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Bertellione
April 20, 2017, 13:20
I'm getting ready to do another repro and this is the first one that I will have a reciever engraved for. For the engraving to be the sharpest and clearest they say to use an unanodized reciever. My question is if just cerikote is good enough. My 601 build is just a painted reciever but it is more of a display and eventually maybe I'll do another reciever to have engraved but that nodak reciever was expensive so probably not. The build I'm working on at the moment will probably get shot much more than the 601 build that's why I'm asking. They say when you cerikote a reciever you want to blast it and end up removing the anodizing anyhow. I'm interested in other people's opinions but more interested in experiences.

Thanks guys

MistWolf
April 20, 2017, 13:55
Anodizing converts the surface of aluminum to aluminum oxide and will protect your aluminum part far better than ceracoating.

Note: The black you see on AR receivers is not anodizing. It is a dye that's applied as part of the Type III Class 2 anodizing process

Bertellione
April 20, 2017, 14:00
Anodizing converts the surface of aluminum to aluminum oxide and will protect your aluminum part far better than ceracoating.

Note: The black you see on AR receivers is not anodizing. It is a dye that's applied as part of the Type III Class 2 anodizing process

Do you know of anyone who will anodize an 80% reciever after its engraved before its cut out?

Roadmarker
April 20, 2017, 14:28
I always though that you anodized the aluminum and then painted. The reasoning that anodizing protects the aluminum and you cannot control the limited color of anodizing so then you cerakote to get the color you want.

badzero
April 20, 2017, 15:22
I've always cerakoted over the anodizing, wrong or not it will take some abuse. I'm pretty sure if you can machine an 80% you can manage a dyi anodizing job.

CG&L
April 20, 2017, 15:32
Any aluminum parts on a gun should be anodized for wear/scratch resistance.
It will make no difference whether the aluminum is anodized or not when it comes to engraving. This is a bizarre statement

Cerakote or KG Gun Kote should be applied over anodizing. It gives a better surface for the paint to adhere to.

MistWolf
April 20, 2017, 17:15
Do you know of anyone who will anodize an 80% reciever after its engraved before its cut out?

It does not matter if the lower is anodized before or after it's engraved. Ideally, it would be better to anodize after the engraving is done.

There's nothing wrong with applying paint after anodizing. What I was saying earlier is that cerakote without anodizing will not protect aluminum as well as anodizing

TerryN
April 20, 2017, 20:22
If the jig you'll be using is made of aluminum, anodize AFTER you do the milling/drilling/whatever. Your pretty anodizing job will get all scratched and scuffed up otherwise. AMHIK.

grumpy1
April 21, 2017, 09:16
Do you know of anyone who will anodize an 80% reciever after its engraved before its cut out?

The company I work for has parts anodized. One of the managers found a company that will anodize parts. They are in Tennessee or Kentucky but were promising a three day turn around versus the three week turn around we have with the local companies we are using now. We haven't used the faster company yet.

You should be able to find someone close to you too. Set up/prep fee is the killer, we are charged like $65 for set up/ prep fee. Then a there are s the cost per part fee too. Little parts are usually under $2 per piece, our bigger parts (close to an AR receiver) are about $30 per part.

lew
April 21, 2017, 11:39
Cerakote or KG Gun Kote should be applied over anodizing. It gives a better surface for the paint to adhere to.

^This is the correct answer.

Bertellione
April 22, 2017, 23:28
Any aluminum parts on a gun should be anodized for wear/scratch resistance.
It will make no difference whether the aluminum is anodized or not when it comes to engraving. This is a bizarre statement

Cerakote or KG Gun Kote should be applied over anodizing. It gives a better surface for the paint to adhere to.

I've been in contact with three companies to do the engraving and all three have said the engraving turns out best on unanodized. They have all stated anodized will chip away at the edges and not leave as clean of lines. I don't know if they are correct or not but I would assume so since they do it for a living.

Bertellione
April 22, 2017, 23:34
I ask about cerikote with out anodizing because it seems as though there are several companies that sell cerikoted 80% without mentioning anything about anodizing.

My next question is has anyone here tried doing their own anodizing? If so what kits have you tried? I have read up on it in the past and looked at kits so I'm curios what others here have used.

hueyville
April 23, 2017, 06:30
Never used a kit. That would be up to your needs as seems to be a variety. Many use suphuric acid the way I have done a few parts in past uses nitric acid which is more difficult for many to lay hands on. Most important part is being able to get adequate amperage for size of part. Many try with a small homeowners automotive battery charger. If you have a big charger already then your golden. If you have always wanted a big shop charger now is your excuse to buy one. Plating services around here will anodized a part much cheaper than buying an adequate DC charger but never asked them to do a gun part, might refuse. Kit or not, suggest nitric over sulphuric acid, RIT Dye and a burly DC input. A clean part is a happy part.

CG&L
April 23, 2017, 08:39
Bertellione

I just looked at some of my engraved, anodized, aluminum AR receivers and none of them show any signs of chipping at the edges. Looks like clean lines to me

I have used KG Gun Kote over non-anodized aluminum and the paint has held up quite well. It's a Form 1 suppressor tube and not getting any abuse other than firing. I did soak it in acetate overnight and blast it with AlOx before painting.

gunplumber
April 23, 2017, 09:13
Makes no sense to me. Anodizing is not a plating. It is a chemical conversion. There is no separation between the finish and the substrate that can chip away. It's like saying bluing is chipping and peeling.

CG&L
April 23, 2017, 09:47
Yeah, something's not right
The engraving shops might not be using the right cutters or worn out cutters

I just took a close look at mine under 10X magnification. With a good light, there may be some 'chipping' on some edges in some places.
It's really tough to see.
Maybe 15X or 20X in specialized equipment is required to see what's really going on

I'm short the $10,000 in lab equipment to verify this 'chipping' but maybe there's something to it

Bertellione
April 23, 2017, 16:18
Yeah, something's not right
The engraving shops might not be using the right cutters or worn out cutters

I just took a close look at mine under 10X magnification. With a good light, there may be some 'chipping' on some edges in some places.
It's really tough to see.
Maybe 15X or 20X in specialized equipment is required to see what's really going on

I'm short the $10,000 in lab equipment to verify this 'chipping' but maybe there's something to it

Ya that's just what the different companies told me two of them want over 300$ just to do the engraving and set up the art work and told me that clones are typically 90% correct. The guy I'm actually going to have do it is charging me much less and has worked very hard to get the engraving correct from the photos I supplied.

What companies have you used in the past and how satisfied were you with the end result if you don't mind me asking.

CG&L
April 23, 2017, 16:52
The guy I use is in Baton Rouge and charges $60 to engrave a Form 1 suppressor tube or an SBR. It's only a 30 minute drive and no waiting. He does this on the side so you call ahead, bring it in and it gets done.

His work looks perfect to me. More than good enough for practical needs. Art work may be an issue but I've never had that done

Bertellione
April 23, 2017, 18:00
The guy I use is in Baton Rouge and charges $60 to engrave a Form 1 suppressor tube or an SBR. It's only a 30 minute drive and no waiting. He does this on the side so you call ahead, bring it in and it gets done.

His work looks perfect to me. More than good enough for practical needs. Art work may be an issue but I've never had that done

Ya the engraving I'm having done is to clone a real T91 and some of the lines are very close together with the Taiwanese writing.

Capt D
April 24, 2017, 14:25
I'm coming in late here, but unless I missed something, you never Cerakote over anything but bare metal, prepared EXACTLY as prescribed by the manufacturer; that is, oxide blasted, soaked in a parts cleaner, the baked-out (rinse and repeat, in some cases), and this is all PRIOR to applying the activated 'paint'. Cerakote is a paint, only as far as how it's applied...beyond that, it's a MUCH different animal than any other paint, coating, treatment, etc. Those folks you hear complaining about their cerakote flaking off probably did just that--paint directly onto some other finish, to which the bond was not as it was designed.

The ceramic in the Cerakote chemically bonds to the bare metal, no primer needed. The activator combined with the 'paint' starts a process which I can only describe as 'chemical voodoo'. That process is completed when cured in the oven. I've asked my Cerakote guys if they'd just apply over the parkerizing on my FAL bits, but they explained the process to me, and the secret to success with Cerakote is in the preparation. While Cerakote won't take the same abuse as the Type IV anodizing on my Kahles scopes, it damn sure holds up better than just about anything else out there. Just thought I'd clear the air concerning some Cerakote misnomers out there. Peace :)

Bertellione
April 24, 2017, 23:49
I'm coming in late here, but unless I missed something, you never Cerakote over anything but bare metal, prepared EXACTLY as prescribed by the manufacturer; that is, oxide blasted, soaked in a parts cleaner, the baked-out (rinse and repeat, in some cases), and this is all PRIOR to applying the activated 'paint'. Cerakote is a paint, only as far as how it's applied...beyond that, it's a MUCH different animal than any other paint, coating, treatment, etc. Those folks you hear complaining about their cerakote flaking off probably did just that--paint directly onto some other finish, to which the bond was not as it was designed.

The ceramic in the Cerakote chemically bonds to the bare metal, no primer needed. The activator combined with the 'paint' starts a process which I can only describe as 'chemical voodoo'. That process is completed when cured in the oven. I've asked my Cerakote guys if they'd just apply over the parkerizing on my FAL bits, but they explained the process to me, and the secret to success with Cerakote is in the preparation. While Cerakote won't take the same abuse as the Type IV anodizing on my Kahles scopes, it damn sure holds up better than just about anything else out there. Just thought I'd clear the air concerning some Cerakote misnomers out there. Peace :)


That's exactly how I've always thought it was suppose to be and when oxide blasting the aluminum I've always read it removes the anodizing so there is no point in having it anodized.

CG&L
April 25, 2017, 07:49
Anodizing is a chemical bond.

I would like to know how Cerakote chemically bonds with aluminum. There's no reason, The molecules are too different..If it did chemically bond, there would be no blasting required

The only paint I know of that can chemically bond would be Krylon Fusion and it must be applied to plastic to chemically bond. Fusion cannot chemically bond to wood or metal, it must be plastic. I think it's the toulene in Fusion that allows the plastic to dissolve a little and bond with the paint.


Think what you want but KG Gun Kote, Cerakote, Duracoat and other paints adhere to a metal surface. None of them bond

Parkerizing is a bond. Painting over Park works as well as painting over anodizing

gunplumber
April 25, 2017, 09:00
That's exactly how I've always thought it was suppose to be and when oxide blasting the aluminum I've always read it removes the anodizing so there is no point in having it anodized.

It depends how you blast.

If I'm painting over anodizing, I use a reduced pressure and "dust" the surface. Depending on how it was done, anodizing can be rather slick and this dusting will give the paint better adherence. And no, it's not paint. It's actually categorized as a BSFL, or "Bonded, Solid-Film Lubricant". Why? Maybe be it forms a chemical bond? But it looks like paint and acts like paint, so I call it paint. Anyway, sometimes the anodizing goes whisking off like dust, even under low pressure. This is shitty anodizing and would not have made a good base. Most of the time, it just takes the sheen off. This would be a good anodizing, like a grade II or III hard acid process. Then I rinse in alcohol to remove any blast dust and then . . . . .Parkerize it.

Huh? Whatyoutalkinbout, Mark? You can't Parkerize aluminum. No, no you can't. At least you should not be able to. But you can soak the aluminum in a mild acid in a hot bath to clean it at the microscopic level - and what do you know - I have a hot mild acid bath running anyway. Actually, I have some additional thoughts on Parkerizing aluminum because I have witnessed results on some types of aluminum that should not be possible, but I can't explain it right now. Suffice to say, I park aluminum before paint. Can't hurt, might help.

If Captain D's assertions are correct, then Cerrakote is a completely useless finish for firearms and should be rejected categorically. As a spray finish, it is physically impossible to reach all aspects of a part, such as the inside of an AK receiver (under the rails) or inside a gas tube. Therefore, another immersion finish should be used first to provide some protection to those inaccessible areas. If Cerrakote can only be used on bare metal, then those areas remain unprotected. Logical conclusion - Cerrakote is inappropriate for firearms. Aluminum does corrode, but I'm far less concerned with bare aluminum on inaccessible parts of a receiver than I am with bare steel, which oxidizes much more readily.

I was one of the companies testing the original Cerrakote. While an attractive array of colors, and an adequate finish, the totality did not impress me to the point where I felt a need to jump on the bandwagon. And there was zero mention of bare metal when they were soliciting my endorsement.

Unlike that little bitch Lauer and his crap floor paint*, I have nothing negative to say** about the result of Cerrakote, other than I will continue, when I need colors other than my own satin black, to use Joe Fazzio's KG line (and pay extra for him to mix it at my preferred ration of a 30% solids).

I am not married to any particular finish - if I find a better one than I am using now, I'll switch in a heartbeat. As every new wonder-finish comes out, you can be sure I thoroughly test it. At this point, since my own finish is not available for home-application, I recommend KG industries.


*actually, it's very good floor plate. It's crap on moving parts.

**Well, that may be changing as there seems to be a recent pattern of defective materials and the company trying to pass the blame onto the users. C'mon - flaking does not suddenly jump up all around the country because people with previously trouble free applications suddenly started to do shit work - it's the product!

Bertellione
April 25, 2017, 17:00
I'm getting some good info and thoughts here. I was looking at home anodizing kits but the cost is 1000$ to get into one. I don't think I can come up with 1000$ worth of anodizing to do.

ftierson
April 25, 2017, 18:00
**Well, that may be changing as there seems to be a recent pattern of defective materials and the company trying to pass the blame onto the users. C'mon - flaking does not suddenly jump up all around the country because people with previously trouble free applications suddenly started to do shit work - it's the product!

We have not seen this yet and haven't heard of the problem from others (for whatever that's worth).

Do you know whether this has been a problem reported across the entire line or just related to one of the E, or C, or H, or HIR series?

Forrest

gunplumber
April 26, 2017, 05:08
Don't know, I assume it is the one that is supposed to be ceramic (but doesn't actually contain any ceramic?). Emphatically not suggesting the product is inherently defective as a protective coating.

I've been getting contacted over the last 6 months for redos from diverse customers claiming issues with CK. The only one I actually refinished did not have a failure, but was worried because of the reports he read. The work, adhesion, texture, finish, all looked very nice to me. And the customer has a history of needless fretting. So maybe it's one of those internet rumors. But I put the confluence of specific time and diverse geography to mean a bad batch of product - the primary issue from complainants being the lack of support from manufacturer.

Maybe it's all smoke started by that little bitch Lauer. He has a history of that.

jhend170
April 26, 2017, 09:40
I've been in contact with three companies to do the engraving and all three have said the engraving turns out best on unanodized. They have all stated anodized will chip away at the edges and not leave as clean of lines. I don't know if they are correct or not but I would assume so since they do it for a living.

So maybe I'm the oddball here (ok probably, but that's a discussion for another day), but the statement that the engraving won't be as smooth makes sense to me. If the surface is "hardened" in "hard-coat anodizing" it means there is a difference in hardness within the item that is anodized. Hardness differences can lead to uneven reaction to cutting, and it would make sense that this could cause problems in an area where you want perfection.

If it's still an 80% then it's NOT a gun. This means anyone can work on it and do not need any firearm licensing to do so.

Cerakote is hard stuff. Because it is strictly on the surface it cannot be as effective as a conversion of the metal, but the things I've had done have held up well, including friction areas (i.e. the charging handle channel on my FAL). I'd say the largest advantage to it is it goes on THIN. Not "watery" but rather "doesn't need to be built up thick" like regular paint. This means it can go into areas and not affect function.

I just got with my Cerakote guy and he said that bare metal isn't necessary, but a surface that has been roughed up with a fine blasting media is what he's getting the best results with. He attributes it to having something the material can bite and hold onto. With my FAL he went right over the fresh parkerizing as he thought it to be a great surface to coat over, seems to have worked nicely.

So it comes down to what will you be doing with the rifle? What is most important? If it will be your main squeeze at the range and you expect it to get LOTS of wear and tear finding a place to have it anodized AFTER all work is done would be best. Otherwise cerakote will last quite a long time, especially if this will only be shot occasionally, and never be run hard. Best part is if it gets messed up, or if you decide to change the look or whatever, you simply recoat it. Wash, rinse, repeat.

ftierson
April 26, 2017, 12:08
Don't know, I assume it is the one that is supposed to be ceramic (but doesn't actually contain any ceramic?). Emphatically not suggesting the product is inherently defective as a protective coating.

I've been getting contacted over the last 6 months for redos from diverse customers claiming issues with CK. The only one I actually refinished did not have a failure, but was worried because of the reports he read. The work, adhesion, texture, finish, all looked very nice to me. And the customer has a history of needless fretting. So maybe it's one of those internet rumors. But I put the confluence of specific time and diverse geography to mean a bad batch of product - the primary issue from complainants being the lack of support from manufacturer.

Maybe it's all smoke started by that little bitch Lauer. He has a history of that.

Thanks...

Forrest