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wheelgunner505
April 01, 2017, 21:04
Hello all,

I have a question about an M-14 variant that I have never seen. It appears to be an investment cast receiver with all USGI parts.

Does anyone know anything about Smith Mfg Inc. M-14's? What is their quality level? What are they worth? Is there a demand for them?

I have a few Norinco and Polytech Ak's listed for sale and I received an offer for this a pre-ban Smith Mfg Inc M-14 in trade for one of them. S/N# is low at 106X. Here are some photos of it that were sent to me:

Thanks for any help in advance!:bow:

http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww257/quaid_douglas/IMG_4186_zps70491cfa.jpg (http://s725.photobucket.com/user/quaid_douglas/media/IMG_4186_zps70491cfa.jpg.html)
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww257/quaid_douglas/IMG_4185_zpsfifib9x6.jpg (http://s725.photobucket.com/user/quaid_douglas/media/IMG_4185_zpsfifib9x6.jpg.html)
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww257/quaid_douglas/IMG_4295_zpszxutl8om.jpg (http://s725.photobucket.com/user/quaid_douglas/media/IMG_4295_zpszxutl8om.jpg.html)
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww257/quaid_douglas/IMG_4294_zps6yga9ghr.jpg (http://s725.photobucket.com/user/quaid_douglas/media/IMG_4294_zps6yga9ghr.jpg.html)
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww257/quaid_douglas/IMG_4293_zpsy2sglvk3.jpg (http://s725.photobucket.com/user/quaid_douglas/media/IMG_4293_zpsy2sglvk3.jpg.html)
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww257/quaid_douglas/IMG_4292_zpsagmge6ne.jpg (http://s725.photobucket.com/user/quaid_douglas/media/IMG_4292_zpsagmge6ne.jpg.html)

ArtBanks
April 02, 2017, 06:45
There was one on Gun Auction 5 years ago with an opening bid of 2100.
It closed with no bids at all.

tlock
April 02, 2017, 07:18
Here are a couple of threads from over on m14 forum, but I swear I read a thread recently that had more info about Smith mfg

http://m14forum.com/m14/109009-info-please-smith-m14.html
http://m14forum.com/m14/126876-smith-mfg-ltd.html

HD-Ghost
April 02, 2017, 07:30
Smith Mfg. was a limited run cast receiver by H&R Gun Co. Don't know the time frame. The receivers were strong like the early Springfield's and were built with all USGI parts.

ServiceRifle
April 02, 2017, 07:55
From the Lee Emerson book on the M14 rifle


H & R Gun Co. and Smith Ltd.
Mr. Maunz sold his M14 rifle business to Smith Manufacturing Co. (then P. O. Box 1070
Toledo, OH 43697) about 1984. The semi-automatic M14 receiver master die was
loaned to them as part of the sale. Smith Manufacturing Co. produced complete rifles
built on investment cast H&R Gun Co. stamped receivers. The H&R Gun Co. Semi-Auto
7.62MM-M14 receivers were marked TOLEDO, OHIO though Smith Manufacturing Co.
was physically located in Holland, OH about fourteen miles to the west. H&R Gun Co.
Semi-Auto 7.62MM-M14 rifles were assembled with Harrington & Richardson M14 parts
kits imported in 1985 by Jack Friese. All H&R Gun Co. models were originally sold as
complete rifles by Smith Manufacturing Co. Smith Manufacturing Co. was operated by
Carl Hinkelman, Ron Smith (TN), and Doug Smith (Bowling Green, OH), neither related to
Ron Smith of Smith Enterprise, Inc. in Arizona. As an aside, Carl Hinkelman lived in
Toledo, OH within blocks of the Schuster family at the time. Karl Maunz was a consultant
to Smith Manufacturing Co. on the H&R Gun Co. project.

Smith Manufacturing Co. machined the first Armscorp of America receivers around 1985
or 1986. Armscorp serial number 1120 is marked SMITH MFG. INC. TOLEDO, OHIO on
the left side of the receiver directly under the elevation knob and to the rear of the bolt
lock. A number of the early Armscorp receivers had rear lugs made as part of the casting.
The very first Armscorp of America M14 receiver was hand delivered to Mike Gruber by
Karl Maunz. Smith Manufacturing Co. marked a few Armscorp of America receiver heels
by electro-discharge machining (EDM) instead of using stamping dies as an experiment.
Smith Manufacturing Co. also produced Smith Ltd. investment cast semi-automatic M14
type receivers. Smith Ltd. receivers were made about 1987. Like Maunz Mfg., a very few
Smith Ltd. rifles were experimental models. An example is Smith Ltd. M-14 serial number
EX-5 which has a front lug and no rear lug. These rifles have a serial number preceded
by EX-.

Smith Ltd. receivers were assembled as complete rifles and sold about 1987 and 1988 at
Camp Perry shooting matches by Smith Manufacturing Co. Ron Smith, one of the
principals of Smith Manufacturing Co., assembled the Smith Ltd. rifles at the family gun
shop, Georgia Gun Trader, Inc. (then 605 West Nashville Street Ringgold, GA 30736).
Ron Smith was a competitive shooter at Camp Perry in the 1980s. He learned how to
build M14 type rifles through a couple of retired miltary armorers who lived in northern
Georgia as well as from armorers and competitors he met at Camp Perry. The parts fit, if
using USGI and/or National Match parts, is excellent, based on examination of Smith Ltd.
rifles serial numbered 0210, 0225, 0236 and 0237. A commercial manufacture bolt and
commercial manufacture operating rod were found to be too thick to slide smoothly inside
Smith Ltd. receiver serial number 0237.
The following report was given by M14 gunsmith Tim Strait on March 14, 2006 on Smith
Ltd. receiver serial number 0003 [minor spelling and punctuation errors corrected]:


Smith Ltd M14 # 0003
Receiver specifications as follows:
1. Excellent cast receiver with virtually no machine marks visible. Excellent parkerized
[phosphate coated’ metal finish on the entire rifle. Surface hardening was checked at the
rear sight base with results of 59 HRC according to a local metallurgist.
2. All parts on this rifle are TRW (barrel, operating rod, firing mechanism and bolt). All
parts seem to fit well without any fitting at all. Barrel gauges at 0 for throat erosion and 0
for muzzle wear.
3. Receiver threads (barrel) are correct per M14 military specification (barrel timing or
indexing).
4. The machine work done on the inside of the receiver is excellent and smooth. No burrs
were found on this receiver.
5. The locking lug helix of this Smith Ltd receiver matches the helix of the USGI M14 bolt
very well at approximately 99.9 %.
6. Firing pin retraction was well within standard for USGI military specification.
7. Headspace on this rifle was set at a modest 1.6325 ". This is good enough for
commercial .308 Winchester or 7.62 NATO ammunition. The bolt lugs have about 99 %
contact with the receiver locking lug engagement area.
8. The receiver heel is just a bit thicker than other commercial receivers being made
today.
9. The front pin hole for the bolt stop roll pin is cut exactly the same as USGI M14 rifles.
10. The operating rod dismount notch is 1 times the width of current commercial
receivers.
11. The receiver safety bridge was milled correctly and there’s no bolt shuck or
interference with bolt rotation. The action functions smoothly and without a hitch.

During the 1980s, there were four businesses or individuals with the name of Smith
involved with commercial M14 rifles as manufacturers. Neal Smith of Smith Firearms
(Mentor, OH) performed NFA registered select fire conversions of already-manufactured
Springfield Armory, Inc. M1A rifles. Richard Smith and Ron Smith of Smith Enterprise,
Inc. (then Mesa, AZ) produced semi-automatic and select fire M14 rifles stamped SMITH
ENT. Melvin Smith of Valley Ordnance (Wilkes-Barre, PA) machined raw castings into
M1A receivers for Springfield Armory, Inc. in Geneseo, IL. Smith Manufacturing Co.
(Holland, OH) produced Maunz Match Rifle, H&R Gun Co. and Smith Ltd. semi-automatic
M14 rifles and the first Armscorp of America M14 type receivers. Ron Smith of
Tennessee was one of three stakeholders in Smith Manufacturing Co. He is of no
relation to Ron Smith of Smith Enterprise, Inc. None of these entities ever did any work
for the others. Although Armscorp of America, Inc. sold Smith Enterprise, Inc. M-14
receivers and Smith Manufacturing Co. made some Armscorp of America M14 receivers,
there was never any connection or relationship between Smith Manufacturing Co.
(Holland, OH) and Smith Enterprise, Inc. (then Mesa, AZ). Additionally, Frank Smith was
the All National Guard MTU armorer in the 1980s and early 1990s. The similarity in
names is purely coincidental.

wheelgunner505
April 02, 2017, 08:31
Thanks for all the information. Does anyone know how many were produced by Smith Mfg Inc? I understand the company changed names to Smith Ltd later on.

Were the Smith Mfg Inc guns made on Armscorp receivers? :bow:

ServiceRifle
April 02, 2017, 09:49
Read #5 above

wheelgunner505
April 02, 2017, 10:02
What is everyone"s take on the trade? The rifle in question on my end is an unfired Norinco 84S-1 under folder in 5.56. No box or accessories.

It would be a straight trade.


Here are some photos of the receiver that were sent:

http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww257/quaid_douglas/51283347050__FEC17280-EC5A-448A-BB4F-C62AFA01CC21_zpsxth5flz8.jpg (http://s725.photobucket.com/user/quaid_douglas/media/51283347050__FEC17280-EC5A-448A-BB4F-C62AFA01CC21_zpsxth5flz8.jpg.html)

http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww257/quaid_douglas/51283345979__E9E4AD47-5102-4F1B-9D7F-5F7CAD95C4F2_zpsliwk4mzp.jpg (http://s725.photobucket.com/user/quaid_douglas/media/51283345979__E9E4AD47-5102-4F1B-9D7F-5F7CAD95C4F2_zpsliwk4mzp.jpg.html)

http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww257/quaid_douglas/51283344199__FDF39135-B13B-44E8-8E23-B6666CFFA380_zpsrw2aqvsf.jpg (http://s725.photobucket.com/user/quaid_douglas/media/51283344199__FDF39135-B13B-44E8-8E23-B6666CFFA380_zpsrw2aqvsf.jpg.html)

http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww257/quaid_douglas/51283343143__D56D6633-0B86-4072-9CA0-D1440B63C0E8_zpsicx5xvwt.jpg (http://s725.photobucket.com/user/quaid_douglas/media/51283343143__D56D6633-0B86-4072-9CA0-D1440B63C0E8_zpsicx5xvwt.jpg.html)

SAFN49
April 02, 2017, 10:17
Is that a crack?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e43/djm540i/51283345979__E9E4AD47-5102-4F1B-9D7F-5F7CAD95C4F2_zpsw7kmx70h.jpg (http://s36.photobucket.com/user/djm540i/media/51283345979__E9E4AD47-5102-4F1B-9D7F-5F7CAD95C4F2_zpsw7kmx70h.jpg.html)

garandguy10
April 02, 2017, 10:32
Is that a crack?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e43/djm540i/51283345979__E9E4AD47-5102-4F1B-9D7F-5F7CAD95C4F2_zpsw7kmx70h.jpg (http://s36.photobucket.com/user/djm540i/media/51283345979__E9E4AD47-5102-4F1B-9D7F-5F7CAD95C4F2_zpsw7kmx70h.jpg.html)


That appears to be a casting seem, I would want that rifle if for no other reason than it is rare. Modern forged M14 receivers are no doubt much better, but I bet that Smith M14 works just fine.

wheelgunner505
April 02, 2017, 10:33
Is that a crack?

Good catch, I'll ask him.

*Update*

Not a crack, it is a casting seam. Was sent an up close video of the inside of the receiver. Clearly not a crack.

ServiceRifle
April 02, 2017, 13:51
I would trade the AK for the Smith in a heartbeat - in part because I'm not particularly fond of AKs

If as you indicate you have several AKs why hesitate

hardheaded
April 02, 2017, 22:32
If they are indeed USGI parts and not China the parts set alone should be worth 900-1100 with a GI profile Barrel

The number of genuine USGI parts ,the ability to pass a tilt test , Muzzle and throat erosion and headspace should be factored in

In the photos the weapon appears to be low round count by looking at the Parkerizing , however lustfully gazing at photographs while drooling on the web is not sound evaluation practice

I would trade a AK (even a really nice one) in a minute but I am a M14aholic with no hope of treatment or redemption comparable to some of the FAL heavy hitters in this forum

The M14 receiver is very difficult to replicate and dimensional inconsistencies runs rampant in a lot of the manufacturers , it is also a hard cookie to tune to MOA accuracy but once you get it right it will make you smile

I personally have no first hand knowledge of this particular manufacturer so take my ramblings with a grain of salt YPMMV