PDA

View Full Version : HK SEF mod jig?


madmax_fal
February 22, 2017, 08:55
https://www.gunsamerica.com/958316276/Heckler-and-Kock-SEF-modification-jig.htm

What do you think? Anyone tried one?

djfin
February 22, 2017, 11:46
As using this item without the required type three SOT license is a big problem that will land you in prison for a very long time why do you ask?? Do you have the correct license? If you don't have the license don't waste your money. If you do have it you should be able to do the mod without this jig.

madmax_fal
February 22, 2017, 12:19
As using this item without the required type three SOT license is a big problem that will land you in prison for a very long time why do you ask?? Do you have the correct license? If you don't have the license don't waste your money. If you do have it you should be able to do the mod without this jig.

Goodness me, I just asked if anyone has tried one of these. Thanks for the advice though.

hkshooter
February 22, 2017, 14:40
Goodness me, I just asked if anyone has tried one of these. Thanks for the advice though.

Don't worry about it, people often cannot answer a simple question without adding a sermon, whether it's asked for or not.

djfin
February 22, 2017, 15:09
Actual the simple answer is using this jig without the proper license is a Federal offence. Anyone asking about using this jig to commit a Federal offence is in need of a sermon whether it is asked for or not.

NFADLR
February 22, 2017, 15:38
Constructive Possession of Title II Firearms.

https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2008/06/constructive-possession-of-cla.html



As using this item without the required type three SOT license is a big problem that will land you in prison for a very long time why do you ask?? Do you have the correct license? If you don't have the license don't waste your money. If you do have it you should be able to do the mod without this jig.

madmax_fal
February 22, 2017, 15:55
Actual the simple answer is using this jig without the proper license is a Federal offence. Anyone asking about using this jig to commit a Federal offence is in need of a sermon whether it is asked for or not.

I would never make these modifications without the correct license. But I have been thinking about acquiring the correct license.

Ok, assume I already have the licenses needed.

hkshooter
February 22, 2017, 16:03
I would never make these modifications without the correct license. But I have been thinking about acquiring the correct license.

Ok, assume I already have the licenses needed.

That's really none of his business but one doesn't have to look very close to find his nose stuck in it.

djfin
February 22, 2017, 18:08
"I would never make these modifications without the correct license. But I have been thinking about acquiring the correct license.

Ok, assume I already have the licenses needed.[/QUOTE]"



Ok so you are going into the firearm manufacturing business and you can't figure out if this jib is ok. Right I believe that.

djfin
February 22, 2017, 18:11
]That's really none of his business but one doesn't have to look very close to find his nose stuck in it.

Well as he asked the QUESTION in an open forum it was my business to respond. One could claim that my response was none of your business.

hkshooter
February 22, 2017, 19:16
]That's really none of his business but one doesn't have to look very close to find his nose stuck in it.

Well as he asked the QUESTION in an open forum it was my business to respond. One could claim that my response was none of your business.

The question he asked was if anyone had used the mentioned item in the link and had zero to do with the validity, legality, or any potential panty binding due to the use of such item. You pipe up with your condescending asshole attitude preaching a sermon about the ability, or not, of one using such an item and questioned his ability to legally use such a tool.
In fact, you never did answer his actual question but rather wasted bandwidth with your preaching and holy attitude about which you knew nothing about, ie, answering his question with an experienced or educated yes or no.

The OP's credentials have zero to do with answering his question but you seem to be fascinated with the topic. Had I asked the question and been answered with your BS non-answer I'd have told you my business is mine and if you don't have an answer to the actual question to piss off and stay out of my thread.

But somehow I know you'll be back, as much as a true liberal can be, to attempt to further your BS position of "I'm right and you are wrong and you can't do that because..." yadayadayada.

I'm waiting.

madmax_fal
February 22, 2017, 19:50
Ok so you are going into the firearm manufacturing business and you can't figure out if this jib is ok. Right I believe that.

You don't need to be "going into the business" to get the licenses needed to make a full auto by yourself. If I got the licenses (which, the more I read, is probably not going to happen soon because of the expense) I could use it on a FA G3 build just for myself. And that does not take the skills needed to go into the firearms manufacturing business.

But thanks for your advice. I learned absolutely nothing from your (dfin) rants, but if I were an idiot I would find them useful. You can stop preaching now. I assure you that I have no illegal intent. Also, if you (djfin) don't stop this mindless blathering, I`ll delete this thread because this ain't the kind of trash we need here.

And thanks to hkshooter for calling this guy out this gross abuse of bandwidth, aka trolling.

machinegunner
February 22, 2017, 20:38
You don't need to be "going into the business" to get the licenses needed to make a full auto by yourself. If I got the licenses (which, the more I read, is probably not going to happen soon because of the expense) I could use it on a FA G3 build just for myself. And that does not take the skills needed to go into the firearms manufacturing business.

But thanks for your advice. I learned absolutely nothing from your (dfin) rants, but if I were an idiot I would find them useful. You can stop preaching now. I assure you that I have no illegal intent. Also, if you (djfin) don't stop this mindless blathering, I`ll delete this thread because this ain't the kind of trash we need here.

And thanks to hkshooter for calling this guy out this gross abuse of bandwidth, aka trolling.

Only legal for you to posses said rifle when you actually had the license. if you for some reason got rid or didn't renew it bang illegal MG. Just clarifying not being a butt crack like djfin.

madmax_fal
February 22, 2017, 21:08
Only legal for you to posses said rifle when you actually had the license. if you for some reason got rid or didn't renew it bang illegal MG. Just clarifying not being a butt crack like djfin.

Thank you! Finally some sane advice from someone who cares. But of course I already knew that I needed the license, it's just a matter of cost right now. But the way I understand things now, you just need to fill out a "Form 4" assuming the gun is legal in your state, correct?

FriendBesto
February 22, 2017, 21:14
I look at that ad like the full auto sear ad that plagued Shotgun News for so many years- like a sting operation.
But to answer your question, the jig looks like it would mimic the DLO registered trigger pack mods. Do a Google image search and you'll see what I mean.

NFADLR
February 22, 2017, 22:12
No you are incorrect a federal form 4 is not used to make a MG.

A form 4 is used to transfer an existing registered MG or other title II firearm.

You cannot make a new MG regardless of what tax stamp (SOT CLASS Tax paid status) you have with one exemption which I may go into later.

Look up McClure Volkmer FOPA.

And or federal Law passed May 19 1986.

A form 1 is used to mfg new title II "NFA WEAPONS".

A form 4 is only used to transfer to a currently registered title II firearm.


Questions ? Just ask.

Thank you! Finally some sane advice from someone who cares. But of course I already knew that I needed the license, it's just a matter of cost right now. But the way I understand things now, you just need to fill out a "Form 4" assuming the gun is legal in your state, correct?

djfin
February 23, 2017, 11:33
]You don't need to be "going into the business" to get the licenses needed to make a full auto by yourself.
Point of fact yes you do need to be in the business to get a license as the AFT plainly states in the application for the license.

If I got the licenses (which, the more I read, is probably not going to happen soon because of the expense) I could use it on a FA G3 build just for myself. And that does not take the skills needed to go into the firearms manufacturing business.

See above

But thanks for your advice. I learned absolutely nothing from your (dfin) rants, but if I were an idiot I would find them useful.

The fact that you don't learn from your mistakes is plain to see.
You can stop preaching now. I assure you that I have no illegal intent. Also, if you (djfin) don't stop this mindless blathering, I`ll delete this thread because this ain't the kind of trash we need here.

djfin
February 23, 2017, 11:38
Only legal for you to posses said rifle when you actually had the license. if you for some reason got rid or didn't renew it bang illegal MG. Just clarifying not being a butt crack like djfin.

Clarify all the facts like the one where it would not be legal for him to make it "to enhance his personal collect" like he stated. And shove you butt crack comment up you ass

machinegunner
February 23, 2017, 11:57
Clarify all the facts like the one where it would not be legal for him to make it "to enhance his personal collect" like he stated. And shove you butt crack comment up you ass

I never said it was legal for it to be part of his "personal collection" I just said it would be illegal for him to posses it after the license was gone. I should have clarified. The only Legal way to make/transfer FAs is to sell them to law enforcement. So while You can "make" FAs you can not "own" them.

As for your "And shove you butt crack comment up you ass" You were/are being a "butt crack" obviously madmax doesn't know, so why not calmly explain that what he wants to do is illegal instead of jumping on his case and tearing him to pieces.

His original question did not say he was going to use that piece of crap he was asking how it worked from anybody with personal experience. I am also curious as to how it works. I posses the knowledge to convert a g3 to FA(I know how not I would, I would never ,under these laws, do it) but I do not understand how this thing works.

djfin
February 23, 2017, 12:03
The question he asked was if anyone had used the mentioned item in the link and had zero to do with the validity, legality, or any potential panty binding due to the use of such item. You pipe up with your condescending asshole attitude preaching a sermon about the ability, or not, of one using such an item and questioned his ability to legally use such a tool.
In fact, you never did answer his actual question but rather wasted bandwidth with your preaching and holy attitude about which you knew nothing about, ie, answering his question with an experienced or educated yes or no.

The OP's credentials have zero to do with answering his question but you seem to be fascinated with the topic. Had I asked the question and been answered with your BS non-answer I'd have told you my business is mine and if you don't have an answer to the actual question to piss off and stay out of my thread.

But somehow I know you'll be back, as much as a true liberal can be, to attempt to further your BS position of "I'm right and you are wrong and you can't do that because..." yadayadayada.

I'm waiting.

Wait no more jackass . your first stupid statement.
"The question he asked was if anyone had used the mentioned item in the link and had zero to do with the validity, legality, or any potential panty binding due to the use of such item".
Asking if anyone has used this jig to illegally mod a full auto trigger box to fit on a semi auto receiver does have a lot to do with the legality of the item. If you are not smart enough to understand this that's your problem.
Second stupid comment
"You pipe up with your condescending asshole attitude preaching a sermon about the ability, or not, of one using such an item and questioned his ability to legally use such a tool"
Where to start with this BS . First if he does "HAVE THE ABILITY TO USE" this jig then he would see that it is totally unnecessary to have this jig to do the mod if you are willing to ignore the law. Based on your posts it looks like you do not understand this either. Next if you don't like my attitude to bad I don't care as I am sure you don't care that I think that you are a self important jackass.

Next stupid comment
"In fact, you never did answer his actual question but rather wasted bandwidth with your preaching and holy attitude about which you knew nothing about, ie, answering his question with an experienced or educated yes or no."
I am glad to see that you are worried about bandwidth use. Next jackass I do have the education and experience to answer his question. The fact that you don't like my answer means less than nothing to me. Anyone posting that they have used this or any other jig or device to illegally modify a firearm part to produce an illegal machinegun would be crazy. And again as I stated above this jig is a total waste of money as it is not necessary to do this mod if you are willing to commit a federal offence.

Lastly you can shove your " true liberal " BS. The fact that I will not be insulted by a self important jackass like you does not make me a liberal. The fact is that my post is correct and that you don't understand this is your problem not mine

madmax_fal
February 23, 2017, 12:09
It looks like some feelings are hurt here. But we're in this together. Sometimes one of us might step out of line, and its fine to correct them professionally. I must confess that I have been a bit lacking in this regard lately, as have a few others in this thread.

I`m not out to do anything illegal. This thread has showed me that I still have alot to learn about legally owning MGs, and I have many hours of research in front of me. But thank you to all of you for your input. HKshooter and NFADLR were particularly helpful, but I've taken all of your advice into consideration. If anything, I've learned that MGs are probably not for me right now.

No hard feeling toward anyone, and again, thanks for your advice.

machinegunner
February 23, 2017, 12:17
Wait no more jackass . your first stupid statement.
"The question he asked was if anyone had used the mentioned item in the link and had zero to do with the validity, legality, or any potential panty binding due to the use of such item".

how is this stupid?

Asking if anyone has used this jig to illegally mod a full auto trigger box to fit on a semi auto receiver does have a lot to do with the legality of the item. If you are not smart enough to understand this that's your problem.

Maybe he saw it and was like???? that doesn't look like it would work, is this fake would it work?
Second stupid comment
"You pipe up with your condescending asshole attitude preaching a sermon about the ability, or not, of one using such an item and questioned his ability to legally use such a tool"

not stupid

Where to start with this BS . First if he does "HAVE THE ABILITY TO USE" this jig then he would see that it is totally unnecessary to have this jig to do the mod if you are willing to ignore the law. Based on your posts it looks like you do not understand this either. Next if you don't like my attitude to bad I don't care as I am sure you don't care that I think that you are a self important jackass.
Another lie I understand that the jig is unnecessary and stated that it was. and I don't care what you think/say about me. Your aditude is making you look stupid and shows that you do not really care if madmax understand. You are just looking for somebody less knowledgeable than yourself to pick on.

Next stupid comment
"In fact, you never did answer his actual question but rather wasted bandwidth with your preaching and holy attitude about which you knew nothing about, ie, answering his question with an experienced or educated yes or no."
I am glad to see that you are worried about bandwidth use. Next jackass I do have the education and experience to answer his question. The fact that you don't like my answer means less than nothing to me. Anyone posting that they have used this or any other jig or device to illegally modify a firearm part to produce an illegal machinegun would be crazy. And again as I stated above this jig is a total waste of money as it is not necessary to do this mod if you are willing to commit a federal offence.

Your answer was not an answer. If you don't have an answer then don't post.

Lastly you can shove your " true liberal " BS. The fact that I will not be insulted by a self important jackass like you does not make me a liberal. The fact is that my post is correct and that you don't understand this is your problem not mine
First nothing I said was insulting while everything you said was said in an attempt to insult(a failed attempt). I never said your post was incorrect but it does not directly apply to his question. now quite your liberal tactics of insulting and distracting away from the true bs of your comments.

NFADLR
February 23, 2017, 12:24
My best and at the same time least costly advise to you is to buy a transferable MG of what ever kind you desire.

Check this guide to know and keep up to date on what they cost.

Back in the day 1992 or so I bought a NIB Maremont M60 with tons of extra stuff like ammo belts barrels etc, for 2500.00 and sold it 6 months or so later for in the area of 10K.

These things are an investment without a doubt but as you can see from a visit to the link below they rise exponentially as time goes by.

The reason you ask ?

The may 19 1986 law that was passed is the reason.
http://machinegunpriceguide.com/

djfin
February 23, 2017, 12:31
I never said it was legal for it to be part of his "personal collection" I just said it would be illegal for him to posses it after the license was gone. I should have clarified. The only Legal way to make/transfer FAs is to sell them to law enforcement. So while You can "make" FAs you can not "own" them.

As for your "And shove you butt crack comment up you ass" You were/are being a "butt crack" obviously madmax doesn't know, so why not calmly explain that what he wants to do is illegal instead of jumping on his case and tearing him to pieces.

His original question did not say he was going to use that piece of crap he was asking how it worked from anybody with personal experience. I am also curious as to how it works. I posses the knowledge to convert a g3 to FA(I know how not I would, I would never ,under these laws, do it) but I do not understand how this thing works.


The legalities of making post samples is a little more complicated than that but you are correct in the disposal answer. His post does state that he could make one for his personal use and that is incorrect.

His original post asked if anyone had any experience with the jig. As any experience with this jig would be making an illegal mod and be considered making a machine gun according to current AFT "logic" my answer is correct. Posting that you are looking for information on how to convert a semi to full auto is being a butt crack to use your term. Don't think that this is illegal ? Just ask the guys who were selling Oil filter and gas filter kits how much their bail is.

If you do in fact know how to convert the semi auto G3 to full auto you should be able to see that all that this "jig" does is define the shelf gap cut out that you can copy from a semi auto trigger box or a semi auto trigger housing. A smart man can figure out the rest.

machinegunner
February 23, 2017, 12:33
My best and at the same time least costly advise to you is to buy a transferable MG of what ever kind you desire.

Check this guide to know and keep up to date on what they cost.

Back in the day 1992 or so I bought a NIB Maremont M60 with tons of extra stuff like ammo belts barrels etc, for 2500.00 and sold it 6 months or so later for in the area of 10K.

These things are an investment without a doubt but as you can see from a visit to the link below they rise exponentially as time goes by.

The reason you ask ?

The may 19 1986 law that was passed is the reason.
http://machinegunpriceguide.com/

That same gun is now 60-80 grand. :facepalm::facepalm:

machinegunner
February 23, 2017, 12:36
The legalities of making post samples is a little more complicated than that but you are correct in the disposal answer. His post does state that he could make one for his personal use and that is incorrect.

His original post asked if anyone had any experience with the jig. As any experience with this jig would be making an illegal mod and be considered making a machine gun according to current AFT "logic" my answer is correct. Posting that you are looking for information on how to convert a semi to full auto is being a butt crack to use your term. Don't think that this is illegal ? Just ask the guys who were selling Oil filter and gas filter kits how much their bail is.

If you do in fact know how to convert the semi auto G3 to full auto you should be able to see that all that this "jig" does is define the shelf gap cut out that you can copy from a semi auto trigger box or a semi auto trigger housing. A smart man can figure out the rest.

What I was wondering was how do you get the trigger pack to go back into the lower(already a tight fit) when it is 1/8 an inch wider than it was?

embatp
February 23, 2017, 12:56
This thread makes me glad I don't own an hk....

djfin
February 23, 2017, 14:08
What I was wondering was how do you get the trigger pack to go back into the lower(already a tight fit) when it is 1/8 an inch wider than it was?

Making the two cuts that this jig defines does not change the size of the box in any way

djfin
February 23, 2017, 14:16
how is this stupid?



Maybe he saw it and was like???? that doesn't look like it would work, is this fake would it work?


not stupid Yes it was actually.


Another lie I understand that the jig is unnecessary and stated that it was. and I don't care what you think/say about me. Your aditude is making you look stupid and shows that you do not really care if madmax understand. You are just looking for somebody less knowledgeable than yourself to pick on.

What Lie ? My attitude?? My answer is fact and does not make me look stupid at all. Again because you don't like it does not make it wrong.
and posting facts is not picking on someone
Your answer was not an answer. If you don't have an answer then don't post.
Yes it is. Just because you don't like it does not change that fact

First nothing I said was insulting while everything you said was said in an attempt to insult(a failed attempt). I never said your post was incorrect but it does not directly apply to his question. now quit your liberal tactics of insulting and distracting away from the true bs of your comments.

As none of my posts made any attempt to insult you in any way. as all of this quotes are in response to HKshooters post why would you think I was insulting you? I was however responding to his insults directed at me. More of the liberal BS comments. As all of the posts I made are correct that is very funny. Again because you don't like it does not make it wrong. Talk about liberal nonsense.

machinegunner
February 23, 2017, 14:28
As none of my posts made any attempt to insult you in any way. as all of this quotes are in response to HKshooters post why would you think I was insulting you? I was however responding to his insults directed at me. More of the liberal BS comments. As all of the posts I made are correct that is very funny. Again because you don't like it does not make it wrong. Talk about liberal nonsense.

The lie was that what he said was bs. and it is your attitude that is making you look stupid. I never said you were attempting to insult me. Your original post was an attempt to insult. while it is true your info is correct and it could be the answer to a question. It is not the answer to the question asked so shut your mouth. It's not that I don't like what you posted. it is the way you posted it that is the problem. Maybe you have had a bad week and are taking it out here.

djfin
February 23, 2017, 18:44
The lie was that what he said was bs. and it is your attitude that is making you look stupid. I never said you were attempting to insult me. Your original post was an attempt to insult. while it is true your info is correct and it could be the answer to a question. It is not the answer to the question asked so shut your mouth. It's not that I don't like what you posted. it is the way you posted it that is the problem. Maybe you have had a bad week and are taking it out here.

My attitude is just fine. You claim that my original post was an attempt to insult is stupid at best. Please explain why you feel that these words are insulting.

As using this item without the required type three SOT license is a big problem that will land you in prison for a very long time why do you ask?? A very reasonable response to someone asking about illegal conversions .
Do you have the correct license? Again a reasonable question given the subject matter FYI if he did in fact have the correct license I would have been happy to explain exactly why the jig is not required and supplied the required information to do the work.If you don't have the license don't waste your money. A factual statement
If you do have it you should be able to do the mod without this jig. Another factual statement
Please explain why you feel that any of the above is an insult.

And to be clear telling me to shut up because you are butt hurt is really stupid.
The fact that you don't like my post is not my concern. And I had a very good week. One last thought. You did post that you and I quote "I posses the knowledge to convert a g3 to FA" and then you post asking about how to get the trigger box to fit after using the jig to make two cuts that would not have any affect on the length, height or width of the box. As you have the knowledge to do the job why are you confused.

21HK
February 23, 2017, 19:22
This thread makes me glad I don't own an hk....

This thread makes me glad it's not my thread. :biggrin:

gunplumber
February 23, 2017, 19:28
Don't worry about it, people often cannot answer a simple question without adding a sermon, whether it's asked for or not.

And whether it is accurate or not. Djfin is of course, 100% wrong. As is NFADLR (tin foil and all!). But obviously they too ignorant of the topic for my explanation of why they are wrong, to be much use. But I'll try anyway.

"JIG IS FOR CONVERTING A SELECT FIRE TRIGGER MECHANISM HOUSING TO A SEMI!" (Hopefully my shouting helped). With an overtravel stop, it will fire semi in both positions.

Nor is possession of select fire trigger mechanism housing and grip frame an issue, as it is not a machinegun, nor a conversion part. "Constructive Possession" is bandied about as if it means something. It is very nuanced. A crowbar is a tool. A crowbar in your pocket, in someone's back yard at 2 AM could be burglary tools. It's all in context. In this context, a machinegun part that cannot be installed in a semiauto is not a machinegun by itself, nor a conversion part. That's why the FAL auto sear is not a machinegun. It will not fit on a semi. I gave an 8 hour class on machinegun conversions a few years back a the National Toolmark and Firearms Examiner convention.

As a matter of fact, a friend of mine was arrested by CA DOJ for "machinegun possession" because he was selling MP5 select fire grip & trigger assemblies. ATF said "not a machinegun, not a conversion part". It still cost him $10k in attorney fees to get his shit back, but that's CA for you.


As to answering the question, I think it's a waste of time and money. The location for the cut is so easy that a jig is unnecessary. I just stick in the mill (with hammer & trigger pin installed to prevent crushing) and cut a rectangle with one point being the edge of the auto sear hole. This is a clearance cut only, and not critical. The cuts on the grip frame are easier done with a jig. I like to weld a plate onto the cutout to give more side to side support, as done on the factory-converted units.

Converted grip frames in the my paint booth.

Scroll down in my tutorial here for the section on the grip frame.

https://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/notes-hk-tut-sw3/notes-hk-tut-sw3.html

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/hk/ars-shop-hk-gripframes-01.jpg

madmax_fal
February 23, 2017, 19:51
Thanks gunplumber! Very helpful as usual. :bow:

hkshooter
February 23, 2017, 19:52
Let's see, assbag talked himself into a hole. Check.

Assbag resorted to childish name calling and general butthurt for being called on his bullshit attitude. Check.

Respectable members confirming my assertion of assbag's shitty attitude. Check.

Assbag bitch slapped. Check.

Finally, response to childish name calling by assbag with better name calling. Check.

Looks like my work is done here. :rofl:

hkshooter
February 23, 2017, 19:54
And whether it is accurate or not. Djfin is of course, 100% wrong. As is NFADLR (tin foil and all!). But obviously they too ignorant of the topic for my explanation of why they are wrong, to be much use. But I'll try anyway.

"JIG IS FOR CONVERTING A SELECT FIRE TRIGGER MECHANISM HOUSING TO A SEMI!" (Hopefully my shouting helped). With an overtravel stop, it will fire semi in both positions.

Nor is possession of select fire trigger mechanism housing and grip frame an issue, as it is not a machinegun, nor a conversion part. "Constructive Possession" is bandied about as if it means something. It is very nuanced. A crowbar is a tool. A crowbar in your pocket, in someone's back yard at 2 AM could be burglary tools. It's all in context. In this context, a machinegun part that cannot be installed in a semiauto is not a machinegun by itself, nor a conversion part. That's why the FAL auto sear is not a machinegun. It will not fit on a semi. I gave an 8 hour class on machinegun conversions a few years back a the National Toolmark and Firearms Examiner convention.

As a matter of fact, a friend of mine was arrested by CA DOJ for "machinegun possession" because he was selling MP5 select fire grip & trigger assemblies. ATF said "not a machinegun, not a conversion part". It still cost him $10k in attorney fees to get his shit back, but that's CA for you.


As to answering the question, I think it's a waste of time and money. The location for the cut is so easy that a jig is unnecessary. I just stick in the mill (with hammer & trigger pin installed to prevent crushing) and cut a rectangle with one point being the edge of the auto sear hole. This is a clearance cut only, and not critical. The cuts on the grip frame are easier done with a jig. I like to weld a plate onto the cutout to give more side to side support, as done on the factory-converted units.

Converted grip frames in the my paint booth.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/hk/ars-shop-hk-gripframes-01.jpg

Damn, Mark, if I lived closer I'd approach you about a job. :bow:

djfin
February 24, 2017, 11:56
This jig assembly is designed specifically for the semi-auto versions sold by other manufacturers and the use of the SEF trigger pack. This unit accurately locates the Class II cutout shape for only that select-fire trigger group to fit onto the semi-auto frame without any modification to the semi receiver. The entire completion process may be easily done with only a Dremel tool and its metal cutting disc in less than 10 minutes. A patent has been applied for (patent pending).


Copied from the ad for the jig. Seems to state that is used to make the cuts to allow the use of a SEF trigger pack on a semi auto receiver. As the cuts shown in the jig do not appear to be anywhere deep enough to remove the front pin hole the is required for semi only use it seems to be used to allow the use of a select fire pack in a semi only receiver. As the seller states in his ad that this jig is used to make class 2 cuts and confirmed this fact to me in an email your post is confusing GP

gunplumber
February 24, 2017, 12:32
I'm sorry, I'm 100% wrong an you are partially correct. I did not enlarge the image enough to see that it is for a non-standard conversion.

This conversion is PART of what is required to put a select fire grip frame on a semiauto receiver. It is the modification I used on all my post-sample trigger packs.

What I erroneously thought I was seeing was this cut, which is normal for converting a select fire to a semiauto only TMH (neither of which is a machinegun by itself).

https://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/notes-hk-tut-sw3/notes-hk-tut-sw3-tmh-07.jpg

Yes, the cut in the image is more shallow so as to retain the auto sear hole and clear the shelf.

The modified trigger housing still will not fit on a semiauto receiver without also modifying the grip frame. There are two ways to modify the grip frame. One can modify it to fit on the semiauto receiver without disabling the select fire capability (which is what I did on all mine for registered post-86 sears), and one can modify it in a manner that prevents insertion of the unit with the small notch (as done in all the grip frames in the picture above). The latter requires installation of a shelf like this, or a more intricate cut making the ears both clear the shelf and block any but a fully cut TMH.

https://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/notes-hk-tut-sw3/notes-hk-tut-sw3-gripframe-05.jpg



As to whether it becomes a conversion part - technically no, but it can bring some unwanted attention. It is still is not enough without additional machine work on the grip frame, but it has no legitimate purpose that I can articulate unless one has a registered sear. Possession of one of several required parts used to make ATF scream "machinegun" until Colt started selling all their rifles with full auto bolt carriers and told ATF to get stuffed (I believe Clarence Thomas was the judge in a lower court who ruled against ATF).

Once again, I sincerely apologize to you and NFADLR for jumping the gun and assuming I was seeing the "standard" conversion jig.

NFADLR
February 24, 2017, 13:02
ETA, You are a faster typer than I.

disregard.


Mark, this jig looks to me that it made to modify the SEF trigger pack so it will fit on a HK91 ETAL to function in the full auto mode.

The clearance cut that is made looks to make it fit with the commercial HK rifles that have the shelf welded onto the receiver that is suppose to negate the push pin swing down grip frames from fitting onto the commercial HK 91 variants.

Do you contend that I am wrong ?
Or now you are in agreement ?
Do you recount your opinion that this device whilst owning a SEF trigger and a SEF grip frame constitues constructive possession at least on the federal level ?

I'm sorry, I'm 100% wrong an you are partially correct. I did not enlarge the image enough to see that it is for a non-standard conversion.

gunplumber
February 24, 2017, 13:51
Mark, this jig looks to me that it made to modify the SEF trigger pack so it will fit on a HK91 ETAL to function in the full auto mode.

One cannot use "grip frame" and "trigger mechanism housing" interchangeably as "trigger pack" as it is imprecise and a distinction with a difference.

The clearance cut that is made looks to make it fit with the commercial HK rifles that have the shelf welded onto the receiver that is suppose to negate the push pin swing down grip frames from fitting onto the commercial HK 91 variants.

you are correct, although that is only part of the equation.


Do you recount your opinion that this device whilst owning a SEF trigger and a SEF grip frame constitues constructive possession at least on the federal level ?

No, because the term "constructive possession" is thrown about as if it has objective meaning, which it does not. It is nuanced. I do agree that possession of

full auto bolt carrier + modified (as above) TMH + modified (with no block) grip frame = conversion part = machinegun (even without possession of a rifle). Yet possession of other full-auto parts, no. It is weapon-specific, because different things are required to implement the conversion.

Any one of those, not so much. Any two? I dunno. How good is your lawyer? Constructive possession requires control AND intent. In the FA bolt carrier case I mentioned above, Clarence Thomas ruled that there was no intent. But it's been a decade and I can't find the specific case to revisit it.

djfin
February 24, 2017, 15:58
GP thanks for your post correcting yourself. I do have a question about is mod. I do remember the ruling about the full auto bolts you mentioned and that was the reason for my position on this mod. I read a review of the court decision that said that because a full auto style bolt was useful in a semi auto AR-15 without converting it to full auto it was legal. The AFT opinion that I read on this subject after this ruling said that it was ok to have a full auto part as long as it served a purpose other than conversion to full auto. If the only purpose of the part was to convert to full auto then it was illegal. Kind of like putting the slide cut on the bottom of an M1A receiver which I have been told is also illegal. So as this mod serves no purpose other than to convert this rifle to select fire and does not conform to the required mods to make a legal semi auto rifle it is illegal. Your thoughts please.

gunplumber
February 24, 2017, 19:11
I understand where you're going with it, but it's still only half the equation. I agree that putting it with the auto sear and the trip, and putting the TMH into a non-blocked grip frame = machinegun (even without a rifle).

But we're talking about the TMH by itself.

Suppose I take that TMH and put a hammer in it, where the FA notch is removed. I have no trip. I have no grip frame. I have no rifle. Is that combination BY ITSELF a machinegun ( conversion part)?

It will not fit on a semi, it will not fire auto, so how is that part BY ITSELF a machinegun?

superjc
February 24, 2017, 19:31
As someone completely non-mechanically inclined, this stuff fascinates me. I remember seeing this picture of the HK-91 illegally modified & used by the North Hollywood bank robbers in the mid-90's. It looks like they somehow fit a full-auto trigger pack onto a semi lower. Doesn't that shelf interfere with the full auto mechanism? Maybe they modified that too- there were quite a few laws broken that day: **ETA maybe this thing is full-auto only? Selector is blocked on the grip frame!
http://img01.militaryblog.jp/usr/rouhei1/img1234e.jpg

NFADLR
February 24, 2017, 19:47
In your picture the shelf is just below the functional side of the mag catch.

And yes the shelf interferes with the full auto / select fire aka SEF grip frame when the grip frame is not modified from its push pin configuration, bit when the SEF grip frame push pins are removed then it fits into the area where the shelf is and then once the SEF trigger pack / box is modified with the jig in the op and the rifle has a FA BC it will function in full auto.

The grip frame in your photo looks to be semi only unless the internals of the trigger pack are modified.

At least visually it has only the two selector positions.




As someone completely non-mechanically inclined, this stuff fascinates me. I remember seeing this picture of the HK-91 illegally modified & used by the North Hollywood bank robbers in the mid-90's. It looks like they somehow fit a full-auto trigger pack onto a semi lower. Doesn't that shelf interfere with the full auto mechanism? Maybe they modified that too- there were quite a few laws broken that day: **ETA maybe this thing is full-auto only? Selector is blocked on the grip frame!
http://img01.militaryblog.jp/usr/rouhei1/img1234e.jpg

21HK
February 25, 2017, 02:18
OP, sorry to take this further off topic. For clarification the HK 91 was a semi auto.

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv139/OURVISIONS/Misc/HK%2091%20edit_zpsgaup5c0q.jpg (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/OURVISIONS/media/Misc/HK%2091%20edit_zpsgaup5c0q.jpg.html)

hkshooter
February 25, 2017, 08:11
^ Has a paddle mag installed, nice touch.
The hole blasted through the receiver gives a hint to the violence of the moment.

NFADLR
February 25, 2017, 11:02
I see a hole thru the mag but it does not look like it was made with a bullet, size and shape wrong Imo.

I see no hole thru the receiver.


^ Has a paddle mag installed, nice touch.
The hole blasted through the receiver gives a hint to the violence of the moment.

hkshooter
February 25, 2017, 11:41
I see no hole thru the receiver.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/hkshooter/img1234e_zps36jiwixc.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/hkshooter/media/img1234e_zps36jiwixc.jpg.html)

NFADLR
February 25, 2017, 12:02
Yep that's a hole..

Didn't see it for all the glare, the scrap metal must be in a glass case or sumthin.

Do you pay photobuckets ransom fee or just work thru the popups?




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/hkshooter/img1234e_zps36jiwixc.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/hkshooter/media/img1234e_zps36jiwixc.jpg.html)

21HK
February 25, 2017, 12:42
I see a hole thru the mag but it does not look like it was made with a bullet, size and shape wrong Imo.


During that whole shootout the bad guys were using AK's, pistols and an AR. I don't recall ever seeing the 91 being used. If that's the case, it was probably in the car. Photo of the scene shows a 91 A3 in the trunk. (photo below AK)
http://img01.militaryblog.jp/usr/rouhei1/img1231nb.jpg

Didn't the good guys only have shotguns and pistols until they commandeered AR's from a local gun shop. Would it be safe to assume that the hole in the 91 mag may have been caused by a deformed slug after penetrating the car?

In this link it says that a 91 recovered from the scene was fully automatic, contradicting what the description card says about the 91 A3 in the display case.
Also says another 91 was recovered from one of the suspects house.
http://img01.militaryblog.jp/usr/rouhei1/img1237y.jpg

Do you pay photobuckets ransom fee or just work thru the popups?
That's a good one!
I'm laughing because otherwise I'd be crying, photobucket and tinypic just got a piece of my mind last week. I politely told them that if I had to use either one of their sites to make a living I'd be out of business. Surprisingly they replied and said they would work on my issues. While it's still not great it's a lot better than what it has been....you might want to send them a message.

NFADLR
February 25, 2017, 13:13
That shop was B&B just down (east) the street on the north side.

B&B also got in trouble from either BATFE or Calif DOJ for lending the AR'S without proper procedures having been done first.

It's also what prompted the cops to have AR's in their cruisers.

I bypassed PB and am using imgur now.

superjc
February 25, 2017, 13:44
He did a few mag dumps with the illegally-converted HK91 & 40 round mag. It's on video. Selector only goes into "SAFE" and "FULL AUTO" apparently.

It seems that criminals who don't care about the law will just grind, file, destroy semi-auto fire & receiver to get what they want.

http://40.media.tumblr.com/7df93831fd33f6f29c625d74e727f44e/tumblr_n8u6tbfNzn1s9upipo1_500.jpg

partisan50
February 26, 2017, 09:36
In before the lock.:rofl:

Drew Eckhardt
March 03, 2017, 17:11
Only legal for you to posses said rifle when you actually had the license. if you for some reason got rid or didn't renew it bang illegal MG. Just clarifying not being a butt crack like djfin.

At current prices, $30,000 buys you one transferable HK sear or 54 years as a 07 FFL ($150 per 3 years) / class 2 SOT ($500 per year with under $500K annual gross sales).

madmax_fal
March 14, 2017, 18:14
So much unnecessary hostility towards the new guy...I'd suggest you not even bother with a jig since civilians cant posses post 86's mg's. You're better off getting a transferrable mg or waiting until a company comes out with a bump-fire stock for the G3 (if that ever happens). .308 is nearly uncontrollable on full-auto anyways. Get a new-production PTR or save up for an HK-91 and enjoy as-is :beer:

Actually, that is what I have done. But I have sure learned alot from this thread!

.30-06
March 14, 2017, 18:31
So much unnecessary hostility towards the new guy...I'd suggest you not even bother with a jig since civilians cant posses post 86's mg's. You're better off getting a transferable mg or waiting until a company comes out with a bump-fire stock for the G3 (if that ever happens). Get a new-production PTR or save up for an HK-91 and enjoy as-is.

Constructive possession can be a tricky thing. The courts overruled the ATF a while back when they were busting anyone with full auto parts. Owning a jig is legal, just like owning an HK-91, a G3 parts kit and power tools is legal, however, owning all 4 is probably enough to build a solid case against you for constructive possession. Moral of the story, I would recommend against it. Just my 0.02 :shades: