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View Full Version : WTK 458 SOCOM-quality/trade value


Eyeguy
December 30, 2016, 17:12
Have a firearm listed for sale on a local forum and had this trade offer show up this morning. Here's the description of trade being offered:

Complete .458 SOCOM. Wilson combat upper. Handguard changed to a YHM and charging handle to an umbrella corp raptor. The lower is an aero precision with velocity 3# trigger, Umbrella Corp lpk, Seekins ambi selector, Magpul ACS stock and larue grip. Magpul mbus sights.

http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b435/MHagin57/FalFiles/SOCOM_zpsh1kz8cnj.jpg (http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/MHagin57/media/FalFiles/SOCOM_zpsh1kz8cnj.jpg.html)

All I know about the round/rifle is what I've been able to read online this afternoon. I do realize ammo is expensive ($3.00+ a round for factory) and have read that the .458 is hard on the lower if not purpose built for the round.

Appreciate any feedback from the knowledgeable here on the build and possible trade value.

Thanks in advance.

meltblown
December 30, 2016, 17:25
Have you priced the parts individually? $3.00 to make it go bang. Deduct 1000;). Unless you're wanting to bring down bigger game. Like a 59 Buick

fmj_shooter
December 30, 2016, 17:51
You're not gonna shoot it enough to hurt the lower.
I would not trade into one unless it came with ammo and/or dies and components.

Eyeguy
December 30, 2016, 18:02
Thanks fmj shooter. Does come with ammo but seller hasn't yet disclosed how many rounds. Still need to nail that down.

Thanks too to Meltblown for getting me thinking in the right direction. Here's MSRP for the parts I could find online today.

Wilson Combat barreled receiver: $1140 (clearance price from Midway)
YHM Slant Forearm: $252
Umbrella LPK range depending on part kit: $30-$150
Umbrella raptor charging handle: $99
Aero Precision striped lower: $165
Velocity trigger: $150
Seekins ambi safety: $35
ACS stock: $90
Larue AR grip: $28
Magpul MBUS sights: $80

Total (assuming striped lower and complete LPK less trigger: $2189

L Haney
December 30, 2016, 18:09
...and have read that the .458 is hard on the lower if not purpose built for the round.



I have to disagree with this. I've got slightly over 1100 rounds through mine and the lower, not to mention every other part of the rifel, shows no stress or wear. This with my go to load of a 325 grain FTX @1950 fps. The upper did come with two springs, a rifel and carbine. I installed the carbine spring.

I've not had a single malfunction that was not my fault, which makes it not a malf. DO NOT SINGLE FEED. Rounds MUST be fed into the chamber from the mag.

Can't speak to factory ammo costs, never bought any.

I really like this chambering. I think the example you posted is ugly. Too goddam much cheese grater. But I know that makes some guys dicks hard. Bear in mind, I'm not cool. Or tactical.

meltblown
December 30, 2016, 18:18
Hell I bought a Aero lower 75.00 a couple of years ago at the counter at PA

Haney what's the purpose of the caliber? Bears?

L Haney
December 30, 2016, 18:33
Haney what's the purpose of the caliber? Bears?

One hit anchors of humans (original design spec), door hinges (on the floor) and feral hogs (one hit, one kill). This thing is a hammer.

This is the AR version of a 45/70 plus a few percent. Standard 30 round mag with no mods holds ten shots. Throw weight with my loads is 5X per shot of 5.56.

meltblown
December 30, 2016, 18:37
One hit anchors of humans (original design spec), door hinges (on the floor) and feral hogs (one hit, one kill). This thing is a hammer.

Yeah. So is a shotgun slug

I see where you're going. Even if the target has body armor, it wouldn't be shrugged off. Right?

Eyeguy
December 30, 2016, 18:39
Hell I bought a Aero lower 75.00 a couple of years ago at the counter at PA

Haney what's the purpose of the caliber? Bears?

Those prices I listed were MSRP from the manufacturer's website so yes, expect they're higher than actual market pricing.

There's quite a bit of reading regarding the .458 on the web including a comment that the round had been used to take the top 5 big game animals in Africa. Ain't going there but think it would be a blast, literally, for hog hunting!

Eyeguy
December 30, 2016, 18:42
As quoted regarding the impetus for the development of the .458:

http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/wilson-combat-recon-tactical-custom-grade-458-socom-rifle-gun-test/#wilson-combat-recon-tactical-custom-grade-458-socom-rifle-1

“As related in… accounts of the operations in Somalia, the 5.56mm round was not particularly effective against Somalis who were amped up on qat. The discussions led to the development of a .458 cartridge that was given the SOCOM name…”

L Haney
December 30, 2016, 18:45
Even if the target has body armor, it wouldn't be shrugged off. Right?

If you even suspect the opponent has body armor, you shoot the head. You shoot it a lot. Don't play at this, the stakes are too high.

meltblown
December 30, 2016, 18:47
Those prices I listed were MSRP from the manufacturer's website so yes, expect they're higher than actual market pricing.

There's quite a bit of reading regarding the .458 on the web including a comment that the round had been used to take the top 5 big game animals in Africa. Ain't going there but think it would be a blast, literally, for hog hunting!

Then do it brother. Ain't nothing but money. :beer: never been hog hunting. Was just wondering if the deer in Georgia are getting bigger and meaner.

Not poo pooing anything. Wife and I are thinking about buyin a house, soooo I'm having to go on the wagon for awhile

spider991
December 30, 2016, 20:16
I guess it depends on how much your firearm is worth and if you're getting a good deal or not on this firearm. It's a pretty nice rifle with the Wilson upper abd aero lower. 458 Socom might be my next purchase, it seems like just a lot of fun. But I reload and that would make all the difference I imagine. If you think it's going to be fun, go for it what else is there.

L Haney
December 30, 2016, 20:35
As quoted regarding the impetus for the development of the .458:



From that link, this. "The Wilson 300-grain TTSX averaged 1,798 feet per second (fps) and produced a five-shot group that measured 3.01 inches. Wilson’s 300-grain JHP averaged 1,745 fps and produced a 2.21-inch group. The SBR TTSX load averaged 1,887 fps with a 2.39-inch group, while the Dangerous Game load averaged 1,661 fps and produced a 3.81-inch group. "


These guys suck. My AVERAGE groups off the bench at 100 yards are 1.25 inches with a 325 grain FTX Hornady at ~1950 fps. Ask around, I'n not that shit hot behind a rifel. My best for three shots was .625". But that was a good day and I was completely sober. Painful as that was.

badzero
December 30, 2016, 21:53
Damn it, you guys are making me want one of these again. I ordered a factory built one from Rock River a few years ago, and after 4 months on back order I talked myself out of it and cancelled the order.

Eyeguy
December 30, 2016, 22:03
Damn it, you guys are making me want one of these again. I ordered a factory built one from Rock River a few years ago, and after 4 months on back order I talked myself out of it and cancelled the order.

It's just another AR right? Riiiiiiiight!

http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b435/MHagin57/FalFiles/556%20vs%20458_zps6eoeswey.jpg (http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/MHagin57/media/FalFiles/556%20vs%20458_zps6eoeswey.jpg.html)

badzero
December 31, 2016, 00:18
man, stop it, The wife put me under an arms embargo until after taxes.

Eyeguy
December 31, 2016, 00:26
man, stop it, The wife put me under an arms embargo until after taxes.

I feel your pain brother. If mine knew the new safe she bought me last Christmas was already full the dogs would have my spot in the bed. :rofl:

SWOHFAL
December 31, 2016, 02:50
Wilson's chambers aren't cut to Teppo Jutsu's spec, while RRA's are.

Douglas S Graham
December 31, 2016, 06:21
You probably won't be into shooting 20 or more rounds in a session if I had to guess. :eek: Or maybe you ARE a recoil freak. Try it wearing just a T shirt.

davedude
December 31, 2016, 10:04
I have had wood for a .45 cal rifle hammer for over four hours now, should I call a doctor? :biggrin:

How coincidental, I have just recently been doing comparison between the .458 SOCOM, .450 Bushmaster and even the .50 Beowolf. And then here is this thread.

I think I would like any of them but ammo cost put a big damper on purchase plans. Perhaps the right trade deal would do it but it would have to be a really good trade in my favor. I would handload this one fur shure.

I have resigned myself to a lever action 45-70. Ammo is cheaper and more available and I can also run it in repro trapdoors and other cool stuff that I have interest in. Plus, since it was a black powder cartridge originally, I can play with the black, which I do like to do on occasion with another old .45 cartridge, the .45 long colt. Run out of smokeless? No problem, just run black.
But damn, an AR .45 cal is still woodie and drool inspiring! ;)

davedude

hueyville
December 31, 2016, 10:42
If you even suspect the opponent has body armor, you shoot the head. You shoot it a lot. Don't play at this, the stakes are too high.

Remember a hip shot does well as sometimes head is bobbing and few run groin protection then most of it doesn't cover the hip socket. Well placed round to hip will take all but the most determined adiversaries down till can get a clean kill shot or just let them bleed out. Femoral artery is right at hip and if busted will drain a man quickly. Won't digress into hip, thigh and femoral artery armor options just to confuse people expecting a monologue.

In my end of world kit is a pair of stainless 45/70 lever guns. An enterprising man could make his own blackpowder, reload or make primers (total pain in @$$) and keep a really capable cartridge going for generations after gun confiscation. Never built any AR 15 over 30 caliber and 6.8 is now my largest but can see uses for such a machine. Bet it would be very simple to load ammo if not buy off shelf that will burn 3a duty armor with 458. See list of over 30 off the shelf rounds in 9mm to 40 Smith that will smoke a NIJ 3a vest without special threat plates. If facing a team with level 3 to 4 multi hit then heads, hips and knees in that order. If someone with a 458 near north GA wants to visit, will set up a 3a vest and see what happens, bet it burns a hole with a Barnes copper solid or hard cast bullet.

Guy down near Stimpson many years ago whacked a cop during a routine DUI traffic stop. Drove home, got his turkey gun with tight choke and when local Swat showed up he knee capped everyone that approached house. Took down so many they had to call in a team from another county while doing best to recover wounded. When Gwinnett showed up they kept launching gas rounds through windows till house burned down. The Waco option generally works when have overwhelming numbers and victim trapped in structure.

badzero
December 31, 2016, 21:13
Ok, this thread has got me thinking I need to piece one together under the radar. I have a lower with an lmt sopmod stock on it. What barrel length and twist do I want? Bolt, buffer?

Thanks

Eyeguy
January 01, 2017, 13:14
Wilson's chambers aren't cut to Teppo Jutsu's spec, while RRA's are.

Thanks. So help me understand here; function, accuracy, feeding issues?

tdb59
January 01, 2017, 13:42
You probably won't be into shooting 20 or more rounds in a session if I had to guess. :eek: Or maybe you ARE a recoil freak. Try it wearing just a T shirt.




Probably less free recoil than a FAL.

No worse any way, and I have fired both a FAL and SOCOM within minutes of each other with Lowell's 325 grain loads.


......

L Haney
January 01, 2017, 13:50
Probably less free recoil than a FAL.

No worse any way, and I have fired both a FAL and SOCOM within minutes of each other with Lowell's 325 grain loads.


......

Terry, me and a couple of other guys did a 'subjective' recoil test. We agreed pretty closely that the SOCOM in my rifel was the near equivalent of a 20 gauge 870 with low brass #7's. Much of a muchness.

4x401
January 01, 2017, 13:52
You haven't mentioned what your part of the trade is, so I assume you are fine with the deal.

The rifle is very nice with good quality parts for sure. Have 2 friends running .458 Wilson uppers and both shoot very well. They don't call 'em Pumpkin chuckers for noth'in! They are literally a Blast to shoot.:rofl: I shot one a couple years back using a Colt select fire lower...terrible waste of ammo, but I didn't stop grinning for 2 hours. :D

Reloading is the only way to go if you want to shoot alot. Brass is expensive (buck a piece last time I looked) and them big slugs set ya back alot too. Stay away from the LEE dies! Buy a good quality set. GO FOR IT!

Eyeguy
January 02, 2017, 10:09
Well, no go on the trade. I had emailed and called the owner every day since Saturday with no response. Today he posts in my local listing that he's sold the rifle. Beginning to wonder if it was a total scam job. Never had trouble on the site before but you never know.......

Really wanted to sell my item as I have 2 BM59 kits ready to go to Shuffs for building but the .458 was really tempting.

Good Luck to badzero on getting one built.

Thanks, as always, for the feedback here. At least I learned something new....

hueyville
January 02, 2017, 12:32
When one gets away like this look at it like someone was watching out for you and saved from an unseen issue. Lose deals all the time due to my ask wife first rule. If screaming deal buy then ask but figure letting impulse stew may allow reason to overcome desire or hiding problem.

hueyville
January 02, 2017, 18:26
Walked in house with a black plastic box with SIG logo on side and all the model number, serial number, etc decals. Had not called as was presented at a very good price. In other hand was a $7 bundle of fresh lilies and asked which vase they would look best in. Leaned over gave wife kiss and asked to hold the flowers while cleared rest of stuff from hands to get flowers in vase. Pistol got thrown on foot of bed, lilies went into vase with water, set next to television. Now playing with new pistol, already in my IDPA rig running dry fire drills and wife not even asked about the new 1911 obviously getting cycled, mag swaps and more. Just keep peeking in to see her looking at the flowers and listen to her tanks for my thoughtfulness. Well played as said would try to restrain from any more 5" SIG 1911's for a few weeks.

L Haney
January 02, 2017, 18:49
Leaned over gave wife kiss...

This. Never let our women forget we love them. Not ever.

Eyeguy
January 03, 2017, 00:43
This. Never let our women forget we love them. Not ever.

Wisdom to live by. I wouldn't trade mine for 2 .458 SOCOM's...... Wait....was there cash with that trade??
:uhoh::uhoh:

hueyville
January 03, 2017, 02:42
No cash but 500 rounds of ammo....

nopec
January 03, 2017, 17:47
If you want a 45-70, get a 45-70. I feel much more comfortable pushing speeds up in my Marlin than I would in an AR.

SWOHFAL
January 04, 2017, 02:43
Thanks. So help me understand here; function, accuracy, feeding issues?

I'm not sure there's a problem, but when the round gets approved for SAAMI spec, your gun won't be and I'd be leery of possible issues.

hueyville
January 07, 2017, 09:26
If you want a 45-70, get a 45-70. I feel much more comfortable pushing speeds up in my Marlin than I would in an AR.

Been thinking about this thread and this quote. I put back a pair of stainless 45-70 lever rifles with 500 rounds and 5,000 primers each. World ends and can make black powder, the two smoke poles will create an obscured battle field, using home brewed black powder pressure will be low and brass life should be considerable. If break either even a tinkerer should be able to fix even if have to make a small replacement part.

For the man who just likes to do odd things for no reason, maybe a 458 AR makes a fun toy. Enjoy busting watermelons and pumpkins much as the next guy. But when look in my toolbox at work not only is there a standard ratchet wrench next to the pneumatic ratchet have breaker bars in 1/4" through 3/4" drive. Sometimes it's nice to run nuts and bolts at the press of a button, others not dragging a hose and a good stubby ratchet in tight space or long breaker bar on stuck nut is nice to have. Don't just have socket sets but also combination wrenches, Crescent wrenches, torque wrenches, screw drivers and hammers as well.

Just a few years ago had AR15's in TAC 20, 204 Ruger, 223, 5.56, Wylde (yes those three kind of interchangeable), 5.7×28, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8, 300 B.O., 300 Whisper and 7.62×40 Wilson. Keeping magazines segregated, rifles marked "multi-caliber" on lowers and actual chamberings on barrel hidden under handguards, ammo segregated as in some my turn bolt and repeater ammo didn't cross over well was turning into a mess. Had one particular user here saying we were all goofy (yes GP is right more than wrong) and looking at barrels piled up to build additional cartridges. Then started seeing regular issues with someone shoving a 300 B.O. magazine in a 5.56 rifle at ranges more often than was comfortable and had one of those light bulb moments.

Tore down my TAC20's, 204 Ruger, 6.5 Grendel, 300 B.O., 300 Whisper and never built some of the others had parts for. Now have rifles in the 223/5.56/Wylde family, 6.8 spc II, 7.62×40 Wilson and wife's pair of 5.7×28's. Don't think can mix up magazines in manner with those where round chambers, bolt locks up and fires if have a magazine mixup. If I were to add anything else to the mix the 458 is actually the most attractive at the moment but have no intentions as if need a bigger AR type hammer can just grab an AR 10 in 338 Federal and sledge hamma a bear if had big bears around me.

Was actually quite easy to sell a pair of broken in but perfect TAC20'S barrels with dies, brass, loaded ammo and 20 caliber bullets to a single person. Same with the 6.5 and 300's. Took the money and built a bigger pile of 5.56 family, 6.8's and dedicated subsonic suppressed 7.62×40 Wilsons. Segregated magazines, 6.8's all have 6.8 floor plates and the 7.62's are well marked. If world ends have enough 5.56 rifles and ammo to lead poison everything within a two mile radius of The Ponderosa. I know we are all tinkerer's and like odd stuff but am now on a standardization track that makes life at the bench, range and in the field much easier.

Not knocking anyone who enjoys making laser specific tools for each scenario as on occasion miss my flat shooting 204 when doping a long shot on a coyote. Of course if purposely hunting a long field can carry a 220 Swift or 22-250 Ackley Improved bolt rifle and flat shooting issues are done plus my turn bolts shoot more accurately. Why try to force a black rifle do a bolt actions job? Of all that have purged the 6.5 Grendel is likely most useful but ammunition availability and cost made it obsolete for me. Don't get range pickup 6.5 cases. How many find themselves in the which mag, which gun situation on occasion? Not me anymore.

hooch33
January 08, 2017, 01:10
If you want a 45-70, get a 45-70. I feel much more comfortable pushing speeds up in my Marlin than I would in an AR.

Your vagina is showing