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embatp
February 16, 2017, 14:22
Loaded question I know.....got a bud looking for an AK....doesn't want century crap.....doesn't want to build.....wants. 762 x39 but not opposed to 5.45x39..

What's the hive say?

Jaxxas
February 16, 2017, 14:24
Arsenal. (http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/)

Tuhlmann
February 16, 2017, 14:33
Arsenal. Choose your flavor, and features. Arsenal will be worry-free.

rbgonoles
February 16, 2017, 15:27
Arsenal just came out with an fixed stock AK in 2017 for $850. KVAR sells them. Hard to beat it (given the prices of other American made and kit builds).

embatp
February 16, 2017, 15:54
Anyone sell rifles from parts kits on nodak receivers you guys can recommend?

def90
February 16, 2017, 16:04
Arsenal or VEPR.

Some SLR104s have been hitting the shelves recently and Arsenal just came out with a cheaper stamped receiver AK

SLR104: 5.45x39
http://www.k-var.com/shop/SLR-104-Series-5.45x39.5-Caliber-Bulgarian-Stamped-Receiver-Rifles/

SLR107: 7.62x39
http://www.k-var.com/shop/SLR107-11.html

def90
February 16, 2017, 16:08
Anyone sell rifles from parts kits on nodak receivers you guys can recommend?

There are a few guys left building kits for retail, most are building off of your provided parts. Nodaks aren't necessarily the best anymore.. Childers (uses Polish blanks) and a couple others have taken over the market. Not sure why to buy a kit built rifle though when you can get an Arsenal for the same price.

You can pay $1100 for a parts kit gun here:
http://jemakfirearms.com/products/

Or pay $800-900 for an Arsenal

Impala_Guy
February 16, 2017, 16:43
I have a super quality early James River AKM build on a matching Tula parts kit that I'd consider parting with if interested. They've had a few lemons since they started but this is my second I've had good luck with and this ones straight as an arrow.

pre1989
February 16, 2017, 16:59
Price is what you need to know ..And caliber and UF/SF etc

If price not a issue

1. Polytech Legend ..Wonderfull trigger well built AK ..Will last and last and last
2. FEG85M .. Very nice wood very well made ..Very smooth

Mid range
1. The new Fixed stock Arsenal rifles are clocking in under 900 and are very very good guns .Or most any other Aresnal gun
2. The FIME Veper with side folders or fixed stocks are great guns around 900 or so

Cheppo
1.Really right now with the crap storm over DDI,PSA ak about the only cheep AK I would say is maybe a NPAP if you put a new stock on it and
2. And def the classic the WSAR10 they new ones are much better esp if you check them out first


Me I would not do Kit build for the first gun unless you know the builder and that kit build has a good rep ... They are good guns but unless you know AK a bit I would hold off

And of course IO and all them dont even go near them

paulo
February 16, 2017, 18:54
I'll second Jemak for high quality kit built AK's. Attention to detail and quality are second to none.

nopec
February 16, 2017, 21:07
Chinese and Hungarian prebans are collector's items.

For a hard use and training piece: vepr or arsenal.

For wow factor and accuracy: rifle dynamics or krebs.

Kit builds can be iffy. It's all about the barrel and military spec hammer forged chrome lined barreled, matching numbers kits dried up a while ago and can cost as much as a vepr or arsenal.

VALMET
February 16, 2017, 22:04
+1 for Arsenal

michael_g927
February 17, 2017, 03:14
Curious as to why the Centurion 39 or C39v2 are not considered? All the big AK guys and reviewers have tested and abused them and found them both to be excellent rifles. I cannot speak about the other century AK types. But the C39 variants are proving to be pretty badass.

Right Side Up
February 17, 2017, 04:06
I've had quite a few AK's and got rid of all of them except for my Hungarian SA85. I like that gun a lot.

I never have understood the need for a milled receiver AK that is a lot heavier.

def90
February 17, 2017, 08:40
Curious as to why the Centurion 39 or C39v2 are not considered? All the big AK guys and reviewers have tested and abused them and found them both to be excellent rifles. I cannot speak about the other century AK types. But the C39 variants are proving to be pretty badass.

Who is saying they are good? I'd be very wary of anything built by Century. Their business plan is to produce a product with the primary goal of making the product cheap/affordable. That usually requires that corners be cut somewhere along the line.

slavicshooter
February 17, 2017, 10:06
Who is saying they are good? I'd be very wary of anything built by Century. Their business plan is to produce a product with the primary goal of making the product cheap/affordable. That usually requires that corners be cut somewhere along the line.

I think Robski at AKOU pounded the pi$$ out of one and the C39 passed the test with flying colors. I've not owned one, so that's all I can say about the rifle.~ssİ

hansellhd
February 17, 2017, 23:54
Curious as to why the Centurion 39 or C39v2 are not considered? All the big AK guys and reviewers have tested and abused them and found them both to be excellent rifles. I cannot speak about the other century AK types. But the C39 variants are proving to be pretty badass.

LOL


Arsenal or VEPR, forget anything made by Century in the U.S.

michael_g927
February 18, 2017, 01:06
I saw several reviews where the rifles were trashed and still performed. I never saw any vids of the brands mentioned here being tested like this. Might be too much for the pop rivets to take.
Century has earned the rep they have. I agree. The company that makes the C39 is a dedicated AK shop. Century has nothing to do with the production at all. I don't think anything on the rifle is surplus.
Anyway, I don't care to debate it. Just wondered why they were not mentioned, that's all.

gunplumber
February 18, 2017, 10:17
Arsenal just came out with an fixed stock AK in 2017 for $850. KVAR sells them. Hard to beat it (given the prices of other American made and kit builds).

This, or the 107F if you want a folder.

Or the 104 in 5.45.

Curious as to why the Centurion 39 or C39v2 are not considered? All the big AK guys and reviewers have tested and abused them and found them both to be excellent rifles. I cannot speak about the other century AK types. But the C39 variants are proving to be pretty badass.

Century Arms has been f-cking over stupid people for 25 years or more. Between them and Uli at I/O, they are in heavy competition for lowest quality everything. But most Americans are fat, lazy, and most of all - STUPID! They look for "what's cheapest?" and Century sees them as lawful prey.

As a professional gunsmith for 25+ years, one would think I have an interest in lots of broken guns so I can make loads of money fixing them. But no. Century guns are of such low quality that I won't even accept them for repairs. Just like I won't accept certain cheap handguns - Lorcin, Davis, etc.

Tuhlmann
February 18, 2017, 10:39
.
Anyway, I don't care to debate it. Just wondered why they were not mentioned, that's all.

Because we all know better, that's why.

kmurphy
February 18, 2017, 11:38
I'll second Jemak for high quality kit built AK's. Attention to detail and quality are second to none.


For a kit built rifle, they are extrememy nice! I second Pauls second.

GunDog2006
February 18, 2017, 15:30
I personally think the best AK you can have is the one that you've already bought, tested, tried and proven is reliable.

What you gotta do is start accumulating some "mileage" about AK's on your own, buy one, try it, see if you like it... if not, sell it and try something else. No words written here are going to guarantee any weapon will or could actually be used to defend your life. There are a lot of variables to that equation. Like... you get caught up in a looter party in some major city, all hell breaks loose and people are killed around you... your sled defense AK was safe at home in the gun safe at the time... etc, etc... variables.

Personally, I can't say that I've put thousands of rounds into any of them... I'm just a civvy, loves guns, been shooting my whole life, but not a 10,000 round range tester guy... just a normal Joe Consumer...

And... for the record.. Just because it says "Arsenal" on the side, doesn't mean its gonna guarantee you a perfect rifle. Just because you pay a bunch of money for one doesn't mean the one you got is worth keeping... There are and can be lemons in anything and any brand of thing a human being can make. Nothing made by man is going to be 100%, without a shadow of a doubt, perfect every time.

A few years back I paid all the big bucks for an Arsenal SAM7SF side folder... coughed out the $1,300 for the thing... did a lay-a-way as a lot of working folks do... couldn't wait to get it in my hands. Spent all of the lay-a-way time daydreaming about how cool it would be to finally own (uhhh...) "the best AK."

The SAM7SF I bought came with a scope mount on the side. Well... I've seen recent Arsenal builds and evidently they are doing better and have changed the way they attached the side mounted scope mount to their rifles when it comes to (for instance) on a stamped rifle it is a rivet like thing in the mag well that attaches the front of the scope rail to the receiver... In a milled gun, it is a bit different thingy. I'm not a gun smith, I don't know what the attaching thing is called.

But that thing protruded so far into the mag well on the rifle I got, that you could not get a steel mag in the thing without it putting a major guoge on the side of the steel mag.

I ruined three really nice E. German steel mags before I realized what the gun was doing to my mags. I didn't force them, but they went in very rough.

I had used these same mags on about a half dozen other AKs, like an old H.W. Bush weapons ban thumbhole stock milled Norinco MAK-90, I also had a pretty cool Norinco 56S that was a pre-Bush-ban pre-ban that was a stamped receiver. Never have I ever had troubles like that with AK receivers not liking any kind of mags, period... nor any kind of ammo for that reason, but this Arsenal never made it to the range with me. I traded the SAM7SF to a gun smith for some stuff I wanted for a big loss and marked it up to mileage and learning about guns.

Before I traded her off, I did call Arsenal about the issue, and instead of saying (what I would have expected to hear for my thirteen hundred bucks...) "oh, I understand sir, please send us the rifle and we'll make the adjustment"... etc, etc, etc...

No, it was, "well, sir, we do not support using our rifles with any other magazines other than our own Arsenal-made magazines like the one that was sent with your rifle."

Trying to explain that the simple design of the AK rifle itself should be able to take any fairly well made rifle magazine on the planet (which was kind of why I was spending the big bucks, right...)... didn't do any good.

I can say I probably enjoyed the hell out of that milled receiver Norinco MAK-90 a hell of a lot more than the time that Arsenal was in my life. Plus, back before Bill Clinton was President, milled receiver thumb-hole stock MAK-90s could be had, for $285 and even less. My buddy had bought an entire case of them and I KNOW he made money selling me it for the $285. Personally, since that was my first, last and only time dealing with an Arsenal rifle, I cannot for the life of me justify paying so much for that particular style of rifle. Unless (I suppose) you just want the bragging rights to be able to say "I had one"...

IMHO, better to buy a gun in person and NOT off the web. I'd rather touch it, smell it, fondle it and drool all over it before I made up my mind to buy it. That was one of the problems with my Arsenal buy, I bought it from an Internet gun dealer, did the FFL transfer to my house sight unseen, relying only on the Arsenal name, thinking it would be the best AK on planet earth.

NOT.

Actually, I think anymore I'd rather have a slightly scratched, used gun, that I know for sure has already ate lots of rounds and sent lead blasting down the range... over buying another weapon over the Internet.

Just had/saw/witnessed a good friend of mine make his first AK buy. Decided, because of the price, to go with an I.O., Inc (Inter-Ordnance) AKM-247, stamped receiver, synthetic stocks, yeah, that one. He gave $549.99 for it and couldn't wait to get it off the Internet and through the typical FFL transfer, etc...

Yikes...

He got the gun and took it out to shoot it. At about 30 feet it was hitting about 6 inches to the left. Took a close look at the sight block... severely canted to the left. The thing looked as if someone had slung it against a tree or something and bent both of the surrounds around the sight peg to the left.

So.... he sent it to I.O., Inc... the "fixed it" and sent it back.

He took it to the range the next day, loaded a mag in it... would not fire now. Racked that shell out, tried one more... did not fire.

Got the shells off the ground, looked at the bottoms, the firing pin had not fully engaged the primer on either round.

So... he sent the rifle back and the Internet dealer gave him a full refund. I am thinking that is probably a rare thing these days, once they sell a gun, they put you in this "you gotta deal with the factory" crud.

So, I've seen two cases where it was just dumb luck to get a lemon with two different brands. One that cost way too much money named Arsenal, and one that was ridiculously cheap, named I.O., Inc.

So... whatchagonnado.....

The only thing that will get you there is experience. You can't post here and get any experience at all at the range. Guns don't go bang here in the forums, they are subject to opinions and a lot of times folks who quote "buy this or but that", have not ever even BOUGHT one of these or one of those... its a lot like that with musical instruments. You got the big name makers, like Gibson and Fender, and the forums that tell you how great they all are, even of you've never really have OWNED either one, you know you read it somewhere, so it must be true 100% of the time. NOT.

Go buy a car, be it a Honda, Chevy, Yugo, or Mercedes... you're gonna run into a lemon. But when you find one that works for you, then you drive the wheels off it. But you have to BUY the car first, you can't day dream about makes, models, options, features, accessories, blah, blah, blah..

If we were talking pharmaceutical companies, then its just "take a pill."... I've never been as sick as when I just trusted the American medical Association to OK new drugs, then advertise them on TV, then get prescribed them by my doctor, only to find out later they'll make you sicker than if you didn't "take a pill."

"Reading up" on rifle is a good thing. I think what you'll find is there are some brands out there that people have had troubles with on a higher percentage than others most of the time, and people tend to steer clear of those brands for a reason, or at least they heard there was a reason.

When the Century Arms folks came out with the Polish Tantals a few years back, they started out some of their runs with the wrong barrels. The Tantal is an AK-74 derivative, therefore it is built with a 5.45x39 caliber. In 1974 Russia re-designed the tried and true AK-47 (been around since ...yup you guessed it, 1947) and designed the AK-74 around the smaller round more similar to the M-16/AR-15 round (smaller, easier to carry more rounds, etc) which has a caliber of 5.56x45 (aka in Civvy terms as a .223REM)...

Well the dumdums at Century on these few (not all) Tantals were installing barrels with the 5.56 caliber instead of the correct 5.45 caliber and the rifles with a certain set of serial numbers made by Century, sold as Polish Tantals, would shoot bullets, so they could (ahem) "test fire" them at Century, but down range the bullets could hit pointed sided in, or they would land flat side of the bullet hits the target, what fun. I had one of those Tantals back then, too...

That's not counting the 2 completely different Century-built CETME rifles (they are caliber 7.62x51NATO, aka .308WIN) I bought at two separate locations at two separate times, and both of them... neither one could you even in Superman's wildest wet dreams, have been able to pull the charging handle back more than once. One I bought at a gun show from a guy and it "seemed" ok, no charging problems that day... and the other I bought used at a pawn shop in another town months apart. Both had issues with the charging handle not operating right.

That's THREE lemons from Century in just one customer (me). This and things like this are some of the reasons people bitch about Century. You just don't get to hear them bitch very often about makes like Arsenal, but it happens. I'm thinking Inter-Ordnance has had their quality issues, too...

BUT, >>> not wanting my decisions in life to be run by other people's opinions on gun forums, I gave Century (yet) another shot (having never yet bought one of their rifles that would actually fire correctly...). One of the Internet dealers was running a sale on Century-built Polish Tantals for $399, so I bit and bought one. This was when the Russian 7N6 ammo for the Tantal was $149 for 1,000rds... this was pre-Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting when Obama exploited all the dead kids in an all out all out war on guns... after which the prices skyrocketed. The Libs are by far the best gun salesmen on the planet, haha.

Well, that little Tantal turned out to be one of them "Wednesday" builds. In the auto industry if you get a really good car with few problems they say "it was built on a Wednesday", or was a "Wednesday Build." Meaning it wasn't built on Friday when everybody was in a hurry to go home for the weekend. And it wasn't built on a Monday when people would have rather stayed at home for another day after the weekend.

The thing shoots true, as accurate as any other AKs I've owned. At the time I was planning on buying two or three of them and maybe a couple parts kits of the same. Then Sandy Hook happened, Diane Feinstein and all the left-wing gun haters happened, the prices almost tripled, and I never got the chance to buy all that stuff, so I still got just the one Tantal.

I never heard the "official" story from Century about the mixed up barrels.

I did later learn that Poland has two different style AKs named this similar way. They name their gun Tantal, from the chemical element "Tantalum" (atomic number 73) off of chemist's periodic table of the elements... and they also have another weapon called the "Beryl" which is named for another element on the periodic table of the elements, "Beryllium" (atomic number 4)... And the BERYL rifles are made in the 5.56x45 (aka .223REM) round.

What I guess was the mix up or whatever, is that (evidently) Century at that time had been sent parts kits for both Tantals and Beryls and were installing the Beryl (5.56) rifles on the (supposed to be 5.45) Tantals, thus giving them the wrong barrel caliber... or something like that...

Just one more reason folks hate Century.

But, what the hell ... I love my little Tantal. Its a great gun, it cost only $400 bucks brand new, and everybody on the planet said I shouldn't buy one... haha. I think they call that "getting lucky bucking the system..."

Well, that took some words to say, and might be worth spit nothing, but there it is from my 2 cents worth and from stuff I've seen with my eyes and touched with my hands, as a gun nut, non-military, non-law enforcement, just a regular working guy with not much of a gun budget...

:homerdrool::homerdrool:

GDavis
February 18, 2017, 16:24
I personally think the best AK you can have is the one that you've already bought, tested, tried and proven is reliable.



Well said- especially the first sentence.

gunplumber
February 18, 2017, 18:22
Actually, it's pretty retarded. One cannot gain experience until one purchases one. The OP is asking for a guy who hasn't got one, and wants to puchase one. So "the one you got" is the stupidest answer possible.

The better assessment is, what is the most statistical probable value purchase I can make? And that is, 100%, an Arsenal - either fixed or folding, as perceived need dictates.

Yes, Arsenal has shit customer service, and their finish is crap, and sometimes they have canted sights. Even with all these strikes against them, there isn't anyone else who even comes close in value (features, quality, probability of correct) for the money.

I've built well over a thousand AKs, I own 9 Arsenal 104s. I used to have a bunch of 107s as well. There is no other AK I can recommend, based on my vast and intimate experience with every aspect of the rifle (including publishing my Gunplumber's Guide to Gunsmithing: AK Rifles.) http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401241

Jaxxas
February 18, 2017, 20:05
Well I was the second poster here, and I recommended an Arsenal because I actually have one and I really like it! It's a SAM7R, a Texas Weapons Systems top rail, Primary Arms red dot and Ironwood Stocks. In fact everybody who has shot it really likes it. My daughter actually prefers it over a real sweet AR with an ACOG mounted. Friend of mine has a real nice Polytech Spiker and he thinks the Arsenal is much more accurate than his Spiker. If I do my part I can hit out to 250-300 yds about 75% of the time. But then I suck. I have probably somewhere between 1-2K rounds through it without a hiccup.


http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss317/The_JaXXas/arsenal2_zpsnojvbgjc.png (http://s587.photobucket.com/user/The_JaXXas/media/arsenal2_zpsnojvbgjc.png.html)

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss317/The_JaXXas/arsenal1_zpswef4atbx.png (http://s587.photobucket.com/user/The_JaXXas/media/arsenal1_zpswef4atbx.png.html)


If this was the only gun I could go to during SHTF I wouldn't feel slighted in the least.

YMMV

Guy-epic
February 18, 2017, 20:16
I saw some great recommendations, my person favorite is a FEG AMD65 so many cool things you can do easily

Bubacus
February 18, 2017, 20:22
Not sure if he is into RPKs, but Arsenal also has a nice one:

http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/images/D/sarpk7r550x350.jpg

grumpy1
February 18, 2017, 21:31
I would have to say the Pre ban Polytech Legend is the best. They were built to last. Have a milled receiver, great trigger, chrome lined barrel. Both of mine are great and I'd be hard pressed to sell one. Still have some original mags in the wrappers.

I you can't find one or afford a Plytech Legend, I would look at the Arsenal and then the Veper.

You can buy cheaper and take a hit when you sell it to get something better, or you can take a hit up front and not worry about having to loose money reselling it. My Polytechs cost about $600 back in 1988. Just wish I could have picked up a couple dozen for an investment.

def90
February 18, 2017, 22:46
Basically it comes down to.. You can get an Arsenal for $50 to $100 more than a Century, kit build or any other US made Ak.. That's like saying you could buy an FN FAL for $50 to $100 more than a Century, DSA or any US assembled kit FAL.. WTF would you not buy the Arsenal or the FN?

I guess the Fiberglass RePro Ferrari body on the Fiero is just as good as the Ferrari?

As for the PolyTech and other no longer importable AKs go.. Yes they are good rifles.. Not too many people are buying them to shoot on a regular basis. You are talking about a collector vs a practical rifle. I'm not investing in a PolyTech to throw 2000 rounds down the barrel per year.

Combloc
February 19, 2017, 09:42
Why not? You aren't going to hurt it. I've been happily blasting away with my Chicoms since the 80's. They are the best I've ever used and I can't imagine a better AK.

gunplumber
February 19, 2017, 10:08
I would have to say the Pre ban Polytech Legend is the best.

Why? 1st pattern AK, not even an AKM, not interchangeable with any other except for early Yugo, and more than half the price is collector value totally unrelated to its function. Every time you shoot it it loses value. Until it's value drops to pure functional, which remains below that of an Arsenal or any other AKM pattern. That is, if you want to do anything with other than take off your clothes, light candles, and fondle it, it is a horrible choice. You want the limitations of a Chinese AK pattern, get a Mak 90 (neutered) and leave it neutered. Which is almost the cost of a original condition Arsenal, but at least then you can croon over it being "built to last".

I had a bunch of them when they were $225 and ammo was less than $0.10/rd. Did all kinds of customizing on them because they were the cheap imports. They only became valuable after the Republican's import ban, and then Clinton's trade agreement to ban even the thumbholes, mags, and ammo from import (MFN Status). Got another dozen of Jing An & Prochine varieties when Sembridge closed. For a fighting rifle, I'd have traded any one of them, for a bulgy folder, in a heartbeat.

If I were a collector, and just hanging them on the wall, Chinese rifles offer a lot of choices for an interesting collection.

Collector rifle. Jing An from Stembridge, used on set of Red Dawn (value around $1000)

https://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/smith-ak/smith-ak-gallery-china-05.jpg

107FR style rifle (Khyber pass). Value around $1000

https://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/smith-ak/smith-ak-gallery-kp-01.jpg

nopec
February 19, 2017, 10:56
Hey Gunplumber - What are your thoughts on the VEPRs?

gunplumber
February 19, 2017, 11:08
Hey Gunplumber - What are your thoughts on the VEPRs?

complete waste of time and money, as are the Saiga sporters.

But indicative of the fat/lazy/stupid American. "Hey this is cheap!" I'll buy it!

And then "what do you mean it will cost me more than the price of a factory Bulgy rifle to convert this Saiga sporter back to original configuration?"

Ahh - (insert fake Russian Accent here) built by drunken Russian - better much than drunken Bulgarian. Da, eto verno!

See that little Izmash stamp - that makes it oh so superior to your ((10)) stamp!

VEPRs? Like a milled AK, you can evaluate it's handling characteristics by duct-taping a brick to a stamped AK.

CTW
February 19, 2017, 13:31
I have owned Wasr-10's, a Mak-90 and an Arsenal SLR-107FR and I have to say out of the box the Arsenal is the best one. My Chinese was a fine gun, but as Gunplumber pointed out is not compatible with other AKM products/accessories. Some of my Wasr-10's were decent values and some not. I would not buy one sight unseen.

Skilter
February 19, 2017, 19:14
Arsenal...

GP will not say it, but if you can find one of his Romanian AKs he built in x39. Grab it. If you can find one of his 5.45s... grab it. Other than that if you want off the shelf and " I don't want to F' with it or doubt it..." buy the Arsenal.

AK market has drastically changed over the last 5-7 years. A lot of good and bad builders have gotten out of the market. You will find both at shows and if you don't know what you are looking at, then you can get really screwed. The chance of getting screwed is much more than the chance o of getting lucky if you don't know your markings. IF you really know what you are doing you can find a late 90's milled kit built by Sledgehammer or GP, but good luck. We hold on to those. :wink:

paulo
February 19, 2017, 20:28
For what it's worth Jemak is selling out their remaining stock of Nodak rifles for $200 below list. Non Cerakoted.

paulo
February 19, 2017, 20:34
JEMAK Firearms

6 hrs ·
..

While we are switching our AK74 receivers to Childers Guns we will have a special on our current supply of Classic AK74s built on Nodak receivers. Each remaining rifle will be sold as is and without Cerakote or wood refinishing. Quantities are limited and available until supplies run out. You will need to request a rifle through our website or email us at info@jemakfirearms.com.

The price will be $200 less than listed prices. This includes a cash discount. 3% will be added to the total for credit card orders.

Here is the ad. Mods, if this in not acceptable please remove.

armed2012
February 20, 2017, 02:38
Do your self a favor if finances permit and pick up a valmet m76 in 7.62X39, dont worry it wont ever break.

They are the caddy of AKS

If your not working with that kind of scratch buy an arsenal, if you cant afford an arsenal wait until you can, i wouldnt own anything century builds, would consider one of there old romi imports any day before there new junk, ive played with there new junk, i have an ffl and had most of the new stuff incase hillary won, when she didnt i decided to play with some, get one the yugos they imported before you mesd with there junk, the serbian guns are quality...

Valmet
Polytech
Norinco
Factory serbian or yugo
Arsenal
Vepr

gunplumber
February 20, 2017, 09:01
Arsenal...

GP will not say it, but if you can find one of his Romanian AKs he built in x39.

Well, yes, of course, I will say it. Any AK I built is fabulous. But since I no longer build for resale, and most of my customers are not interested in parting with theirs, it wouldn't really answer the OP's question. And as for custom builds, with a hundred FALs coming in this quarter, I am not accepting any new AK builds in the foreseeable future.

The question, at least as I read it, is "what is the best value in a 7.62 AK" (will consider 5.45)

Now I interpret "value" to be that point on the price/quality continuum where there is a plateau. increasing the price does not increase value. That is usually followed by a spike, where a dramatic increase in price equates to a subtle (and often spiritual) increase in value. This is the buy point for most things. Century guns fall way below this point. While they have good price at 40-50% below the line, they have poor value. Rifle Dynamics and "collector" AKs, fall far above this point at plateau + 100%. Their price is far beyond the practical value and way into the intangible "spiritual" realm. My builds are a little above the line. Yes, the quality is there, and that quality manifests as confidence. But the price remains only 20% above the Arsenal is right there on the plateau. So when the 104 FRs came out, I sold all my personal 5.45 builds for $1400-$1500 and bought Arsenals for $1100. I knew if there was an issue with the Arsenal I could fix it easily. And the known issues (shitty trigger pull, shitty finish, possibly canted sights) I could rectify in no time at all.

Brian in MN
February 20, 2017, 10:56
I recently purchased one of these: https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/german-ak-47-ddr-7-62x39mm-rifle-detail.html?Itemid=0


...because I wanted a late AKM with scope rail and the late angled gas block. Build quality is excellent.


On the other hand, I like the 5.45 round much, much better than 7.62 x 39.

Bubacus
February 20, 2017, 11:55
Very nice repro of the MPi K. I always loved the German brown furniture. You may also look for a ban era Bulgarian SLR 95 and do what you want with the furniture.

Impala_Guy
February 20, 2017, 13:15
Nodak, Childers. and James River receivers have all been in my collection, though I have yet to shoot the Childers they have a good reputation. I have two JR's on rooskie kits and the shooter has run perfectly. The formed receiver isn't really the part of a combloc kit akm that has the potential to get screwed up, the quality of the spot welds, the riveting, and the barrel work are so buying sight unseen should come with a return less shipping guarantee The metallurgy of a comblock front trunion and bolt are usually not in question.

I'd like to see what it would take to wear out or destroy a quality kit build or what would make them less relaiable or durable than a pre ban Finnish or Chinese ak.

hansellhd
February 20, 2017, 13:16
I recently purchased one of these: https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/german-ak-47-ddr-7-62x39mm-rifle-detail.html?Itemid=0


...because I wanted a late AKM with scope rail and the late angled gas block. Build quality is excellent.


On the other hand, I like the 5.45 round much, much better than 7.62 x 39.

Just about any of the Atlantic Kit Builds are excellent.

hansellhd
February 20, 2017, 13:23
Do your self a favor if finances permit and pick up a valmet m76 in 7.62X39, dont worry it wont ever break.

They are the caddy of AKS

If your not working with that kind of scratch buy an arsenal, if you cant afford an arsenal wait until you can, i wouldnt own anything century builds, would consider one of there old romi imports any day before there new junk, ive played with there new junk, i have an ffl and had most of the new stuff incase hillary won, when she didnt i decided to play with some, get one the yugos they imported before you mesd with there junk, the serbian guns are quality...

Valmet
Polytech
Norinco
Factory serbian or yugo
Arsenal
Vepr

I would rate them like this

IMI Galil (pre ban)
Valmet (pre-ban
IWI Galil
Arsenal
VEPR
Atlantic Kit Builds
Chinese/Yugo dead tie.

My ratings are based on what I own and shoot. I never considered the Chinese AK a high quality weapon, they made a good serviceable rifle that's about it. Back in the Day if one compared them to the Galil/Valmet/HK/Steyr/FN they looked like Crap. It still cracks me up watching collectors pay thousands for a rifle that in my mind is worth no more than $800.00.

Near Sighted Sniper
February 20, 2017, 13:50
Why not? You aren't going to hurt it. I've been happily blasting away with my Chicoms since the 80's. They are the best I've ever used and I can't imagine a better AK.


I agree 1000%. The Chinese AK's are my favorite, If I had tons of $$ they would be the only AK's I own.
I have 1 Arsenal [SLR104-31] it's pretty, I'll give it that... But honestly it's not anything special & it definitely wouldn't be my SHTF rifle,the trigger is NOT my favorite. I am in no way defending Century, but the ones that I have in my collection all work exactly like they were meant to. I have had my share of problems with them over the years, Had the Tantal with the wrong barrel, took me months to get them to take it back, I use to call them weekly & argue with them about the barrel, they never admitted to me that they messed up, but in the end I did get my $$ back. I had to send back 2 PSL's both were recalled for the 3rd hole fiasco. My M76 went back to them for FTE issues, they fixed it & it now functions flawlessly. Other rifles I have bought from them have ran flawlessly from the start. My Cetme use to be one of my favorites, always ran great but then I added an M1A, DPMS LR 308, PTR91 & various FAL's to the collection so the Cetme took a back seat to those. But when it was my one & only .308 rifle it made every range trip & never once let me down.
I guess what I am trying to say is that everyone can produce a bad firearm but that doesn't mean that all of that companies wares are always bad.
If your buddy comes across a smokin deal on a Century AK I say give it a chance, it might wind up serving him well & saving him some $$ for ammo & mags.

slavicshooter
February 20, 2017, 16:59
Assuming you're doing the build and not Mrs.ss on Saturday night, what new parts would you assemble for a no frills AK47 Mark? And to clarify, this is made with the same factory parts Molot, Arsenal, would use. Your best value AK. Thanks Mark
~ss

gunplumber
February 20, 2017, 19:19
Assuming you're doing the build and not Mrs.ss on Saturday night, what new parts would you assemble for a no frills AK47 Mark? And to clarify, this is made with the same factory parts Molot, Arsenal, would use. Your best value AK. Thanks Mark
~ss

Don't understand no frills and Molot parts.

I've built rack grade Romy Gs that shoot sub-moa with reloads. The weak link of the gun is the cartridge - ballistics of a football.

Nothing wrong with a Romy G with original barrel.

I've been pleased with the Radom barrels as far as component fit, but 3 of the last 4 shot significantly to the left. So much so that I checked the calibration on my alignment fixture and it was within .0004" over 3', according to my DRO. Yet I don't trust the DRO, to closer than .0005" and the tolerance on the alignment gauge is only .0005. I checked it again when I came back from the range, and the worst I could get was +/- .0015" over 3'. So it's not me.

Anyway - I've not been impressed with the Childer's receivers - the last underfolder I did had the holes so far out of alignment I had to weld them up and reposition. Others have been adequate, but no better than a Nodak at twice the price and a long wait.

So a NDS-1 and an original barrel Romy G is the most value I think. If you have to go to a US barrel the polish UF kit is nicer machine work, but those with original barrels are pretty scarce. Just lose the UF for a standard stock, or use a Polish Beryl side folder instead of the UF. UF are cool, but not nearly as practical as a SF.

In 5.45, I did 200+ of the original barrel Bulgy kits, but I can't build one for the price of an Arsenal.

https://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/notes-finish-wood/notes-finish-wood-ak-2-02.jpg

https://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/notes-finish-wood/notes-finish-wood-ak-1-12.jpg

embatp
February 20, 2017, 20:14
So.....crappy paint, crappy trigger and canted sights.....arsenals sound kinda century like.....

rbgonoles
February 20, 2017, 20:14
So.....crappy paint, crappy trigger and canted sights.....arsenals sound kinda century like.....

Except they work reliably

slavicshooter
February 20, 2017, 21:29
Mark, you defined no frills as rack grade which is what I meant. On the parts, I meant if you could use the parts that major OEM's use for their builds. Are there significant quality differences at the parts level on factory builds? Thanks.~ss

Story
February 22, 2017, 10:13
Loaded question I know.....got a bud looking for an AK....doesn't want century crap.....doesn't want to build.....wants. 762 x39 but not opposed to 5.45x39..

What's the hive say?

This is the land of WECSOG. There can be only one response - roll his own.

Make him read this
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!

while listening to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKMG-FdCGtM

gunplumber
February 22, 2017, 12:14
Mark, you defined no frills as rack grade which is what I meant. On the parts, I meant if you could use the parts that major OEM's use for their builds. Are there significant quality differences at the parts level on factory builds? Thanks.~ss

"Major OEMs" use whatever they can get from overseas if they are the importer, or from the importer.

I used Romy G kits because they were the ones available. Then I used Bulgy kits and Polish kits because that's what was available. I never cared for the AMDs.

The thing about surplus, is eventually it runs out. Then those building for resale have to switch to something else. Those Romy G kits I bought by the pallet @ $99 are now $550. Yes, I'd have made more money sitting on the kits for 5 years and reselling them, than I did building them into rifles.

slavicshooter
February 22, 2017, 12:28
This is the land of WECSOG. There can be only one response - roll his own.

Make him read this
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!

while listening to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKMG-FdCGtM

Tooooo funny! Thanks Story. Great post.~ss

grumpy1
February 22, 2017, 14:35
The question, at least as I read it, is "what is the best value in a 7.62 AK" (will consider 5.45)

I knew if there was an issue with the Arsenal I could fix it easily. And the known issues (shitty trigger pull, shitty finish, possibly canted sights) I could rectify in no time at all.

So Mark, you question why a Polytech Legend is better. Well I took it out of the box, I loaded the mags and shoot the gun. I've never had to fix anything with my Polytech's because they were built right in the first place. There were no canted sights, no ejection problems, no shity finish, no shity trigger pull. As for the milled reciever, well why not have a milled reciever. Yes it maybe heavier but it's also a hell of a lot stronger. I've never heard of a Polytech reciever having the holes drilled in the wrong spot. I've never noticed that my Polytech weighed that much more than my friends AK's with the exception of the under folders. So if I understand you correctly Mark, a gun isn't good unless you have to fix things first?

Now your understanding of the OP's question differs from mine. I read it as what's the best AK his friend can buy not build? One can buy a Century AK for $500 and then throw another $1k at it trying to fix it and still not have "the best AK" out there because at the end of the day if he tries to sell it it still will be worth no more then the best Century AK will bring, which to any one with any knowledge is going to be less than other markers out there. While building gjns is fun, trying to resale one is always going to be a crap shoot, unless you have a good reputation (like yourself) for building quality firearms.

gunplumber
February 22, 2017, 15:05
So Mark, you question why a Polytech Legend is better.

No, I don't. I know emphatically it isn't.

Well I took it out of the box, I loaded the mags and shoot the gun. I've never had to fix anything

you don't hear about the thousands of guns nobody has a problem with.

As for the milled reciever, well why not have a milled reciever. Yes it maybe heavier but it's also a hell of a lot stronger.

No, it's not. It is only heavier. "Stronger" is a meaningless term. As a former infantryman, "heavier" must come with a significant upside. In this case, there is none.

I've never heard of a Polytech reciever having the holes drilled in the wrong spot.

No - problem is usually an extra hole. But I've never heard of an Arsenal with the holes drilled in the wrong spot either.

I've never noticed that my Polytech weighed that much more than my friends AK's with the exception of the under folders. So if I understand you correctly Mark, a gun isn't good unless you have to fix things first?

I understand your desperation to defend an indefensible position, but really? Why spend $2000+ for a collector AK that immediately loses all collector value when you treat it like a fighting rifle, when you can buy a functionally superior rifle for half the price?

Now your understanding of the OP's question differs from mine.

Yes, because I have reading comprehension.

I read it as what's the best AK his friend can buy not build? One can buy a Century AK for $500 and then throw another $1k at it trying to fix it and still not have "the best AK" out there because at the end of the day if he tries to sell it it still will be worth no more then the best Century AK will bring

Strawman much? I don't recommend Century manufactured anything.

embatp
February 22, 2017, 16:52
Ok....let's revisit this for a minute.....so what ak can he buy that doesn't have traditional ak problems.....canted sights etc? I can't imagine it's impossible to buy one without issues....that don't require sending it to a smith or the factory ?

gunplumber
February 22, 2017, 17:01
Ok....let's revisit this for a minute.....so what ak can he buy that doesn't have traditional ak problems.....canted sights etc? I can't imagine it's impossible to buy one without issues....that don't require sending it to a smith or the factory ?

Arsenal - Jeez. They have a couple out of thousands with canted sights and everyone shits themselves!

embatp
February 22, 2017, 17:35
Arsenal - Jeez. They have a couple out of thousands with canted sights and everyone shits themselves!

Well that's what I wanted to know.....everyone recommended them then the horror stories appeared.....I just don't want to recommend something to him that's got issues....

Thanks for the responses.....

gunplumber
February 22, 2017, 17:53
Well that's what I wanted to know.....everyone recommended them then the horror stories appeared.....I just don't want to recommend something to him that's got issues....

Thanks for the responses.....

Like Kokalis sees *** ONE *** .308 galil in Central America with a cracked receiver at the rear, and suddenly ".308 Galils receivers crack." Even thirty years later that myth is going around.

Nothing is mentioned of the hundred thousand that didn't crack.

Heck, I've repaired a 50:00 with a cracked receiver!

Now if Arsenal had better customer service, people wouldn't spend as much time venting their displeasure on the net. They'd be out shooting.

hkshooter
February 22, 2017, 22:32
Where are these $850 Arsenals? I've been to Kvar's site twice and didn't find them.

gunplumber
February 23, 2017, 08:06
Where are these $850 Arsenals? I've been to Kvar's site twice and didn't find them.

Still waiting, I guess. http://www.recoilweb.com/premium-arsenal-rifles-123838.html

Brian in MN
February 23, 2017, 12:31
You can wait for the vaporware or take my suggestion.

While I have not made a career out of searching for Atlantic DDR reviews, I have not read a single complaint so far.

Unlike Arsenal, Atlantic does have excellent customer service.

Brian in MN
February 23, 2017, 12:48
There is an active thread on these over at the AK Files. http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298844

The thread is into the second page. Notice how many complaints there are about the quality of the builds.

Zero.

Incognito
February 25, 2017, 11:15
The only bad thing I have heard about the Arsenals is their finish. Rob Ski has a video over at AK Operator's Union where he confronts the Arsenal rep at shot show about this. The rep defends the finish by saying that Arsenal attempts to present the closest representation to a stock service grade AK to the civilian market. Therefore, they use the same finish as the mil spec rifles. That is fair I guess but what civilian really wants the finish to bubble up on the barrel of their rifle? That said I would still buy an Arsenal over any of the other factory AKs. But my preference is to buy one from a good builder. I recently bought a Polish underfolder that was build by a reputable builder and it is fantastic. But those deals are not always easy to find.

michael_g927
February 26, 2017, 11:09
I made a statement in the DSA barrel quality thread that infuriated those with high appreciation of their own opinions.
Looking at the thread link posted above further validated my observations over the lengths of my lifetime.
Tank boy starts out by admitting he DOES NOT own the product in question but then goes on to give his opinion on American recievers and barrels.
The next two posts are from Brian in MN and Barmonkey who both DO own product in question and are in agreement that said product is of good quality.
When it comes to the gun world, egoes overload the information highway. That shoukd be your first red flag that the information presented has very low value content. Expecially when it comes to negative opinions based upon no provable experience.
Its like a bunch of virgins sitting around talking about sex. Worthless.

gunplumber
February 27, 2017, 09:23
I made several strawman arguments in the DSA barrel quality thread and gunplumber bitch-slapped me there too. I keep popping my head up from under my rock, and he keeps whacking me with a Cudgel! It's all so unfair!
FIFY

michael_g927
February 27, 2017, 10:48
Are you serious? At first i thought you were following me. But then i looked back thru this thread and saw quite a number of posts. Just like my original post, this trend is confirmed what i said. "How do you get pallets of ammo shot and thousands of guns built when the evedence shows clearly that you spend quite a bit of time on this forum (who knows about the rest of the interweb universe) defending your throne?
Have you answered my questions? I havnt checked as i have more important things things to do than that.

michael_g927
February 27, 2017, 11:04
I jusr read your "quote" . That is pretty cool how youvcreated a quote that i never said! I suppose you learn neat tricks like that when you are not building guns for contracts or anyone else! Your internet skills are very good sir!! I also suspect there is help from the administrators as well. If that is so, it will only hurt the credibility of the forum.
You are really going out of your way here! I am flattered!!!
So you classify my observations and statements as driveby because you didnt give your stamp of approval?
Sadly you dont realize that after "25 years" in the biz, you are still a one man show in your shed when DSA has grown into a multimillion dollar company selling weapons to foreign militaries and laying out quite a SHOT show spread in 17 years. Yet you have the balls to bash them?
You need to getvyour chromosome number checked. Something is wrong there.
Bottom line, answer the questions i asked you or just STFU.
Still impressed with the quote trick by the way!

gunplumber
February 27, 2017, 11:44
blah blah blah

Still waiting for the pic (with today's newspaper for proof of life) of your six Lamborghini. Funny how you have yet to produce it.

<div style="position:relative;height:0;padding-bottom:56.21%"><iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/viYuzuJom1k?ecver=2" style="position:absolute;width:100%;height:100%;left:0" width="641" height="360" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

michael_g927
February 27, 2017, 13:18
Your diversion tactics are weak. Its you that have made statements of grandure and superiority. Not i. So just answer the questions.
I also saw you say that you give "Training" to others. So that opens up a whole new line of vetting questions.
1 Where did you get your training?
2. What branch did you serve in?
3. What agency did you work for?
4 What instructor cert do you hold and what higher power recognized you for such?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Another observation. Why is it every goober at the LGS thinks they somehow are qualified to "teach" tactics and gunfighting?
So now you have TWO sets of questions we are all dieing to see you answer!

Jaxxas
February 27, 2017, 13:46
:popcorn::popcorn:

gunplumber
February 27, 2017, 13:49
blah blah

Still waiting for the pic (with today's newspaper for proof of life) of your six Lamborghinis.

RG Coburn
February 27, 2017, 15:56
The best AK is the one I own. Seriously,the best one every made. No one has a better one. But I'm not going to tell what kind it is.

Brian in MN
February 28, 2017, 10:47
Mine's better. :tongue:

michael_g927
March 01, 2017, 14:32
Its clear why you have to turn down work. This thread alone has taken up quite a bit of your time.
Also, when did i get Lambos? And now i have six of them! You would make an awesome Saturdaynight wingman!!!
I myself always refrained from using the "Build" or "Manufacturer" terms when talking about any of my guns.
A manufacturer actually takes raw stock and converts it into finished product. Kinda like DSA or PTR. That takes quite a bit of capitol in the terms of realestate, personell, machinery etc..
When i do a gun its just some minor fitting of new parts. I dont try to pass myself off as anything more than that. This is why i dont bash REAL companies.
Looks like you had a 7 year head start on DSA. What happened? Same with PTR.
I think you have some solid skills to market to either of these companies. So why all the hateful talk? You could actually add something tangeble to your resume.
Instead you will stay right here and play 5th grade games on the internet. So sad.

gunplumber
March 01, 2017, 16:02
please, sir, cudgel me again . . .

sure!

(twump!)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/da/27/81/da278174d6270daf00f88b53040d963b.jpg

hkshooter
March 01, 2017, 19:09
sure!

(twump!)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/da/27/81/da278174d6270daf00f88b53040d963b.jpg

:rofl:

GunDog2006
March 03, 2017, 15:03
Only in America, I guess...

... I'm just wondering who is making all the AKs I see on the news reels (Somalia, Ukriane, Syria, Egypt, etc, etc), shooting into the air and otherwise being used to kill probably hundreds of innocents. I don't think they were built with anal retentiveness in mind, nobody gave a damn about "build quality"... it seems they were built with "its practical and supposed to be cheap" in mind... Plus their mass production would most likely put Henry Ford's Model T to shame... they most likely slam these things together so fast the speed is blinding... They probably make duds, too.. and they make good ones, maybe even an occasional great one... I guess the difference is that they make them to use them, not to throw in a gun safe and brag about them because they are pretty.

We only do that in America ...

I guess an AK (for me) isn't supposed to be "pretty"... there are lots of other brands and types of weapons that could be used for art work to hang on the wall. My idea with this type of gun is to use it to defend my family and my life to the death if necessary, blasting a hole in any bad guy that thinks his idea to come and rob, rape and murder my children and wife is a good idea at the time... But to each their own, as long as there are folks who only want a safe queen, there will be folks making safe queens.

Of course those seen in actually oddball use on the news reels are perhaps made for military use, maybe they have some kind of "better" build if built for the nation's military... maybe they are made in a state-run gun factory... something like the previously state run IMI (Israeli Military Industries) which is now the privatized IWI (Israeli Weapons Industries) making Galils, Uzis, and now Tavors, etc... if I had any gun on earth to buy, it would be one made by the Israelis... they seem to be forced to defend themselves 24/7/365 and I'm pretty confident anything they build is going to kill, defend, and do what it is supposed to...

And in some of these third world shit-holes you see in the news they don't have liberal nutcases running around trying to axe gun rights in their country, mostly because they have no gun rights over there...

I guess I was spoiled in that it used to be, the AK was a cheap rifle that you could buy cheap ammo for, and that was before bans and an over-run of anti gun goop in the political realm. Seems like... enter any politician into anything we enjoy doing, and it f's it up.

My big problem with Century, I.O. and such builders is that they are like the McDonalds of gun makers. Yes, it will fill your belly and make a turd, but it has no nutritional value (i.e. in the food world, "food quality"). People know they call it "junk food" but they keep coming back... people know that kind of goopy food is bad for your heart and your belt line, but they keep hitting the drive-thru. You might buy an I.O. or a Century (and others) and it could end up being a non-firing turd. What-the-heck is up with that...? I can only imagine if you were the manager over a gun factory for AK's in some third world shit-hole, and you made guns that didn't work, you would be at the barrel end of the firing squad in no time.

Yet what amazes me is... these companies who make crap guns haven't been bankrupted out of business... amazing... I guess when most hamburgers from McDonalds start killing people by accident, maybe (at least some) people will eat somewhere else.

Supply and demand... as long as there is a demand for cheap crap, there will be folks selling cheap crap. It doesn't even seem to matter that some of these el-cheap-o "guns" (I use that term loosely) are dangerous to shoot. So what if a McDonalds hamburger gives you the shits for days, it filled your belly for five bucks... weeee. LOL.

Only in America... haha.

Posted mostly for a satirical look/view poking honest fun at folks (like regular Joe Consumers such as myself) who buy cheap made stuff (including eating at McDonalds when I know better...), even when reading here and there and everywhere else the guns by certain brand names are known to be junk.

As long as there are folks who'll buy them, these icky makers will exist.

And I think I could say with some assurance, the days of the truly cheap AK (as in $200 brand new for the rifle and the dealer was still making money on the deal...) are well since over, maybe by several decades of being gone and over with.

Now it seems you gotta cough out like $1,000-$2,000 for any kind of a battle gun, or take the chance its gonna be crap.

I think we can blame our voted-in politicians for the hike in prices and all the panic. We can also use our same voting rights, and if they start talking the anti-gun crap, we vote them out. Bye bye. Best scene I've seen in 8 years was the news video of Obama and the Mrs walking up the steps on the Marine Corps 1 helicopter as they LEFT the White House on Trump's inauguration day.

I have the idea that if Hillary would have won, AKs would now be over $3,000 or some kind of crap like that... but instead, I am seeing gun prices drop somewhat... which means its a real good time and get out there and BUY something. (and not just chit-chat about it on a gun forum).

The reason I say that is... I have one friend who has a whole gun safe full of stuff, and he's told me for like TEN YEARS "I need to buy an AK"... YET he still hasn't bought one. He just talks about it... weee... Now the prices are way higher than when he first started telling me he wanted to buy an AK, and I have this feeling they aren't going back down to $200 a rifle any day soon..... plus, now-days we have a bunch more crappy ones to choose from than before. At least years ago when they were cheap, we could shoot them with some confidence and not worry that they were going to blow up in our faces or tumble bullets down range because of wrongly installed wrong caliber barrels (etc, etc, etc), making the bullets flop against the target sideways...