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W.E.G.
April 26, 2017, 18:43
Shot-out barrel for zombie apocalypse?

Made you look.

TLDR:
1. Barrel not “shot-out” at 4500 rounds.
2. I can’t point my short-line ammo any better than my long-line ammo.
3. 55 grain factory ball ammo really is teh suk.


Seriously, I’ve been pretty disappointed that the zombie apocalypse they promised hasn’t developed in a sufficiently timely manner to help me unload the umpteen gazillion rounds I hoarded since I was nine years old.

I still have half a box of .22 shorts that I bought in the 60’s.
Figured I should save some of them in case something specially needed to be shot with some shorts.

So, I’ve been shooting some of the surplus ball ammo of various flavors.

Moreover, I have two White Oak uppers that I’ve been working with. Both have the basic Wilson match barrel that everybody says is good for 3,000 rounds and then needs to be replaced.

OLD Upper #1 has about 4,500 rounds through it.
NEW Upper #2 has about 2,500 rounds through it.

I shot an 800 agg. this past weekend, and really stunk it up at 600 with the "NEW" (2500 rounds) upper.
This moved me to do some “testing” today at the 200 yard range.
All firing done by firing a shot, dropping the rifle from the shoulder, scoping, and then firing the next shot.
(E.T.A. PRONE with sling.)

Did not touch the knobs on the scope at all while firing the strings.
(But I DID spin the knobs to get at least close-to-center on a sighter target before shooting on each target for the pics below.)

I really don’t think there is anything wrong with NEW Upper.
I’m calling this weekend’s stink-show as being on me, and not the gun.
24.4 grains Varget and Sierra 80 SMK @ 2.400” OAL.
FWIW, the wide shot at 2 o’clock was shot #1, and the wide shot at 5 o’clock was the last shot (one of those sloppy “didn’t feel right” shots); and the widest left shot was wide-on-call.
This confirms what I’ve known about my own failings in slow prone, with sloppy shots tending to go right. Moral of the story for me, if the shot comes up off-call on the right, don’t mess with the sights unless the direction/intensity of the mirage backs up any temptation to chase the spotter.

Shoot-N-See SR center @ 200 yards
X ring 3.00"
10 ring 7.00"
9 ring 13.00"

200 yards – 80 SMK / 24.4 Varget – NEW upper
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/targets/upper%20comparison/80%20WOLF%20smaller_zps1bbrrwml.jpg

I’ve been “practicing” with the 4500+ “OLD upper” for offhand and rapids with Winchester 55-grain Q3131 ammo because I can’t find any zombies to shoot. I shoot an 8-ring sized group offhand anyway, so I figure I got nothing to lose if I use the Q3131 to harass the SR target during practice.

I’ve shot a few “groups” from the sling with the Q3131 from the OLD “shot-out” upper, and didn’t like the result on paper at all. Today, I used the OLD “shot-out” upper to shoot some of my “good” short-line ammo (24.2 Varget with 75-grain Siberian Sidewinder) to see if it printed as badly as the Q3131 ball ammo.

Wow. OK.
That shot-out upper aint so shot-out.
Reckon I better plan on using my short-line handloaded ammo if I have to make any technical shots on the zombies.

200 yards – 75 PRVI / 24.2 Varget – OLD upper
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/targets/upper%20comparison/PRVI%2075%20smaller_zpso9gvuyyp.jpg

So.

Just HOW BAD is that 55 grain factory ammo?

20 shots, slow-fire prone.

Yeah. Pretty bad.

200 yards – 55 grain Winchester Q3131 – OLD upper
(using a 100-yard reduced-600-yard center as a giant paster inside the 10 ring)
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/targets/upper%20comparison/Q3131%20smaller_zpskqbripyo.jpg

W.E.G.
April 26, 2017, 18:44
With the "OLD" upper.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/rifle%20pics/AR-15/service%20rifle_zps5ipdizkv.jpg

gordonm1
April 26, 2017, 19:14
That Q3131 was about the worst shooting ammo I ever bought.

Your groups look like what I might still be able to do with reloads and irons.

I was using 24g Varget with SMK 80's when match shooting a little under 2.4" OAL with a Krieger WOA upper.

I think my barrel in waiting is a Wilson from Midway. Not sure. Don't know the chamber but I'd think you could hit zombies in the head for more than 3k rounds. Keep enough loaded mags and you can do pelvic shots to slow them down while you reload if they are fast movers.

I'm curious how the 4 power scopes work on 100yd reduced courses with reloads? Do they help moving up the classes?

W.E.G.
April 26, 2017, 20:21
Anything that lets my old eyes not shoot 7's "that looked just like the X" I shot on the previous shot is a good thing.

But remember, even with a scope, it only shoots as well as you point.

yellowhand
April 26, 2017, 20:38
I can get 2 inch groups all day long with iron sights and surplus 55 FMJ's pushed with 26 grains of Win 748.:wink:
Your eyes acting up, cataracts off in the corner maybe???
They come on gradual and you don't really notice it as you adjust to them.

Invictus77
April 26, 2017, 20:38
I still have half a box of .22 shorts that I bought in the 60’s.
Figured I should save some of them in case something specially needed to be shot with some shorts.

My brother from another mother :bow:

W.E.G.
April 26, 2017, 20:48
I can get 2 inch groups all day long with iron sights and surplus 55 FMJ's pushed with 26 grains of Win 748.:wink:
Your eyes acting up, cataracts off in the corner maybe???
They come on gradual and you don't really notice it as you adjust to them.

20-shot groups.

55 grain FMJ's at 200 yards???

All inside 2 inches?

Reaallllyyyy?...

kotengu
April 26, 2017, 20:56
It really is stupid how well most ARS shoot. I want desperately to hate them, and I do - but then i actually shoot them and I grudgingly admit they are pretty dang amazing.

But it's hard on the ego when your rifle shoots where you point and always just works.

1769
April 27, 2017, 05:45
My AR is still new to me. What I do know is that factory loaded 55 gr. FMJ, PMC ammo does not group all that well. It is cheap though, and allowed me to zero the rifle. That's all that has been through this rifle at this point. I need to either sit down and do some reloading or pick up some decent stuff.

TenTea
April 27, 2017, 06:11
That is some nice shooting...I don't care who you are! :D

Anybody I know would be thrilled to shoot those groups at 200, awfulhand.

Thanks for the thorough report and I think your uppers are fine, for the time being, but you'll shoot out the bores eventually. :shades:

Carry on with all your good works.

W.E.G.
April 27, 2017, 07:57
I shot those groups off my belly with the sling.

If I could do anything close to that offhand, the National Champions would be sending me cakes and flowers.

I'm an 8-ring shooter offhand. Except when I flinch.

hagar
April 27, 2017, 08:33
I had a NM upper with close to 10,000 rounds through it, and it shot well enough for me to win the Charlotte steel plate match sniper trophy a couple of times. Had another upper with a Douglas barrel that was amazingly accurate till it wasn't at about 5000 rounds. Went from cleaning 300 to could not keep it in the 7 ring at 600 on the same day. Now has a new Douglas, but my eyes cannot keep it on target at 600 if I tried.

W.E.G.
April 27, 2017, 08:52
I will never again compete with an AR using iron sights.

20 years is long enough.

I'll still shoot irons on the relics for shits n' grins.
M14 team match Wednesday.

TenTea
April 27, 2017, 09:00
I shot those groups off my belly with the sling.

If I could do anything close to that offhand, the National Champions would be sending me cakes and flowers.

I'm an 8-ring shooter offhand. Except when I flinch.

:D Like I said, *thrilled to shoot those groups at 200!* :snoopy:

yellowhand
April 27, 2017, 09:32
20-shot groups.

55 grain FMJ's at 200 yards???

All inside 2 inches?

Reaallllyyyy?...


I wish, no 100 yards amigo, misread the the original.:facepalm::cry:

I can't see anything 2 inches in diameter at 200 yards, much less hit it.;)

kev
April 27, 2017, 10:33
I don't play golf, so maybe I'm missing the point of the thread,.......

Your pictures are VERY misleading. Partly due to the scale where the target of 55gr looks huge by comparison along with the reduced target overlay, but if I'm seeing it correctly it looks like the 55gr ball costs you 3 points and half a dozen X's. Is that the way you score?

Further guessing since there's little to scale from, but the 55gr group looks like more than 50% larger but less than twice as large? I'd think that would be outstanding compared to match bullet 80gr handloads in a barrel designed to handle them. Rerun your test with a 1:12 twist barrel and see how they compare. Those 80grainers will be death on zombies if/when they hit and go through sideways,.......although being "death on zombies" is a little redundant.

TenTea
April 27, 2017, 10:38
I don't play golf, so maybe I'm missing the point of the thread,.......



If we include the purchasers of US hunting licenses, more people participate in the shooting sports than do in golf, although you would not know it by the disproportional media coverage. :rolleyes:

I think the point is...even a barrel labelled as *shot out* is still plenty good for the pockyclips® with most any ammo.

hueyville
April 27, 2017, 10:41
This is my shot out zombie rifle barrel with 62 grain bullets at 25 yards. They pattern dead on point of aim as fired eight rounds at center of four orange squares.

http://i59.tinypic.com/9u0z1e.jpg

When swapped to 55 grain at 25 yards they were still stabilizing but at 50 yards look like the 62's at 25 yards. Funny how it acts because at 100 yards 50 grain varmint bullets hold about a six inch group still flying straight. It's a Colt 1:12 SP1 barrel some moron cut to 12.5" for an SBR build with hacksaw then crowned on worn out lathe. Dang thing is 100% consistent, 62's are tumbling and on point of aim till about 35 yards before start hooking and slicing. The 55's are on point of aim at 50 and gone any direction may choose by 75 yards. 50's hit point of aim at 100 and disappear from target by 150 yards and 40's shoot about the same as 50's.

Was going to tear down the upper and rebarrel then tested at 25 feet. 62 grain green tip are dead on paper at 25 feet but if shoot into gelatin or clay at 25 feet start tumbling immediately and take very odd paths. Could shoot a human in sternum and not be surprised if bullet came out bottom of foot or left ear. Sitting on my crappiest Olly lower (yes have a couple decent Olympics) and if ever know am going to be clearing a structure with all shots 10 to 30 feet may pick it up with load of green tips knowing it will turn zombies into ground beef like a bunch of high speed Chinese throwing stars. The thought of being hit with these spinning death bullets is terrifying to me. Rather have a good 1:9 barrel put a green tip straight through me than the zombie rifle spitting a twirling carbide tipped ballerina through me. Some day may use for good barrel but have enough receiver sets it's fun to hand to an expert marksman on occasion to frustrate them when trying to bounce Coke cans around a pit.

W.E.G.
April 27, 2017, 11:55
The problem with the 55's for marksmanship training is when a shot is called "a little right," and instead it comes up a little left.

That will have you doubting yourself.

hagar
April 27, 2017, 12:37
My latest attempt at 200 yards prone slow fire using a Burris AR332 on a NM AR with UBR stock, seems to solve my parallax problems I had with other scope.

I deliberately did not adjust the scope to shoot more right, did not want to be chasing my shots and rather wanted to see what size group I could shoot.

There are 20 shots in there, some doubles and triples.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18198284_10211944793991206_8515197350689310361_n.j pg?oh=cce57b6cbf70bd080505def9aa713d80&oe=598F49D8

W.E.G.
April 27, 2017, 12:46
You gotta get this notion that parallax has anything to do with the performance of the small-front-lens scope legal for service rifle.

If you have any doubt about that statement, run your numbers, and explain.


https://www.lelandwest.com/parallax-error-calculator.cfm

hagar
April 27, 2017, 13:17
Didn't say it was a LEGAL scope I used before, Weaver Tactical 2.5-10x50mm. Great scope for bipod shooting, not so good a choice for when you have limited space between the buttstock, the scope, and your eyes, and the view you see looks like a 3/4 moon.

Tried a bunch of other somewhat legal scopes, Weaver Kaspa 1.5-6, Vortex 1-4, Bushnell FFP 1.5-6. None of them gave me a clear picture at 200 yards, could not get them in sharp focus.

These prism scopes just work for me. Never would have considered one until a friend had me try his, and I was amazed by how clear and focused it was.

W.E.G.
April 27, 2017, 13:34
if I'm seeing it correctly it looks like the 55gr ball costs you 3 points and half a dozen X's. Is that the way you score?


You aren't seeing it correctly.

In the pics above, I was shooting on the offhand/sitting target (NRA "SR" target) because Shoot-N-See makes 200-yard centers for the offhand/sitting, but does not make "reduced" 200-yard centers to simulate 300-yard or 600-yard. My range has so much mirage, with the targets so low to the ground, I cannot see the bulletholes reliably, even with my 24x spotting scope at 200 yards unless I use a Shoot-N-See center.

To give you an idea how many points would have been lost by using the 55-grain ammo in a reduced-distance National Match Course, here is a pic of a correct 600-yard-reduced (prone) target alongside the 200-yard offhand/sitting target.

I'm actually glad you asked. I didn't include this comparison-pic initially because I figured it would be a TMI distraction. Your query puts this in context.

600-yard reduced target on left ----- normal (not reduced) 200-yard target on right
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/targets/upper%20comparison/Untitled_zpskv6niols.jpg

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/targets/upper%20comparison/Q3131%20smaller_zpskqbripyo.jpg

W.E.G.
April 27, 2017, 13:38
Competition ammo needs to hold the 10-ring as a bare minimum.

You can see the 55-grain ammo barely holds the 8-ring on the prone target.

meltblown
April 27, 2017, 13:52
How do you know where you are hitting at 200 yds? I have a 60X spotter and can't make out a 308 hole much less a .22

hueyville
April 27, 2017, 13:53
Dunno bout rules for your games sir but just ordered some more of the Tubbs 5.56 Match loaded with 69 grain SMK's. Uses what they call a "proprietary" powder blend with the most accurate weight powder charging system in the business. Also claim to run the bullets though a pointing die as well and load in new Lake City brass. Does not shoot as well as my ammunition tailored to each individual rifle or loads that are tailored to specific twist rates and barrel lengths but in 1:7, 1:8 and 1:9 twist barrels from 14.7" to 20" is the most consistent shooting ammunition have found at 70 cents per bang. Figure match components and time its hard to beat buying his "off the shelf" ammo.

Recently released a 77 grain version and have 100 of those coning for testing though expect they will prefer 1:7 and 1:8 twist barrels of 16" and over. A good "do all" ammunition I can buy gets more attractive based on how busy work is. Can make more money working than can save if handloading meticulously. Pull handle and drop is one thing but if get after every possible step of brass prep, running bullets through pointing die and trickling up each powder drop to the kernel of powder then 70 cents can sound cheap.

hagar
April 27, 2017, 14:42
How do you know where you are hitting at 200 yds? I have a 60X spotter and can't make out a 308 hole much less a .22

Neither can I most of the time with my Konus 80mm.:eek:

W.E.G.
April 27, 2017, 14:49
How do you know where you are hitting at 200 yds? I have a 60X spotter and can't make out a 308 hole much less a .22

Shoot-N-See targets are a godsend for training where you need to clearly see each bullethole as the drill moves forward.

Shots in the white are easy to see, but if you are shooting many shots in the white, any concerns about being able to see the holes in your scope are pretty far down the list of what you need to be concerned about.

Seeing bulletholes in the black on NRA-type bullseye targets using just a spotting scope is very difficult at 200 yards without some form gimmick.

W.E.G.
April 27, 2017, 14:56
70 cents OTD for 69-grain match 5.56 is a fair price.

I'm not a believer in the latest gimmick of "pointing" the bullets for anything other than high-level benchrest competition.

Otherwise, its a complete red herring for service rifle.

The 69 grain bullet can be accurate, even at 600 yards, but ballistic coefficient truly is king, and the 69's play second-fiddle to the 77's and 80's at 600 yards, even though the 69's can definitely still shoot a tight group at 600 if the wind is willing to let you.

At 300 yards and less, the 69 will keep up with the heavier bullets, even in the wind.

hueyville
April 27, 2017, 19:08
Thanx, have to drive and beg to get a range longer than 600 and my range on farm is 400 yards maximum where do most of my testing. Honestly, not going to grab a poodle shooter at over 600 yards unless world has gone very wrong. Have too many other guns like the WOA AR 10 in 6XC for a repeater then turn bolts in 338 Lapua and 7mm Practical. Funny thing is never fired a round from my 50. It's only purpose is to be a big can opener if world turns to crap. Will snipe with a 338 and use 50 to bust holes in stuff can point shoot without scope or sights. Need to mount some form of sights or optic and set so can kill cars and such if world got that bad. Have a pair of 22-250 Ackley Improved turn bolts that use for coyote and ground hogs when range finder says past 400 yards. Am a daily handgun shooter, rifles to 100 yards once a week, long distance rifles (up to 400 yards) only get to practice once or twice a month. Past 600 only a few times per year. Varmints over 400 yards and have to cheat with annenometer, ballistics App, plus use big glass to make hits. But not uncommon for the odd coyote to get struck by lighting from a long way off when the electronics give me a good firing solution and I don't feather the trigger, have a tendency to be to soft on trigger which pushes shots to the left.

Below target shows my tendency is to feather the trigger and tickle instead of press.

http://i63.tinypic.com/nfoa3c.jpg

I like reticles like this Horus in high power Leupolds to use for doping based on reticle calculations or electronic gadgets to call the dope.

http://i63.tinypic.com/30hrdyd.jpg

Not afraid to admit I need all the help I can get at long range and wind. The new 22 Nosler has killed a ground hog at 427 yards in light wind according to my SIG Kilo 1 rangefinder with 1,600 yard range rating. Thus am gaining confidence in longer distance poodle shooters but using a cheater cartridge with lot of electronics to call the shot placement.

Hebrew Battle Rifle
April 29, 2017, 10:59
Shoot-N-See targets are a godsend for training where you need to clearly see each bullethole as the drill moves forward.



I have discovered that shooting medium blue bulls on white backing allows the shots to be seen clearly whether bulls or misses while maintaining the visible integrity of the bull.

That is all. Carry on.