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davedude
December 31, 2016, 12:15
Bought a super duper CHF mid gas pencil barrel from BCM several years ago. Performance was dismal with any ammo, shotgun spread groups with everything. Disgusted, I took it off and put it aside. Never contacted BCM, felt betrayed by them sending me a barrel that is flawed.
Fast forward to today, am messing around with the AR's. Wanna use up stuff laying around to build with and here is that BCM barrel staring me in the face. So I am wondering WTF is wrong with this thing and I had better get a 5.56 go-no-go gauge set to check headspace and then I think hey---maybe I should check the crown. Pulled of the birdcage FH and OMFG! This crown is beat to sh*t. I never looked at it close. I certainly did not beat up the crown like that, it HAD to have come from BCM in that condition.

Have a look see.

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/31165708584/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20161231_104334634"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/593/31165708584_c350c2fba2_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20161231_104334634"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I am thinking this is the reason for the crappy groups. It certainly is not good, looks hammered and has metal burrs sticking up. So now how do I fix this? Can I do this without machine shop equipment? A barrel crown tool I can buy maybe?


davedude

hueyville
December 31, 2016, 14:19
Looks to me like it missed final crown step in manufacturing process and was missed by quality control. While it's off and naked take to local smith for crown job. Can't hurt it and won't be an expensive experiment. If wasn't dead flat and have what looks like a partial lip at rifling would give it a go with my hand lapping kit. Touched up many a ding by hand.

def90
December 31, 2016, 15:30
Looks like carbon buildup on the end to me.. The carbon filled the gap between the end of the barrel and the flash hider. I know because you would be amazed at what the end of an AK74 looks like after a few trips to the range..

Scrub the thing down really good with a brass brush and repost pictures of the bare metal.

Carbon on a 74 barrel:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2LwKeC_pYQm5owf1WfY1j-2-H2k5eTQPL259j6faYSG0gywTzWGRREx80LjhcG8JUfP7KDQOuB qZY1fNNJrfW_hMcE83CirOjQNuuOdKiSfGZD77xcgwvzb2EvAE B1OjOJVk08v5dxyrrI67OV12QCgUrwup81IqN7nhMYdHdI_o8-fyWavcoCmDnTW-AuvrVRsR2-AMwoHGAsly0mqFSH14nocbfcazxvZpspfsjhs9Jt7uf-fSK499ImrXckHh4gaNy798Z3MUphcEuvefZJPoHy24aZzsTIgy cHRaJuwLlmts1Wmy0Iwm1W98ImQ5fgDq7blUc9c3LslM8lQUtF UjK8hh5JFwjXRD64UIMwXohY6zko_oxH86CPM8zFukDDfGOwa9-SkYLVqxR1oCsx8RAZgbAwN9xE4Wauf6yxOMqQ5mfjt-MQvsSNEEv7S6hastWn603jhtRSFYpKdVJhNpY9XsQ8iQ4JcaXz fUZYqFoCKwL8zmQAxHRwxCwtVKdzc81nxn1V7wYLuGuFxlE6eD m1qnZRiac5cwgvtpwjnNk7SPg028nx7PfvBo0Fflt26RvoDOWI JhI7Sr30CFLLWrFAZ_hW9uiJ6H8ALJ6jgpoAFq5oMk=w343-h609-no

After cleaning:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xO4kAfXClr6eAVlv-zLDUdDDzuqPvIMO2zDi6fM0MYNeBCDcsXRM8CUtgdWYenvrNdJ C5s8nxK9eywgLcuyuzKmFIBB87QIjjEu9sDyFGFSwE3J1d-RU_L2Zi-femK7FS6KxX5e7eMNA1oPcBbfGKbgtjHsz9N6k2DdoGu22rtTL tN_Bvg1h6-tOE-2b5t_e0b1qwVTv0BDIN8WdeNIdI_8bfa2VaiPXuimwX3HfQ2PS kxn_b7n7dcJZ2y_oJZE2c_CRf0I_pmgWOvS8v67QdY6rA_uiIH _DGJ8Z1m7GybnRV5lGFhb_tAQ4FGO4NSJ796TsM0yN8GzXG1Pw pveJQMEKKYyhZMGvTFz-nOCxz_ViLytK5xti_QP5sKz11bNTVT5F4S9gBDiiFpqVozQ3DZ yTi42p3gjj7kyS-hRj2PtCFyjzZwaKQxbm1e49c8eW6JxrOFVm75fAw-RwIFVJH9MsP0NZQGIwd3U8xPIp-lqqOkfsbh08nS-oDpfGWrXsnP9FitxVfM2l9ZwMve8dDQeE3Ddqo7g6R28Ypdi-UuVJbtb49r9qHRQdfC72SWAxf3TeQJysChzArM2ftrm7SdPrdi u7-j6vRGHTMOj5dl9QKE2abr8u=w343-h609-no

ftierson
December 31, 2016, 15:42
Looks like carbon buildup on the end to me.. The carbon filled the gap between the end of the barrel and the flash hider. I know because you would be amazed at what the end of an AK74 looks like after a few trips to the range..

Scrub the thing down really good with a brass brush and repost pictures of the bare metal.


Yup...

Clean that muzzle end... :)

Forrest

lysanderxiii
December 31, 2016, 16:03
Try cleaning it before assessing the condition of the crown.....

STG_58_guy
December 31, 2016, 18:38
I had a local outfit recrown an Imbel FAL barrel. Took two weeks and cost $95. That rifle shoots a solid 3 MOA. Money well spent, IMHO.

Clean it up first though so you can see what you really have.

Good luck.

davedude
December 31, 2016, 20:44
Ok, I cleaned the muzzle and it looks way different. Still some bits of flash or burr mostly around the outside edge. So does it look correct? If so, what else could be responsible for the very poor accuracy? This was a $300 barrel, CHF 1 in 7 twist. Everything from 77g match ammo, 69 grain, 62 grain and 55g all groups like a shotgun blast. There is a difference though the groups get tighter with the heavier weight bullets. None of my other mid gas 16" barrels have this problem, a Del ton and a RR.

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/31866820822/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20161231_192335688"><img src="https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/257/31866820822_723aff16e7_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20161231_192335688"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

davedude

tdb59
December 31, 2016, 20:50
Shoot a group without a muzzle device.






.................

davedude
December 31, 2016, 20:57
Shoot a group without a muzzle device.






.................

I was thinking the same thing!

Would be great to get this thing fixed. I love the pencil barrel weight, seems to make for faster and easier handling.

davedude

def90
December 31, 2016, 21:32
Looks like a good crown.. for what it's worth I have one of the BCM pencil barrels as well and I get about 4 MOA out of it at 100 yds.. I've never been able to determine if it's acceptable results for this barrel, the barrel itself or if I'm just not used to or good at shooting my AR..

I have mine set up with a freefloat handguard.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/IwwGp9eQJiNwCCAYWaAg2GSl3vNDwGp1wqR4eHcVA4xxZUnAol mPt8iv7t4Hp2BHLrJbecbN2ro0acL8x9gYZr6azAP42ObkF7Xr _rzXamK2tk412c3RuAaYriTrNY0u5n3RnAnpFc5Zdf-EgPx8E0c_V9mHdxfNWNcoyPb1s53MlzyMCgZelUROVGbcaU_ZP QcKLhILosszLCHBaw7oYjRMI5hKs0BIYSRdLWp0MaMDU3ut7UL I5NbmXa3TYTH7XTIeYxk-NrBJVGLWFje5uAJzv_DSOkwv06Kcz1LsOFpI9uwN_ojEDyTCpc t--OQq5sGqxAzvLtXKpZmCOWX5UHC1wL_4bsvujOxD_5l9EoGsOo3 280FRzupWFjinSeUW5I0uu2S72uZqvOMOTwXP2V1-wfQPTtkfaRoNUpa7yv1XPzMV_orWJoC5g_CE50Q0qy0XSWXL0l EXB39SA_EZUxER-2vLes-9DB7W3TCXs6z4gzD_rg1cIeNGeqh5qBNS2IStMygZvwtrYZUps xGWHvP3PIbf3NvU-uo2m0-DfXuX5qdhiqNO11VVQFpRcW9pL2OU2Og5jVT6b6h01WSXtgEBR 0QpCOCQY3ATo671NkkN1dK-H8m_=w816-h304-no

badzero
December 31, 2016, 21:59
I was in the local shop the other day shooting the shit with the owner about cans. He had a rod that was turned down to fit in the barrel and check the alignment of an installed can. As he was showing it off on a brand new ar he found that the flash hider was just off center, enough that the rod would not drop into place without some effort. Might be that you have an offset flasher as was said above, new parts aren't always good parts.

ftierson
December 31, 2016, 22:53
The crown looks just fine, but the land on the bottom doesn't look the greatest. Are the lands all rippled like that at the muzzle, or is what appears to be rippling just a function of the light in the photo?

Forrest

davedude
December 31, 2016, 23:47
I cant remember if i have used that FH on any other barrel but I think not. I will try it without. Just a regular birdcage with no slots on the bottom. No visible damage to it that I can see.
Just finished the basic assembly on a new Anderson lower and other new parts, good enough for testing.

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/31177160174/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20161231_221517870"><img src="https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/290/31177160174_c5e7a471e2_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20161231_221517870"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That would be great if it was the FH and NOT the barrel.
Thanks everyone and Happy New Year!

davedude

davedude
December 31, 2016, 23:53
The crown looks just fine, but the land on the bottom doesn't look the greatest. Are the lands all rippled like that at the muzzle, or is what appears to be rippling just a function of the light in the photo?

Forrest

I noticed that too, would expect better finish there. Will have a look see closer and check that. Good eye.

davedude

gunseller
January 01, 2017, 10:38
Other question are, what twist in barrel, what brand ammo and what bullet weight? Some barrels just do not like some brands amm or some bullets weights. Are you getting round groups or is your group in a line?
Steve

ByronF
January 01, 2017, 12:07
Is extension loose fit in upper before tightening up the nut?

richbug
January 01, 2017, 12:16
The crown looks just fine, but the land on the bottom doesn't look the greatest. Are the lands all rippled like that at the muzzle, or is what appears to be rippling just a function of the light in the photo?

Forrest


I have bought new saw blades that were smoother than that land. Then they plated right over it. All kinds of fail and missed inspections there.

ByronF
January 01, 2017, 12:18
Wow. Hadnt zoomed in until now. I have a Davis derringer with a bore about that nice.

def90
January 01, 2017, 13:35
Not sure how you can tell how smooth the land might be simply from a cell phone pic.. I can show you plenty of pics that make a barrel look like shit yet in person it's perfect.

richbug
January 01, 2017, 19:25
Not sure how you can tell how smooth the land might be simply from a cell phone pic.. I can show you plenty of pics that make a barrel look like shit yet in person it's perfect.


Anyone who has machined big pieces of steel into little ones for any amount of time can spot tool chatter a mile away.


The light is reflecting at 2 different angles.

ByronF
January 01, 2017, 19:37
Agree with Rich. The pattern appears regular, as if the carbide insert of the gun drill chipped. The lands look fine. So the barrel was jacked before the rifling was ever cut. Thats how I see it. Or we're wrong and the barrel shoots just fine and it's a shooter problem. But I think poster's experience is to the contrary.

That barrel appears to have been a turd from the moment the bore was pierced. All work performed to it after that moment was a wasted effort.

davedude
January 01, 2017, 20:31
The crown looks just fine, but the land on the bottom doesn't look the greatest. Are the lands all rippled like that at the muzzle, or is what appears to be rippling just a function of the light in the photo?

Forrest

I had a look and all the lands are rippled like that as far as I have been able to see, which is not far. Like tool chatter yes? I've never seen that before in a barrel and does not do much to warm my heart.

Davedude

tdb59
January 01, 2017, 20:33
Put rounds on paper.

Until you have documented results, appearance matters not.





.....................

davedude
January 01, 2017, 20:41
Other question are, what twist in barrel, what brand ammo and what bullet weight? Some barrels just do not like some brands amm or some bullets weights. Are you getting round groups or is your group in a line?
Steve

Round groups with a variety of bullet weights from 55g up to 77g. Known good ammo from a variety of manufacturers and even my own handloads, all of which shoot great in my other Ar's.

While I have admittedly some of the worst trigger discipline possible that does not account for the spray-groups obtained with this barrel. It is that bad.

oh yeah, it's a 1 in 7 twist.

davedude

ByronF
January 01, 2017, 20:41
Initial post already stated Mini-14 type accuracy with this barrel. It shoots like shit, looks like shit... It's shit. We can speculate that the photo is some form of atmospheric anomaly but it shoots like shit and looks like shit. Sometimes the most likely culprit is the guilty party. Forrest saw it. I think he ID the guilty perp.

davedude
January 01, 2017, 20:47
Is extension loose fit in upper before tightening up the nut?

I will shoot for groups without the flashider first, if suckage is encountered again I will have a look, because that barrel will be coming off and something else will be going on.Thanks.

And thanks all for your comments, very much appreciated!

davedude

Sagerider
January 01, 2017, 22:29
It maybe just the photo but the crown does not look even, more chamfer on one side than the other? Yes/no?

ftierson
January 02, 2017, 13:03
Put rounds on paper.

Until you have documented results, appearance matters not.

....................

While somewhat true, I would be very unhappy with a bore looking like the one I see here.

Oh, wait, it isn't shooting well... :)

Forrest

Steel Shrapnel
January 14, 2017, 11:03
Itís not the BCM Barrel or FlashiderÖ!

Crush Washers suck for proper muzzle attachment alignmentÖ! Use multi-gauged Shims or at minimum a MilSpec Peel Washers to time the flashider. Crush Washers lean off angle as they collapse under pressure because one handed adjustable wrenches designed for automotive mechanics.

For Crush Washers to flex evenly 360 degrees double handle T bar is used. Shims and Peel Washers donít require even pressure applied two points 90 degrees from each other in comparison.

Funny how cheap crush washers can turn match grade barrels and expensive race-ready compensators into junk. Donít assume BCM barrel has issues before you reinstall flashider with Shims or Peel Washers.

Also I noticed the extra carbon build-up from shooting cheap Ball-Powder ammo. 556/223 caliber ARs DI function, reliability, and overall accuracy are based on Stick-Powder ammo only. You can shoot Ball-Powder 223/556 but donít expect less than 3.5 MOA and long term reliable function is limited.

ftierson
January 14, 2017, 19:24
Itís not the BCM Barrel or FlashiderÖ!

Crush Washers suck for proper muzzle attachment alignmentÖ! Use multi-gauged Shims or at minimum a MilSpec Peel Washers to time the flashider. Crush Washers lean off angle as they collapse under pressure because one handed adjustable wrenches designed for automotive mechanics.

For Crush Washers to flex evenly 360 degrees double handle T bar is used. Shims and Peel Washers donít require even pressure applied two points 90 degrees from each other in comparison.

Funny how cheap crush washers can turn match grade barrels and expensive race-ready compensators into junk. Donít assume BCM barrel has issues before you reinstall flashider with Shims or Peel Washers.

Also I noticed the extra carbon build-up from shooting cheap Ball-Powder ammo. 556/223 caliber ARs DI function, reliability, and overall accuracy are based on Stick-Powder ammo only. You can shoot Ball-Powder 223/556 but donít expect less than 3.5 MOA and long term reliable function is limited.

No matter how good your muzzle device, it won't fix a crap barrel.

Did you look at the photos?

Forrest

richbug
January 14, 2017, 19:32
Also I noticed the extra carbon build-up from shooting cheap Ball-Powder ammo. 556/223 caliber ARs DI function, reliability, and overall accuracy are based on Stick-Powder ammo only. You can shoot Ball-Powder 223/556 but donít expect less than 3.5 MOA and long term reliable function is limited.


You had better let all the guys at Camp Perry know that AA2520 is garbage...

ftierson
January 14, 2017, 21:28
You had better let all the guys at Camp Perry know that AA2520 is garbage...

:)

Forrest

ALL FAL
January 14, 2017, 23:10
Get ahold of BCM and show them Pics and the chatter marks in the muzzle lands, swapping FH may help but I would bet $50 Dollero's it is THE BARREL.

Will watch this thread and am Hopeful the BCM folks will do you right, because that Barrel is Way Wrong and should NEVER have left the factory except in the scrap pile.

Let BCM KNOW their reputation and customer service IS at stake.

Dave, I would crown that Barrel for nothing but it is Not worth even that.

davedude
January 15, 2017, 12:20
Thanks for all the comments! I did contact BCM about it, they replied right away and I answered all of their many questions. Noticeably BCM did not answer my questions about the tool marks in the barrel. They want to see my results once I check barrel nut torque and shoot without the flash hider. Well ok, that's what we will do. I have no idea what their policy is regarding something like this and given the amount of time since I bought it I expect to have to eat this if further testing remains unsatisfactory. BCM may wish to inspect it possibly before making any determination. I wouldn't blame them and that would be fine if they would like.
I am waiting on some decent scope mounts for a new Nikon P223 1.5x4.5 scope I want to try on it. I have some cheesy mounts on it now, would rather just wait for the better ones and then test. I went with the Nikon P series two piece mounts, offset like the Burris PEPR. Just pulled them out of the mailbox :) and will test this coming week after work. Will post the results for sure.

davedude

ByronF
January 15, 2017, 12:37
If they were going to tell you piss of in the end they would not have asked for additional testing. I suspect they'll do you right if its a manufacturing defect.

ftierson
January 15, 2017, 13:30
My experience with Bushmaster (old BM, not the Remington 'owned' one (for which I have no experience)) is somewhat limited. I ordered a complete lower (I can't remember the distributor off the top of my head) and it came with severe vertical machining marks on the left side of the lower (where the hammer and trigger pins come though). It had been anodized right over the crappy machining.

I called BM and talked to someone (if the name is important, left me know, but keep in mind it was the old BM) and he told me to send it back to them. I did send it back and, if I'm remembering right about the time frame, received a new complete lower directly from them within a week (they had obviously sent the replacement even before they received the crappy one, Colorado to Maine and back).

Although I was somewhat unhappy being a non-paid QC tester for them, I was very impressed by their customer service.

For what it's worth, since I haven't dealt with them since the change of ownership. But I do expect that they'll make it right...

Forrest

the gman
January 15, 2017, 19:43
My experience with Bushmaster (old BM, not the Remington 'owned' one (for which I have no experience)) is somewhat limited. I ordered a complete lower (I can't remember the distributor off the top of my head) and it came with severe vertical machining marks on the left side of the lower (where the hammer and trigger pins come though). It had been anodized right over the crappy machining.

I called BM and talked to someone (if the name is important, left me know, but keep in mind it was the old BM) and he told me to send it back to them. I did send it back and, if I'm remembering right about the time frame, received a new complete lower directly from them within a week (they had obviously sent the replacement even before they received the crappy one, Colorado to Maine and back).

Although I was somewhat unhappy being a non-paid QC tester for them, I was very impressed by their customer service.

For what it's worth, since I haven't dealt with them since the change of ownership. But I do expect that they'll make it right...

Forrest

Brain fart old buddy; this is BCM aka Bravo Company USA not Bushmaster. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/

I'm betting BCM will make it right. :wink:

ftierson
January 15, 2017, 20:41
Brain fart old buddy; this is BCM aka Bravo Company USA not Bushmaster. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/

I'm betting BCM will make it right. :wink:

No shit talking about brain farts... :)

Sorry about the confusion...

My bad...

And, as George says, I'm sure that BCM will make it right too... :)

Forrest

hueyville
January 16, 2017, 10:58
Been pulling muzzle devices off over a dozen rifles swapping to suppressor mounts and every muzzle and crown once cleaned looks pretty much same as when new and screwed original flash hider on. Like the idea of them (BCM) recommending putting a torque wrench on barrel nut. Seems like many people just snug things up and keep screwing rifle together. Torque wrench is my best friend when installing any fastener including muzzle devices. Consistent torque values within recommended specifications from build to build seems to lend itself to consistent accuracy even when using bargain parts. Lapping rings and all the tricks to quality builds are just as important with bargain parts as match grade.

jhend170
January 16, 2017, 15:04
Ok this might come off as a dumb question, but how would machining chatter marks occur in a CHF barrel? There's no machining associated with the rifling, is there? Chatter marks occur when a tool gets to dragging across the material that's being cut, and as the rifling wasn't cut, how might this happen? I guess if the mandrel was not removed in a straight line with the bore that could occur, but I just find it confusing, considering how they are made.

Question to OP though... was another barrel put in the place of this one? Did it shoot ok? I ask because I lap all of my uppers to prevent the interface between the upper and barrel extension flange from being an imperfect fit. Most don't need it, but guy at work here was getting 5-6 moa from a match barrel and it made no sense. I pulled it down, started lapping it for him, and the high points in the face of the upper were immediately obvious. Finished lapping it, put it back together, he's immediately shooting 3/4" groups. Again, doesn't happen often, but it happens. This is why your benchrest guys lap all of theirs before assembly as well.

davedude
January 16, 2017, 20:33
I chuck up my craftsman digitork wrench into an armorers tool and tork to as close to 80 ft pounds as possible. Is this a valid check for barrel nut tork?

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/32236328201/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20170115_155848887"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/572/32236328201_79618e0874_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20170115_155848887"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Checked the BCM barrel in question yesterday evening, she broke right at 80 ft pounds and did not budge. Tight man. I am not sure where I got the 80 ft pounds figure from, would this be ok? That's what I been doing.

I thought this upper was a Palmetto State Armory but now I think it might have been a Del-Ton. I am pretty sure I took a heavy barrel off this upper to put the BCM pencil on and there was no problem with it before. Should I pull this barrel off I will have a lookie see at the mating surfaces.

Markings on this barrel:

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/32356802905/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20170115_155804253"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/679/32356802905_f266cbe606_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20170115_155804253"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Next thing to try is the range trip without muzzle device. Will post results. Should be this week.


Davedude

ftierson
January 17, 2017, 01:41
The .mil specs for torquing the barrel nut are 30-50 ft/lbs, never to exceed 80 ft/lbs...

Just sayin'...

Forrest

TenTea
January 17, 2017, 09:10
The .mil specs for torquing the barrel nut are 30-50 ft/lbs, never to exceed 80 ft/lbs...

Just sayin'...

Forrest

Yes, 80 ft/lbs is rarely needed.

Any AR barreller needs one of these and one of those...
Seriously, these are fantastical combined with a heavy 6" bench vise.

https://www.magpul.com/products/firearms-accessories/tools/bev-block-ar15-m4

https://www.magpul.com/products/magpul-armorers-wrench-ar15-m4

Search the wide innerwebs for best price.

mikeuniform
January 17, 2017, 12:01
I chuck up my craftsman digitork wrench into an armorers tool and tork to as close to 80 ft pounds as possible. Is this a valid check for barrel nut tork?

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/32236328201/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20170115_155848887"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/572/32236328201_79618e0874_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20170115_155848887"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Checked the BCM barrel in question yesterday evening, she broke right at 80 ft pounds and did not budge. Tight man. I am not sure where I got the 80 ft pounds figure from, would this be ok? That's what I been doing.

I thought this upper was a Palmetto State Armory but now I think it might have been a Del-Ton. I am pretty sure I took a heavy barrel off this upper to put the BCM pencil on and there was no problem with it before. Should I pull this barrel off I will have a lookie see at the mating surfaces.



Next thing to try is the range trip without muzzle device. Will post results. Should be this week.


Davedude

Ummm, is that setup in the vise what you used to install the barrel in the first place?

hueyville
January 17, 2017, 13:19
Screw plastic clamp shells and magazine well holding fixtures except for light work. This is best way to hold barrel while tighten nut or muzzle devices.

https://geissele.com/reaction-rod.html

This is my favorite for installing standard barrel nuts. Snaps on torque wrench perfectly and not a bunch of handle, multifunction crap and has enough pins never bugger up any tips like seen done with cheap wrenches.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/123930/pri-barrel-nut-wrench-ar-15

My second favorite wrench adapter:

https://geissele.com/barrel-nut-wrench.html

Generally set my torque wrench, calibrated Snap On or equivalent, at 40 ft/lbs then turn the last little bit to allow gas tube to properly line up. Usually land in 45 to 60 ft/lb range. If hit 60 and not wanting to line up, remove and try another barrel nut. Have worked on uppers that could loosen nut by hand and others so tight that when wrench bumps high side of 80 ft/lbs tell owner has to remove himself as not going to be responsible if upper cracks, nut wrings off a few teeth or discover crossthreaded upper.

I am not a gunsmith nor do I work on guns. An upper removed from lower is not either. My rule is will help anyone if bring or mail upper only. Had guy come in with entire rifle said he didn't know how to remove. Told him to drive to LGS and have them teach him then bring upper only back in my building. Had guy knocking on door last year with a "solvent trap" in his hands. Keep doors locked most of time and can see who is knocking via video cameras. Unlocked door and asked to see his BATFE form. Replied it's not required as nothing but auto parts from NAPA. Doubt he will ever return after scolding gave him in parking lot as asked to leave premises.

Why do people think saving $200 and few months wait on stamp is worth 10 years in penitentiary and $10,000 fine? A few months waiting as wander freely and $200 up front instead of 10k on back side is worth the bother. Teaching me the fine line of the rules was GP's worthy series of spankings. Was in process of applying for the entire deal with BATFE to go into gunsmith business but decided not to and with the DDTC/ITAR ruling am glad stayed a hobbies only building personal rifles.

Even as a hobbiest, good tools are worth their weight in gold if doing more than a couple builds.

Invictus77
January 17, 2017, 13:59
I am not a gunsmith nor do I work on guns.

wut?

ByronF
January 17, 2017, 17:22
Because I owned a Wheeler barrel vice for FALs and Garands I've used just that, and an armorers wrench with torque wrench. It's more of a hassle because you cant fit up gas tube to the gas block but I feed gas tube through back of receiver past the notches in barrel nut until it clears and seems straight. Ive occasionally had to redo if tube is in a bind.

Not how I'd do it if I had to barrel regularly but worked fine for the few that Ive done.

hueyville
January 17, 2017, 21:37
wut?

From English Oxford Dictionary:

gunsmith; A person who makes, sells, and repairs small firearms.

Short answer from BATFE:

A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.

Not even going to get into the State Department DDTC/ITAR redefining the contemporary meaning of the word gunsmith.


From the NRA's website: (edited for brevity, look up the multi page form if not seen already)


The upshot is that DDTC is labeling commercial gunsmiths as “manufacturers” for performing relatively simple work such as threading a barrel or fabricating a small custom part for an older firearm. Under the AECA, “manufacturers” are required to register with DDTC at significant expense or risk onerous criminal penalties.

The AECA/ITAR require anybody who engages in the business of “manufacturing” a defense article to register with DDTC and pay a registration fee that for new applicants is currently $2,250 per year. These requirements apply, even if the business does not, and does not intend to, export any defense article. Moreover, under ITAR, “only one occasion of manufacturing … a defense article” is necessary for a commercial entity to be considered “engaged in the business” and therefore subject to the regime’s requirements.

DDTC’s new “guidance”*only makes this situation worse by coming up with a confusing and counterintuitive list of activities that it considers “gunsmithing” versus “manufacturing” (despite the fact that it insists it relies on the “ordinary, contemporary, common meaning” of those terms).

For example, DDTC generally labels procedures that involve cutting, drilling, or machining of an existing firearm in order to improve its accuracy or operation or to change its caliber as “manufacturing,” even if they do not create a new and distinct firearm. This includes threading a muzzle for a muzzle brake or blueprinting that requires machining of a barrel.

Finishing treatments for firearms generally are not considered manufacturing under the guidance, nor are cosmetic flourishes such as engraving. Meanwhile the mounting of a scope that involves the machining of new dovetails or the drilling and tapping of holes may or not be “manufacturing,” depending on whether the scope improves the accuracy of the firearm beyond its prior configuration.

DDTC’s move appears aimed at expanding the regulatory sweep of the AECA/ITAR and culling many smaller commercial gunsmithing operations that do not have the means to pay the annual registration fee or the sophistication to negotiate DDTC’s confusing maze of bureaucracy.


If look at date this was released by the State Department and when Hillary resigned that post she could claim was not done on her watch but amount of time it takes dot gov to move, it had to be on the table and mostly done while she was still running that show. Knowing the Clinton's propensity to redefine the meaning of words to meet an objective it has her scent all over it. When Bill told Congress he didn't have sex in the Oval Office with Monica and the dress with genetic evidence showed up he managed to weasel a new definition to the word sex in a manner that it excludes oral activity. Magically he didn't commit purgery.

So reading as much as is commonly available and professional evaluation of all this from people smarter than me have figured out if screw together an AR from readily available parts have not violated the law or regulation. If were to buy an 80% lower and finish machine it after June 22nd, 2016 have become a manufacturer under ITAR regulations. Glad I purchased 60 of the blem billet lowers when Mag Tactical was filing for bankruptcy, should keep me screwing together Leggo's for some time. Knew there was something I didn't like about 80% lowers a long time ago. Sold my lathe so not even tempted to thread a barrel, send it to someone properly licensed.

While get conflicting opinions on refinishing have put all my Cerakote in the back of the paint locker, SATA Jet with correct orifice in the back of spray equipment cabinet have a letter from the Gunskins company where BATFE ruled their product is not refinishing so "wrapping" my guns till that issue is resolved to suit me. From people have talked with that had to go with the DDTC/ITAR regulations the paperwork and time to do it is worse than the fees.

Have read the rules, read the commentary and interpretations from experts and doing everything possible to amend my practices to not fall into anything that falls into the new dot gov definitions of what gunsmithing and manufacturing encompass while still completing a new Leggo toy as the mood strikes. Even looked at my reloading equipment and methods to ensure none of my equipment runs in a mode than can be called automated.

d) The systemized production of ammunition, including the automated loading or reloading of ammunition;

On my progressive presses pulling the handle is mandatory but unsure if all other processes are done if it could be called automated or not. Back during Sandy Hook panic when it was a months long wait for Dillon presses had a N.I.B. RL650b. Sold it before taking out of box for a hefty price. Now unsure how automated want my presses to be. Past week have loaded 2,000 rounds of 45 acp on a 550b without case feeder. Even cast, sized and lubed all the bullets. Since this is in executive order realm am waiting a bit before buy next press. Have three 550b's and four Square Deal B's as hate caliber changes. The three 550's do 45 acp, 5.56 NATO and 7.62x51 NATO. Load 38 special, 9mm, 40 Smith and 44 special on Square Deals. All my magnum loads are done on turret or single stage presses.

So no, am not a gunsmith to the best can tell from the modern, contemporary meaning of the word. Anyone that builds and posts should be aware and make effort to not be some BATFE agent on a mission test case. The way am doing works well enough and once the new regime starts passing legislation and signing orders may just get that Dillin 1050 or two 650's been wanting and park a 36" new lathe where the big 60" tool room lathe used to be.

davedude
January 17, 2017, 22:27
Ummm, is that setup in the vise what you used to install the barrel in the first place?

No. I have a set of Brownells AR tools, and I use the clamshell upper receiver block for barrel work.
So looks like I have the nut a little on the tight side. :D

Spent time at the range after work today. Took all three carbines. Results are promising but still inconclusive. Need to go back now that scopes are aligned and really test. Of course I have the crappiest trigger on the BCM barrel carbine makin things tougher.

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/32257899521/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20170117_195322892"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/342/32257899521_1a7a1ee970_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20170117_195322892"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/32338852186/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20170117_195300204"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/652/32338852186_7d494557a1_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20170117_195300204"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I got the Nikon 1.5x4.5 on the BCM barrel, the Elcan on the Del-Ton Barrel and the Aimpoint on the Rock River barrel.

Things started out kinda crummy but tightened up quite a bit toward the end of the session. Have to go back to work on it, will try to put something together that is coherent and valid.

Davedude

Tuscan Raider
January 18, 2017, 04:50
Mind if I ask what your heavy bullet load data is?

davedude
January 18, 2017, 06:50
Mind if I ask what your heavy bullet load data is?

Not at all. This is what I have currently:

http://www.hornady.com/store/223-REM-75-GR-BTHP-STEEL-MATCH/

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/32006291820/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20170116_202224035"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/774/32006291820_775f04706c_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20170116_202224035"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Best results last night sighting in the scopes were obtained with this stuff. Now I have to go back to continue testing in order to obtain meaningful results that don't embarrass me too much.
I am getting a beautiful flash viewed thru the Nikon with no muzzle device on the BCM barrel. :)
davedude

davedude
January 22, 2017, 06:53
Caught a cold, been sick and home resting. Should be able to continue test this coming week.

davedude

davedude
January 25, 2017, 21:28
Well guys I did my testing last night. Took my three 16' carbines, shot three different types of ammo out of each, used the same mag for all. 20 round groups and got similar groups from all.
The BCM barrel is a lightweight mid-gas 1/7 twist. Muzzle device removed.
The Delton barrel is a heavy mid-gas 1/9 twist.
The RRA barrel is a lightweight Mid-gas 1/9 twist.
Looks like the problem with the BCM barrel, despite the toolmarks in the bore, was probably the muzzle device.
I'll let the pictures do the talkin.

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/31683796164/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20170124_183844878"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/369/31683796164_675aee62ba_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20170124_183844878"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/32148589140/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20170125_191545746"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/485/32148589140_61c5e8991c_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20170125_191545746"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/31683802204/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20170125_191708308"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/715/31683802204_38a6d2ed74_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20170125_191708308"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/31683804414/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20170125_191827256"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/699/31683804414_4d620eea96_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20170125_191827256"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/31683808754/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20170125_192304796"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/761/31683808754_b436fd2dea_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20170125_192304796"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/77935473@N03/31683811574/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_20170125_192906618"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/264/31683811574_0415b26d0c_k.jpg" width="1152" height="2048" alt="IMG_20170125_192906618"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I might try to put that birdcage flashider back on the BCM barrel to see if the groups turn to sh*t again.
If you see something wrong let me know. I appreciate all the comments. Yes I know my groups suck . :rolleyes: :biggrin:

davedude