variable, sling and furniture you're comfortable with. Don't even worry about a free float tube. Keep it as light as practical. Sight it in at 100 yards.

To prep the rifle for the course, I suggest installing new, quality springs. Action spring, extractor spring and ejector spring. I know from experience Colt springs work. I know from experience the springs I got from PSA wore out fast. Check to see what buffer your rifle likes. Chances are, it's gonna want at least an H2 buffer. Clean and lube your rifle.

If your AR has an adjustable stock, find a length of pull you're most comfortable with. Then, set the eye relief of the scope to match it. If set the eye relief first, then the LOP, chances are it's going to be uncomfortable.

Just relax and enjoy the class. Take care of the details as outlined above before getting to class and don't sweat it. For spares, take a good second upper, if you've got it. Better still is a second complete rifle. Go through your tackle box and make sure you've got a few tools to work on the scope mount and perform minor repairs and maintenance in the field. Take something to clean the optics, to keep the rifle lubed and a rod to knock out any stuck cases. Steel cases get stuck more often than brass cases.

Take a hat you can wear under ear muffs. Maybe some knee and elbow pads. Take two pairs of shooting glasses, one clear, one tinted. Wear comfortable clothes you don't mind getting dirty. Take sunscreen and lip balm. Stay hydrated. Take a pencil & notepad. Wear comfortable shoes. Take a pair of shooting gloves. Take electronic ear muffs. Load your magazines before you go. Have a few loose rounds and a few empty mags.

Relax, enjoy the course and keep it simple

Slo cat
June 16, 2017, 17:43
MistWolf,

Some good points to consider. Thanks.

Have you taken the Tac. Rifle course at Front Sight? I see you are in Utah and are closer than I.

I have taken the 4 day Defensive Pistol course and the 2 day Skill Builder. In these classes, only about 15-18% pass the distinguished graduate test. I have seen shooters here held back by the firearm they use, thus my questions about rifle configuration for the tac. rifle class. Is the success rate in the tac. rifle class different than the defensive pistol course? My coaching buddy in the 4 day had taken the class four times and he didn't succeed the fifth time either because he couldn't accurately master a pistol with a double action first shot and single action follow-up shots.

kotengu
June 16, 2017, 22:34
Slo -

I've come to believe that red dots - no matter how expensive - are a poor second choice for a 1-4 or 1-6x scope. Lots of us that were running RDS at a 5K Run-n-Gun got hammered with fog, water, and mud, and DNFed stages as a result. This included civilians, ex-mil (civilians), and active duty 5th Group guys. So my new mantra is "Red Dot - when you don't have anything better." But I'll keep red dots on the house rifles since they're pretty cool for low light and snap shots.

I've had good success with the Vortex Razor 1-6x. Love it. Can't believe how clear, sharp, distortion-free, and wide/clean the field of view is. I own two. Hoping to buy more.

Kotengu has the Leopold VX-HOG scope 1-4, and he's been shooting it for years on the FAL that does 3Gun and the FAL match. Hasn't lost zero over thousands of rounds of .308 goodness.

I've got another buddy who has the Burris MTAC 1.5-6x. He absolutely abuses the gun and the scope, and hasn't been able to screw them up. It might be in the running for "Best Tactical Scope For the Money" contest.

Good stuff here. Remind me to look through your Vortex next time we're together. I've heard so many good things about them I may have to give in and jump from the Leupold ship.

hueyville
June 17, 2017, 09:27
Good stuff here. Remind me to look through your Vortex next time we're together. I've heard so many good things about them I may have to give in and jump from the Leupold ship.

One of the hardest things ever did was deciding to put something less expensive than a Leupold or U.S. made Burris that falls in their forever warranty on a rifle. LGS sold Vortex's buy the 100's without complaint or returns. When Nikon jumped into scope market had to have two based on lifetime experience with Nikon camera lenses. Both Gen 1 scopes failed fast and failed catestrophically. When Gen 3 hit market tried again and same results while others praised them but discovered most shot about as many rounds in a decade as I did in six months through a rifle. Finally LGS owner told me if would by a couple Vortexs, if they failed he would give full refund and deal with return. Bought a 1-6x Strike Eagle and a 6.5-20x Viper and tried to break them. Put the 1-6x on my short gas, short barrel FAL and the 6.5-20x on 338 Lapua. Beat crap out of the FAL pitching in truck, toolbox, shot piss load of rounds then moved to a 5.56 bump rifle and ran multiple mag dumps and beat it up more since on a Palmetto blem build. Broke out the Leadsled and shot all the 338 willing to as didn't want to hurt throat of rifle. Moved it to a 7mm Practical and really gave it a pounding. Moved it to an 18" AR and beat it, mag dumped and both original Vortexs are fine including electronics. Can buy the 1-6x for $250 and the 6.5-20x for $325ish. Same with Strike Fires and a range finder, can't kill them and lifetime warranty on electronics and scope.

I have not been to Front Site but get their weekly recorded call on my voice mail and emails all the time. The are super pimping their services, promise they will see you make it through if close. If borderline will likely pull you to side, give some help and let you re-run the course to get you to come back. Have been to Gunsite and they have never nagged me to come back, of course it was before email and Internet so likely not in their electronic database. As advised KISS, Mistwolf had great advice. I only buy ambi selectors if find on sale cheap. Just found a company with ambi charging handle conversion parts in steel for $4 each and bought their entire inventory. Often a scope will mount in way makes charging difficult so will be modifying a lot of them soon. That is one part might recommend to spend a tad extra on. I use Tubbs come silicon Flatwire buffer springs and H2 or H3 buffers according to port pressure and gas adjustment. Like heavy buffers. A $79 ALG or tweaked milspec trigger will cover most AR action shooting needs. Have a very specific tune I put on milspec triggers along with preferred springs. Don't use springs that come in Palmetto parts kits, who knows where they sourced them, don't care what brand just source from JP, Wolff, Tubbs or any quality vendor and 5,000 rounds from now will be glad you did. I buy Palmetto BCG's then pull their bolt and replace with a White Oak Armament or ARP. The original bolt goes in pistol grip with a spare firing pin and repair kit.

Make sure rifle runs 250 rounds flawlessly before you go and it will be proven and you will be tuned to it. I traded off every one of my 300 B.O. barrels. Don't have a one. 5.56 and 6.8 cover 95% of my AR needs now. Wife has a pair of 5.728's and I have a pair of 22 Nosler's for long range varmints. After seeing the third 300 BO magazine stuck in a 5.56 rifle at local range decided I didn't need to be one of those guys. Just mark your mags well so don't accidently have a brain fart at range some day when have a 5.56 and 300 same day. You will do fine at course. It's designed to train people to pass if have any basic skills at all. Found a great place in South Georgia with a NLF Kill House and lots of outdoor courses for handguns and rifles.

Slo cat
June 17, 2017, 19:59
I have not been to Front Site but get their weekly recorded call on my voice mail and emails all the time.
When I activated my membership, I started getting lengthy FS emails almost daily. I then started sending them to my spam filter and in a couple of days, FS emailed me they were taking me off their email distribution. Yay! I never got on their phone list. ??


Make sure rifle runs 250 rounds flawlessly before you go and it will be proven and you will be tuned to it.

Thanks, good advise. I also will bring a back-up rifle.

You will do fine at course. It's designed to train people to pass if have any basic skills at all.
In taking two FS courses, I have seen they will not give you a pass for attending. Their more advanced pistol courses require you to be a Distinguished Graduate (90%). I estimate at my first class that about a third have taken the course previously. So this is their method to screen out duffer-level shooters from their more advanced courses. You just have to keep retaking the basic class until you get good.

My Vortex Strike Eagle arrived today. What a brick! It weighs in at 18+ ounces. But I found that Vortex has an excellent Long Range Ballistic Calculator on their site: http://apps.vortexoptics.com/lrbc/ Watch their tutorial video here. Their calculator app even has a feature that lets you print out range cards to tape to your buttstock for your special load. I will be using this to figure out line of sight crossing points with the 300 BO so that I won't have to hold off too much at 300 yards, once I decide what weight bullet to shoot.

grumpy1
June 17, 2017, 20:04
Would love to sit Leupold VX-8's or Nightforce on top of all but as many builds as doing now someone would have to cut me some real deal to jump. Have top line optics in enough rifles if comes to needing to fight off zombies.

While I do like the idea of having lots of weapons there comes a point when more is just more and does not give you an advantage. If I were in your shoes I'd save my money up to put better optics on my guns rather keep buying more parts and guns. How does that saying go, fear the man who owns only one gun because he most likely knows how to use it.

I use to have a multitude of different guns, Glocks, Sig Sauer, Beretta, 1911's, S&W autos, etc. However, after one of the shootings I was in, I took a hard look at what guns I had. See, I realized that many of my fellow officers didn't know the condition of their handguns. Many didn't even know if their safety was on or off. Many of these same officers were like me and had many different guns. It woke me up and made me realize that even though I would like one of every thing it's not practical.

Slo Cat, I would agree with what has been said Front Sight just wants you to keep coming back so they can take your money. I think it's the old bait and switch scam. But I wish you the best of luck at Front Sight.

Slo cat
June 17, 2017, 20:11
Slo Cat, I would agree with what has been said Front Sight just wants you to keep coming back so they can take your money. I think it's the old bait and switch scam. But I wish you the best of luck at Front Sight.Well, I attend FS classes tuition free. I thus contribute to the food and lodging industry in Pahrumph, NV, but little to Front Sight. I did buy a T-shirt there. :rofl: Definately not an old bait and switch scam.

hueyville
June 17, 2017, 23:01
While I do like the idea of having lots of weapons there comes a point when more is just more and does not give you an advantage. If I were in your shoes I'd save my money up to put better optics on my guns rather keep buying more parts and guns. How does that saying go, fear the man who owns only one gun because he most likely knows how to use it.

I use to have a multitude of different guns, Glocks, Sig Sauer, Beretta, 1911's, S&W autos, etc. However, after one of the shootings I was in, I took a hard look at what guns I had. See, I realized that many of my fellow officers didn't know the condition of their handguns. Many didn't even know if their safety was on or off. Many of these same officers were like me and had many different guns. It woke me up and made me realize that even though I would like one of every thing it's not practical.

Slo Cat, I would agree with what has been said Front Sight just wants you to keep coming back so they can take your money. I think it's the old bait and switch scam. But I wish you the best of luck at Front Sight.

I am a collector and shooter. Am immensely familiar with my carry guns. Only have two duty size pistols I carry, SIG 2022's and 1911's. While have four 2022's in 40 Smith and three in 9mm all function the same. Been carrying 1911's for 40 years. Shoot my 1911's on average three to four days a week and my 2022's at least twice a week. Also do dry fire drills most every evening with each. Am totally in tune with them and fire 300 to 500 rounds of handgun ammo a week. An AR 15 or two leaves house with me every day and gets fired one to two days per week. Have had AR's for 35+ years and fired regular. Any gun that's in my rack of tools is a varient of these or gets fired at least monthly. All are totally intuitive and muscle memory will bring any to bear without concious thought process. Yes, have over 30 AR's but they all work the same except some have red dots, some scopes and a few iron sights, doesn't matter, they are all natural extensions of my body. My M1a's and Mini 14's are shot regularly for 30+ years. My rule is no handgun goes on my belt for duty until I have fired 500 rounds without a failure to feed, fire and extract. If one hiccups during break in we solve issue and count starts over at zero. AR's must fire 90 rounds after gas and buffer system is tuned without failure except my exotics used only for sniping varmints such as 22 Noslers. If take a Nosler with me for zapping coyote and ground hogs there is a trustworthy fighting AR in lock behind my seat. I see no problem with being a collector and hoarder. Have a lot of nieces, nephews and two adopted sons that will all need rifles and handguns. Plan is to leave each a completely stocked vault.

Guarantee will never have a failure of duty weapon due to lack of familiarity. Every Saturday I fire 75 to 100 rounds through my primary church pistol and 25 to 50 through the backup (SIG STX 1911 and SIG Double Nickle Compact 1911) then clean, reassemble, lube and fire one mag load of my carry ammo so sure am on target with the hot defensive loads and reassembled pistols correctly. Wipe then down, load and holster. May miss one Saturday a month on occasion. Same with my 2022's, shoot my carry at least 50 to 100 rounds at some point during week, clean, lube, run a mag load of carry ammo then wipe down and holster. Do manual labor for a living and scuffing up nice 1911's doesn't make sense when working. If not working carry a 1911. Both are less than a second from first round on target if inside the 3 to seven yard training scenario that's most common.

Slo Cat is going to rock the rifle course. With advice above it would be a huge mistake to go with a new rifle but he has two regular use AR's, all he has to do is adjust his dope from 5.56 to 300 B.O. that will be easy, if hits low, aim higher next shot.

Invictus77
June 18, 2017, 06:08
I agree with Huey on the "get familiar with it" concept and I am the same with a 1911, and AR, or an 870. Three of the most common platforms in the world and I think I could pick up one anywhere, anytime and instinctively use the weapon. (yes I said "platform" :biggrin: )

This leads me to a question: Why ambi controls as many suggest? Why throw in a variable in choices of operation? I think one should learn to use it instinctively, the same way every time. I don't see any pluses with ambi controls, but see possible negatives.

Please discuss....

Slo cat
June 18, 2017, 08:49
This leads me to a question: Why ambi controls as many suggest? Why throw in a variable in choices of operation?

Please discuss....:facepalm:

Why have ambi safeties on a 1911? The real reason is for shooting practical pistol or rifle matches, where the scenario given states you must shoot from your weak side. Here ambi safeties can save you time.

And I didn't state in my original question, but was there in the back of my mind all along, I will probably also shoot this "tricked out" AR in some tactical rifle matches as well as taking it to Front Sight.

Now it is time for me to be taken out for my Father's Day breakfast. See you later.

hueyville
June 18, 2017, 11:09
All of my duty pistols that have safeties end up with ambidextrous safeties which is partially a habit from old days of shooting IPSC where would almost always hit a stage requiring weak hand shooting plus in a life or death scenario if say shot in shoulder of strong hand might not only lose use of that hand but drop your weapon. When pick it up with weak hand or draw backup want to be able to manipulate the controls absolutely necessary to make it go Bang.

http://i63.tinypic.com/1pdxmv.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/mspr6.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2yyb24g.jpg

On my AR's ambidextrous safeties are dependent on rifles primary role. Past few days piled up parts for next four builds. Three will get single side safeties and one will get ambidextrous safety. Two are 24" heavy tube 1:12 twist rifles for launching 40 to 50 grain bullets at scalding velocities at varmints. No need for dual controls. Other two are 6.8's with one getting an 18" heavy profile varmint barrel thus no need for dual side controls. One 6.8 build in group is getting an ARP SOCOM 16" barrel and set up with either a Vortex 1-6x and red dot or Vortex Viper red/green dot and cowitnessed sights but it has a dual sided safety already in its pile as being built specifically as a fighting rifle. Have built two AR's with ambidextrous magazine releases and bolt releases of which both got removed from both rifles. Accidentally dropping bolt on live round or magazine out of rifle when didn't mean to sucks so figured out those items were of no tactical advantage.

http://www.crowderinc.com/images/guns/AR15/Mk12Mod1clone001_small.jpg

Above rifle had a Magpul Bad Lever and ambi mag release which both came off after a couple informal combat course runs. On average one out of four AR builds get ambi safeties and that is directly proportionate to how many find on a super sale or came included in a bargain parts kit. My Franklin binary trigger rifles come with ambi safety and won't work without their proprietary safety. I like the ambi safeties that are full size on strong side and about half size on weak side. If was not a significant price difference would use them way more often.

jhend170
June 18, 2017, 22:18
I agree with Huey on the "get familiar with it" concept and I am the same with a 1911, and AR, or an 870. Three of the most common platforms in the world and I think I could pick up one anywhere, anytime and instinctively use the weapon. (yes I said "platform" :biggrin: )

This leads me to a question: Why ambi controls as many suggest? Why throw in a variable in choices of operation? I think one should learn to use it instinctively, the same way every time. I don't see any pluses with ambi controls, but see possible negatives.

Please discuss....

See post 6.

Invictus77
June 19, 2017, 05:16
See post 6.

Interesting points jhend. I also did not know weak hand was routine in IPSC as others stated. I love this place :cheers:

hueyville
June 19, 2017, 23:15
Have four computer work stations at work, two are set up for left handed mouse operation and two are set up for right handed. Past age 50 and if spend a full day clicking with right hand my carpal tunnel will flare up. Of the two computers set up for graphic design CAD/CAM programming one is a lefty other is righty. Spend most of time doing mouse intensive on screen drawing and soon as feel hand/wrist begin to hurt or go numb swith to other station and use other hand. Freaks some out as if in a hurry will sometimes position chair between them and be mousing with both hands, while one is manipulating a file or running toll simulation and clicking other till it slows up to render some effect and swivel back to the machine. When played baseball dad started me out as a switch hitter in little league. Have a couple of 1911 rigs that have a left hand and right hand holster. Generally use them when match up a pair of my right hand and left hand Randals. Amazing how expensive a left hand Randal "Curtis E Lemay" has become. One occasion it's fun to fill each hand and take turns engaging or pour fire from both and in peripheral vision see brass flying to left and right.

When out in field running impact drivers all day try to run left handed as much as right. Can write with either hand which is especially handy if break your strong hand and it's in a cast. Once a week minimum do a few weak hand pistol drills and it is amazing how quick shooters fatigue sets in weak handed. We had an active shooter enter our church and security got him down and out the door before he fired a round. Because he was a cop and gave some B.S. story was not taken into custody even though ex wife had restraining order and open case for domestic violence. Innocent until proven guilty. Two days later he went to her home where he killed her, chased her new boyfriend through back yard and killed him them as Sherriffs Office rolled into scene he was popping each through the supraspinatus tendon which is not protected by most soft armor and they dropped their guns unable to fight. This guy happened to be a very good ex military combat veteran, SWAT operator, competative shooter and was purposely incapacitating the cops as he tried to escape rather than kill them till realized was too many swarming on scene. Local Sheriff already shot through shoulder of his strong arm picked up his pistol with weak hand as had best angle and position and capped the guy in the head as his armor was proving difficult for multiple body shots by deputies to take him out of fight. Know three people involved and say if not for the well placed weak hand shot it firefight could have lasted much longer.

When I was at Gunsite in the way-back machine of very early 80's weak hand shooting was mandatory. Could break your strong hand wrist diving for cover, take a round in strong arm or only be able to engage threat from behind cover without exposing yourself with a weak hand shot. If not able to put shots on target in training with weak hand will not be able to do it under stress. In dealing with my wife's bone disease began developing tricks to keep her shooting more comfortably and without breaking bones in hand and wrist or shoulder with rifles. As guys returned from Middle East missing fingers, hands, dominant eye began building rifles to get them back out hunting. Figure if someone wants to nail me for helping a veteran alter his rifle the screw them. Had guy lost right eye but not adjust to firing left handed. Due to injured left hand. Put a picatinny rail adapter on top of his hunting rifle and a pair of 45 mounts for orienting accessories to left of scope like I did the red dot on this recent 6.8 build.

http://www.crowderinc.com/images/guns/AR15/18ARP5R002_small.jpg

Instead of scope on top it moved it to left of rifle, put rings on 45 adapters and it moved scope far enough left that with minor leaning of rifle and was able to shoulder and fire right handed without contorting neck to try and see through scope with left eye. Did the same with his AR and modified the buffer tube so butt stock was twisted enough so fit shoulder correctly and was not twisted while looking through scope. He was pleased as punch. Had another returning veteran whow lost pieces of his index finger and middle finger to just past first knuckle from finger tip. Put below trigger in his AR and he can shoot it with no significant issues now due to extended leverage and ability to use both nubbs.

http://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Elftmann-trigger-e1351620435676.jpg

Have helped a lot of handicapped people adapt guns or find right gun for situation. Like helping folks out, especially troubleshooting odd issues. Could likely turn into a business but don't have the heart to charge someone with a handicap to help them get back in the game. Anything can happen in a fight for your life. Being abe to shoot with either hand may be difference between life or death.

Slo cat
June 22, 2017, 12:21
I have completed the modification to my AR that I will be taking to the Front Sight 4 Day Practical Rifle course next Fall (yesterday the temp in Pahrumph, NV was 111 F.)

Installed is an Anderson 300 Blackout upper, on a Rock River lower, that has a Giessele national match trigger, at 4.5 lbs. I put on a Magpul adjustible buttstock. Also have an ambidextrous charging handle and ambi selector. As a test, there is a B.A.D. bolt release too. This will be tested and removed if I don't think it adds value. I still need to find a good sling. I have an ambi single point sling attachment installed too.

So far, I really like the Vortex 1-6x Strike Eagle reticle. I'll have to complete this scope mount, bore sight and then sight in, while trying different factory ammo to see what this barrel likes. Any suggestions on ammo?

Here are some pics:
http://i67.tinypic.com/200txyh.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/317fonp.jpg
http://i65.tinypic.com/1e5b0g.jpg
http://i65.tinypic.com/33nw8c6.jpg
http://i65.tinypic.com/2efpyps.jpg

ALL FAL
June 23, 2017, 00:41
Are you building your own ammo? I'd get some factory .300BO and some loads from guys that are already running the cal. 4X401 is into the blackout and loads quite well I hear. Good luck with your AR Fun.

Slo cat
June 23, 2017, 09:17
I will be shooting factory loads. Sorry, I was not clear on this. Front Sight requires all to use factory loads, no hand loads or remanufactured loads. So my inquiry is to see if anyone here has good luck with a particular weight bullet and a particular factory cartridge.

I'll have to complete this scope mount, bore sight and then sight in, while trying different factory ammo to see what this barrel likes. Bah! Nanny comments.

jhend170
June 23, 2017, 09:43
I like Freedom for the $$$. I'm fortunate to have their storefront about 2 miles from work so I hit them on occasion on my lunch break. Been a little more frequent with the remodel and nowhere to reload at the moment.

Have a hard time beating their new manufacture stuff at $0.56/rd for FMJ and $0.70 for 110gr ballistic tips (which I really like and keep the truck gun loaded up with).

They have both new and reman, never had issues with either. They come off the same assembly line, only diff is the brass. Seems they buy a $#!+ton of LC once-fired brass and convert it to BO for their reman as that's what I see mostly when I buy it. I know you can't use it there but for future reference.

https://www.freedommunitions.com/ammunition/rifle.html?hmt_caliber=300-blackout

Slo cat
June 23, 2017, 10:34
I like Freedom for the $$$.

Have a hard time beating their new manufacture stuff at $0.56/rd for FMJ and $0.70 for 110gr ballistic tips (which I really like and keep the truck gun loaded up with).

Thanks for the link. I am very interested in this Hornady 110 gr V-Max bullet. And Freedom has it available for a very good price.

W.E.G.
June 23, 2017, 10:58
One that you have vetted mechanically and which you have proficiency.

Is everyone who attends one of those classes a tourist?

Slo cat
June 23, 2017, 11:32
Is everyone who attends one of those classes a tourist?
This raises an interesting question. Based on my 2-time attendance, I would say that 95% of the shooters attending Front Sight are serious plinkers. That is to say, they are serious enough to take the trouble to enroll in a training course. I call them "plinkers" because few have ever participated in firearms competition of any kind. Even less can be said of the average FAL Files member, who is interested in our FAL rifle, but where less than one in ten have ever attended any serious firearms training (except maybe a CCW class) or any kind of firearms competition. Plinkers. . . . I base my Files estimate on my participation on this site and on meeting a lot of Files members at several annual FAL Fest get togethers at the Whittington Center. :fal:

Gary104
June 23, 2017, 12:35
Hard to beat a Vickers sling
https://www.blueforcegear.com/slings/weapon-slings

Slo cat
June 23, 2017, 12:44
Hard to beat a Vickers sling
https://www.blueforcegear.com/slings/weapon-slingsThanks for the link.

hueyville
June 23, 2017, 12:53
Midway has the Gorilla 147 grain standard ammo on sale right now at $0.85 per round.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/3477137395/gorilla-ammunition-300-aac-blackout-147-grain-full-metal-jacket

Midway also has the Gorilla 110 grain SMK'S Match ammo on sale as well at $0.94 per round.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/3477318630/gorilla-ammunition-300-aac-blackout-125-grain-sierra-matchking

Before gave up on 300 BO remember shooting some of it along with a box of their 125 grain match plus the 208 and 220 subsonic loads. The low power optic had on last 300 before repurposed it for a fast twist 6.8 could not shoot as accurate as ammo's ability due to 1-4x tactical scope and tired eyes not squeezing their full potential but both shot under 1" at 100 yards. If threw worst flyer out of each five shot group the 125's were shooting 5/8"-3/4" and the 147's and 3/4"-1.0".

I might get goofy and look at rounds in the 150 grain range then something like the Barnes 90 grain "open tip" (dunno why they don't call it a hollow point except think the O.T. design is more of a match accuracy design than optimized expanding bullet). Might also look at some of the super lightweight, high velocity frangible ammo as we are not concerned with putting down zombies but putting hits on paper, cardboard and steel. Idea would be find a good midweight accurate/affordable load for majority of shooting then a high velocity 80 to 90 grain lightweight that shoots flat and has same horizontal plane of impact. If fond a 147 grain that sighted in at 100 then mated with a lightweight that hits dead zero at say 150 yards for conversation purposes without scope adjustment keep mags organized and swap on long courses. Use the standard weight ammo for CQB and mixed range but if have a course where majority of shots will be past 100 yards work off ballistics table taped on opposite side of stock. K.I.S.S. option is usually the smartest and just take one ammo type after proven to work well at home but if can gain an advantage I will confuse things sometimes.

Got so deep into 6.8 and 5.56 tore down all my 20, 6.5 and 30 caliber AR's because the two did everything I needed out of a poodle shooter at the time. Use public DNR ranges a lot and third time saw someone Kaboom a 5.56 by inserting a 300 mag figured it might be me someday. Only reason adopted the 22 Nosler is saves building 22-250 AR 10 and cannot accidentally light a primer if drop a 5.56 or 6.8 mag in the Nosler nor either of those by slamming Nosler mag in them. Try to eliminate every chance for personal operator error that could have catastrophic results.

Slo cat
June 23, 2017, 13:44
Hueyville, thanks for the links and your experience in shooting the SMK's. Under 1" is plenty good enough for me for my class. SMK's do get pricey, don't they. I used their 77 gr and 80 gr .223 bullets for my old Service Rifle matches.

MistWolf
June 23, 2017, 14:34
Slo cat, if you can try a set of Slimline handguards on that AR. I think you'll find you'll like them much better than the round handguards. The Slimlines fit my hands better and will give you two or three inches more usable length. The will also cover the gas block better to protect your hands from burns.

Here are two of my ARs with Slimline handguards
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Liberty/DSC_0406_zpsb4ekprgz.jpg

We installed a set on a friend's AR that has a gas block similar to yours
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Liberty/NF001_zpshlwkyo1x.jpg

Your AR looks like it'll do just fine. Give it a good workout, sometimes BAD levers are problematic with certain combinations of parts. Make sure everything works right, especially the BAD lever, before you go.

Magpul makes a QD socket that's small and easy to install. I don't have a photo of it installed on my AR, but here's a link
https://www.magpul.com/products/msa-qd

It works great!
https://www.magpul.com/Admin/Public/GetImage.ashx?Image=/Files/Files/Images/Products/Slings/ACCESSORIES/MAG528/MAG528-blk-1-15.png&Width=1200&Height=700&altFmImage_path=/Files/Files/Images/Products/noImage.png&Format=jpg&Crop=5&Background=ffffff

Slo cat
June 23, 2017, 17:50
MistWolf, thanks for the idea about the handguards. Now, I won't need a Chickenmitt. :hobbesdancing: I already have an ambi single-point sling attachment installed.

MistWolf
June 23, 2017, 19:42
The Slimlines work great on a hot AR. We gave the Wolf Pup (the suppressed AR pistol shown in my post above above) a workout with the new binary trigger and heated things up to the point where the chamber area, gas block and suppressor would sear skin. I know, because I burned a finger through my own carelessness. The handguards were quite warm, but not uncomfortable to hold with bare hands.

Yes, I'm a fan

hueyville
June 24, 2017, 09:40
Built three rifles with BAD Levers and have three more new in package. One of three installed has been taken off and when/if pull the others out of vault will likely remove them. If run a mag totally dry, have to turn loose with weak hand to insert fresh magazine, slapping the bolt release afterwards to drop on top round is 30+ years intuitive and basically adds zero extra time to a reload as have to finger the BAD Lever. Buried two back in vaults just after break in and sight in but use number three a lot. Were triplets in Mk 12 Mod 1 loose clones. Put the Noveske barrel and one White Oak Armament back to be fresh if SHTF and need to start zapping zombies with 1/2 MOA 5.56 rifles that are 100% reliable hard as need. Can snap suppressor own, flip Switchblock lever/knob and run just as perfect with a can. If pull suppressor off a simple flip of switch and properly gassed for no can operation. Point of impact doesn't even move significantly enough to be an issue under 250 yards on zombie or deer size targets.

Kept one WOA out for general use and discovered if carrying with bolt locked back on live magazine or without mag when pitch rifle toward passenger side of truck they will often drop the bolt as lands on left side and lever hits something. Also had two instances running reload drills with lots of mag swaps (load 3 to 6 rounds per mag, mix up so don't know which is which and get to swap lots of mags in short time) where accidentally tripped the bolt release with trigger finger before new mag was fully inserted forcing me to go to charging handle with optic partially blocking though have medium width ambidextrous charging handles. Also if whack rifle hard enough against solid object the BAD Lever has enough weight and length for inertia to cause it to drop the bolt. Sure, a ton of training would likely fix that but then it becomes ingrained to point better put them on all my AR's. Except for occasional ambi safety lever and binary trigger prefer all my AR's

Not a 5.56 or 300 but most recent build with 18" ARP 6.8 barrel.

http://i66.tinypic.com/w7kj06.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/2924sq0.jpg

FAB Magwell/forward grip combo in FDE finally arrived. Had to order six FDE, three black and one O.D. Green to go with ones have to get all rifles missing them brought to spec and have enough for next four builds. This has become a must have. On the A2 length stocks it idps a great vertical grip if need but this rifle has a slim forearm as mentioned in a recent post. More I use slim forearms the more I like them. People go on about weight but this rifle with 18" barrel, (not pencil profile either) Lancer L5 magazine loaded with 10 rounds of 90 grain TNT's. 2.5-10x scope, red dot CQB optic beside scope and weighs an honest six pounds. There is even a spare bolt and firing pin in grip to make six pounds. Of course used one of my last Mag Tactical matched billet magnesium upper and lower sets. The uppers have become unobtainium though lowers are plentiful and cheap till run out of end of Mag built and Fostech starts making themselves.

The combo of magnesium receivers, SIG carbon fiber stock, lightweight slim keylock aluminum forearm, Lancer magazine and two piece Burris mounts for 30mm Nikon scope turned out light. Was not trying to build a lightweight and know lots of people work hard to build sub six pound rifles, this is that without any real effort. Tips scale an even six pounds with half loaded magazine as well. The 2.5-10x scope with 18" 5R barrel is proving perfect for SPR/SDM type rifle. Barely have to tilt to pick up the red dot and can shoot decently with both eyes open through scope at lowest power. 18" barrel is my favorite length for working outdoors and gives best velocity and accuracy in a rifle that is still maneuverable. This new rifle fell together perfectly and glad I got six of these stocks when found on sale and four of the forearms. Am going to probably order more when get some more parts funds, have enough for at least a half dozen builds without so much as a spring or a receiver pin.

Edit:
There are multiple companies knocking off the FAB Defense magazine well/vertical grip adapters and their BUIS Sights. Have about four or five of the fakes, one tried installing and screws stripped out trying to mount as thread into plastic instead of steel nut like genuine Israeli made. The fake BUIS sights wobble when raised and adjustments are crap. Have one set of them. Managed to get fake magwells from one vendor installed but they started popping threads in a couple months of use. They put company logo and model number on the fakes, don't understand how these folks don't get sued. Surfire way to tell is the real deal magwells always have the patent number under the logo and model information. Also most people who advertise as "U.S. Vendors" on fleabay sell knock offs. Either buy from reputable company like Midway or Brownells, etc or buy from Israel. It takes a week via standard mail from check out till they roll into my hands. Also get discount code for next purchase and free shipping. Just like flared magwells on 1911 race guns and other competative guns these add almost no weight, protect your lower from scuffs and banging around, speed up reloading plus if working in tight area can collapse a standard M4 type stock, use the magwell as forward grip and have rifle compact as possible. If tried one, many would be hooked on them soon as tried a few timed reloads and did a dry run structure clearing drill using as forward vertical grip.

Have taken to only buying 16" barrels if deeply discounted. An 18" barrel is 99% as maneuverable, more accurate in general and adds some velocity. My two favorite lengths are 18" and 14.5"/14.7" barrels. Tack weld or pin device in 14 dot whatever length barrels brings you to legal 16" with most of the muzzle devices I use. 14.7" with pinned device is almost every bit as accurate as a 16" and no real velocity difference, it's just an arbitrary number that BATFE put on a form saying it's shortest legal barrel length thus created a huge market for 16" barrels as most people want to be able to swap muzzle devices everytime they see some marketing campaign for some new magic device. If not putting suppressor on a rifle am really liking my 13.5" W.O.A. medium weight profile with Noveske Flaming Pig. Soon as thy have the 13.5's on sale again going to do another or two. My W.O.A. 13.5" out shoots many of my 16" barrels at 100 yards but don't want to SBR them. They have a deal on 12.5" barrels but am barrel heavy at present, parts fund low and would have to SBR them or put long muzzle device on them. Have more 14.7" 6.8's than any length, 18" in number two and about a tie between 20" and 16". With 5.56 now have more 18" builds and working on 14.7" acquisitions. Have big pile of 16" barrels but only two 6.8's are on the list to build in 2017. One because scored a deal on ARP 5R and another was a deal on a 1:7 fast twist barrel for subsonic ammo and only have one 6.8 sub launcher at present.

Slo cat
June 24, 2017, 13:47
Also had two instances running reload drills with lots of mag swaps (load 3 to 6 rounds per mag, mix up so don't know which is which and get to swap lots of mags in short time) where accidentally tripped the bolt release with trigger finger before new mag was fully inserted forcing me to go to charging handle with optic partially blocking though have medium width ambidextrous charging handles.

Thanks for the report on the B.A.D. lever. I'll give mine a try and take it off if it is not to my liking.

FAB Magwell/forward grip combo in FDE finally arrived. This has become a must have.

Just like flared magwells on 1911 race guns and other competative guns these add almost no weight, protect your lower from scuffs and banging around, speed up reloading plus if working in tight area can collapse a standard M4 type stock. Speeding up reloading has my attention. If I installed one, I would not use it to grip the front of the mag well, but I would use the straight left arm grip and hold on near the gas block. I saw one youtube review where they said that there was an area where between the FAB adapter and the AR receiver where a mag could catch. How smooth is the transition between the receiver and the FAB adapter? I looked at a lot of online photos and none of them clearly showed this area.

hueyville
June 25, 2017, 14:24
Have not had a problem but two cheap Anderson/Aero lowers used on I released the mag wells with a broaching tool in my lathe to remove the lip. Not willing to machine on the billet magnesium lowers but again, have not had a magazine catch on lip. One thing noticed is the lip is much more pronounced on the knock offs. Will try to get some good sharp pictures of each. It's less than a $20 gamble and if put on a collapsible stock, run with stick closed and left hand on forward grip then can transition around corners very well without exposing yourself any more than necessary. If I see a muzzle peaking around a corner in tactical situation soon as see hand and forearm extend will be really tempted to shoot a zombie through hand or wrist and why try to keep body parts tucked as close to body as can when clearing rooms. Doubt cardboard and paper will be shooting back. Also know a lot of people that love their BAD Levers, just be aware of its potential issues and make sure not a problem for you. Ergonomics are different for all and why I do so many odd modifications for handicapped people.

Slo cat
July 19, 2017, 20:43
I've swapped out some more parts on my 300 BO. Some of them are there on a trial basis, and I'll dump them if they don't add value. I added the Slimline handguards mostly because they facilitate the addition of a red dot, light and possibly a bipod. I plan to take a 2 day Night Rifle course at F.S. later. I am really doubtful about the small red dot mounted at a 45 degree angle on the right. I seriously think that the Vortex at 1 power will be faster, but I will verify this one way or another. Do any of you 3G shooters have an opinion on this? I only mounted this because I had one sitting around. Both the Vortex Strike Eagle and the red dot are sighted in. The red dot would only be used on close targets where speed in needed. I installed a throw-lever on the Strike Eagle. I don't know why the factory doesn't include one. They really should.

I found that the FAB magwell will not let my Magpul Gen3 mags seat because of a rear lip on the Magpul magazine, but the aluminum 30 rounders seat just fine. :confused:

I plan on timing reloading with my PACT timer, with the magwell and without. This will decide the fate of the FAB magwell. I plan on several range sessions to wring out the rifle and it's modifications.

http://i66.tinypic.com/3485yd1.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/wlw420.jpg

I plan on taking my Daewoo with an ACOG on it as a back-up rifle. But I will have to practice it's different manual of arms. The bolt charging handle is on the right, quite different from the AR-15. But the safety (I have a 90 degree one), mag release and the bolt release are the same.

http://i64.tinypic.com/wb8gp1.jpg

hueyville
July 20, 2017, 05:58
Looks like your FAB Magwell is a knock off. Three companies found selling copies cheap and they all suck compared to originals. Only way I can for sure get the real thing is to order from Israeli supplier and it will have the patent number in logo. When get time will post pics of three fakes and a couple of the real deal units. Everything about the fakes suck from screws stripping to mags not fitting, windows not lining up with serial numbers, etc. The real deal FAB are 100% better functioning. The red dot if doesn't speed you up is at least there if scope breaks or set at 6x for distant target and suddenly encounter a popper at 25 feet won't have to make scope adjustment..

Slo cat
July 20, 2017, 09:20
I saw your warning earlier about this and I got the Israeli one with the patent number on it on the left side. The serial number cut out lets me read the entire serial number of my RR lower. See http://www.ebay.com/itm/FAB-Defence-MWG-Ergonomic-Magwell-Grip-the-real-deal-made-in-Israel/282484250656?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Did I get ripped off?

0302
July 20, 2017, 13:34
seems like your rifle is getting cluttered. 200m isnt far to shoot, a 1x3x scope would do and still be used at 15m. the more crap on the rifle is more opportunity to have gear fail or lost. iron sights at 200m should be ok unless you have really bad eyes.

more junk = more problrms. 5.56 ammo from wallyworld will fly 200m no problem.

FALonious
July 20, 2017, 14:02
Vickers sling here http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417069

Slo cat
July 20, 2017, 21:56
seems like your rifle is getting cluttered.
Yes, it is starting to look cluttered. The magwell and the offset dot scope will be the first to go if I decide to streamline some. Trust me, I am 75 1/2 y.o. and my right eye has some scar tissue in the middle of the retina, so I need a scope. I recently did some testing at 100 yds. with a Aimpoint H-1 red dot and I can't keep my shots inside 12" with it, but can get decent groups with the 6 power Strike Eagle.

Vickers sling here Thanks, Lon. I saw that sling for sale. I already have a $15 padded sling that will do. At this rifle class, they don't teach shooting with a sling, it is just used for carrying the rifle around. I still have a JH Weller No Pulse SR Sling from my High Power days and could use this in their precision rifle class if I decide to take it later.

You all may ask, Why is a fart this old taking more shooting classes? I do it because it is fun, and I still can. And it is even more fun to whip most of the younger guys.