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Potshot
September 27, 2016, 18:00
Have a 1911 that 3 point jams, especially on first round of full mag. Can anyone recommend a reference? Have Kuhnhausens book already. ..

tdb59
September 27, 2016, 18:06
http://www.m1911.org/technic21.htm




.................

ICOM7800
September 27, 2016, 18:35
Have a 1911 that 3 point jams, especially on first round of full mag. Can anyone recommend a reference? Have Kuhnhausens book already. ..

What do you mean?3 point jams?A jam means you have to beat it apart with a rubber mallet.You meam malfunction correct?Not sure what a 3 point is.Please clarify.Thanks

CG&L
September 27, 2016, 20:48
How long have you been shooting this particular 1911?
Has anyone done a little home gunsmithing on this gun?
Did the problem just pop up all at once?
Are you using a 10rd magazine?

C-ya
September 28, 2016, 18:52
What do you mean?3 point jams?A jam means you have to beat it apart with a rubber mallet.You meam malfunction correct?Not sure what a 3 point is.Please clarify.Thanks

See link in Post #2.

ICOM7800
September 29, 2016, 12:37
See link in Post #2.

Ok thanks.

douglas
September 29, 2016, 18:46
Not to be ugly, but I would take it to the next gunshow and trade it off for a SIG or a Glock that works right out of the box every time. That's just me.

juanni
September 29, 2016, 20:45
Not to be ugly, but I would take it to the next gunshow and trade it off for a SIG or a Glock that works right out of the box every time. That's just me.

Sound advise. :)





..............juanni

ALL FAL
September 29, 2016, 21:52
If everyone traded off Crap guns in the form of buyer beware, well, that would be F@cked, I would not and never have screwed anyone like that and have bought a lemon two times, one over gun trader and another was a 24c savage that had a bent barrel on the .22 part from a LGS that would not make good on it. I hate scumbags that do that kind of shit. The gun store went out of biz in less than a year.

douglas
October 01, 2016, 11:12
OP - not enough info on the 1911 in question to give an accurate answer on how to fix the jamming issues.

Semi-auto pistols generally have issues that can be fixed easily.
#1 Problem--Bad magazine. Change out with factory fresh or one of the better after market mags- Wilson, Chip McCormick etc.
#2 Problem - Recoil springs. They are either weak or overstrength. Replace with new recoil spring of the proper factory rating for the pistol.
#3 Problem- Barrel - Chamber could be tight or short chambered.Feed ramp may need to be polished or someone over polished it and ruined the proper feed angle into the chamber.The barrel linkage could also be worn or cracked.
#4 Problem-Ammo-Some older model 1911 barrels will not feed hollow point ammo reliably.

Not a 1911 hater by any means, however some of them can be finicky in getting them to run properly.
If bought new -ship it back to factory. If bought used, try the above. If the pistol is a family heirloom and you don't want to get rid of it, mount it on a nice display board.

My suggestion to trade it away is just that. I will not own a firearm that does not work when the trigger is pulled each and every time. Self defense firearms are critical in this regard. Hunting rifles-the trophy buck of a lifetime just walked away wasting all of the time and money that you spent in order to put yourself in a position to harvest the game in question.

The question was asked if I would give full disclosure of a troubled firearm while doing a possible trade and the answer is yes I would. There is KARMA in the world and I try to stay on the right side of it.
There are a couple of rules at Gunshows:
#1- Let the buyer beware.
#2 -Buy the gun- Not the story that goes with it.
#3- If it sounds too good to be true- It is.
I have picked up a couple of lemons over the years as well.

Could be a topic for a new thread in the General Firearm section. Might call it "Screwed at the Gunshow" or maybe "Gun Deals Gone Bad." ALL FAL can start it.

1911Ron
October 04, 2016, 12:58
Not to be ugly, but I would take it to the next gunshow and trade it off for a SIG or a Glock that works right out of the box every time. That's just me.

Just an FYI any manufacturer can have a gun that will have issues right "out of the box" so your statement is a bunch of BS "not to be ugly" and as for trading off a problem gun to some one else is BS which tells me you have no credibility and are dishonest but "that's just me" "not to be ugly" or anything:rolleyes:

idsubgun
October 05, 2016, 08:42
Have a 1911 that 3 point jams, especially on first round of full mag. Can anyone recommend a reference? Have Kuhnhausens book already. ..

Is this a factory pistol, or a homemade one?

If factory, get it back to the factory and have them fix the problem.

If homemade, get it to a 1911 pistolsmith that understands the 1911 barrel link, and how it works. There are many things that come into play with that link, including lug engagement. With too much lug engagement, the pistol will never work correctly. If too little, it could possibly be a dangerous situation.
Make sure the gunsmith is a 1911 'smith because that link is one of the most important parts of the function, accuracy and safety of the 1911 pistol. Correct barrel fitment is crucial, and not just in the link.

douglas
October 05, 2016, 14:50
Just an FYI any manufacturer can have a gun that will have issues right "out of the box" so your statement is a bunch of BS "not to be ugly" and as for trading off a problem gun to some one else is BS which tells me you have no credibility and are dishonest but "that's just me" "not to be ugly" or anything:rolleyes:

Wow just wow..my feelings are soooo hurt. He almost called me a Democrat. Now that would of pissed me off.
So it's OK.

I guess if 1911RON had taken the time to read my second post in this thread he would of seen that I am not a 1911 hater. But I committed the mortal sin of mentioning other guns brands (SIG /Glock) in a 1911 Forum thread and had the ill grace of failing to say that the 1911 is the "One Pistol to Rule All" and for failing to bow down to the 1911 holiness therefore hail and brimstone must be cast upon me in order to redeem me from my sins

There is nothing wrong with trading away a pistol that won't work right. Just as long as you tell em about the issues with the gun in the full disclosure stuff prior to the trade. Lots of people like to work on a troubled gun especially if they think it is a minor problem that can be easily fixed and they can lowball ya on the trade. All of my gun dealing have been seller happy/ buyer happy or the deal didn't get done.

Hopefully the OP will be able to get the bugs worked out of his 1911. However if he doesn't there
are lots of nice used police trade in pistols floating around , maybe if the OP wants to he can trade his 1911 for a Beretta 92 or 96, or an H@K USP 45 /40/9. Still seeing Smith and Wesson 5906 around and if he is lucky he may trade into a CZ75 or a Browning Hi-Power. Already mentioned SIG and Glock. Lots of good choices to select from that will actually work without too many issues.

Better yet, maybe 1911RON can even offer him some words of wisdom to assist the OP in his quest to fix his pistol instead of posting negative crap about me because he doesn't know how to read the posts in this thread. It will be time better spent and some good Karma might flow his way.

idsubgun
October 05, 2016, 19:05
Wow just wow..my feelings are soooo hurt. He almost called me a Democrat. Now that would of pissed me off.
So it's OK.

I guess if 1911RON had taken the time to read my second post in this thread he would of seen that I am not a 1911 hater. But I committed the mortal sin of mentioning other guns brands (SIG /Glock) in a 1911 Forum thread and had the ill grace of failing to say that the 1911 is the "One Pistol to Rule All" and for failing to bow down to the 1911 holiness therefore hail and brimstone must be cast upon me in order to redeem me from my sins.

The OP did not provide a lot of info on his 1911 pistol in his post asking for help. Kind of like saying my truck is broke but I have a Chilton manual so help me out.
Never heard of a three point jam, maybe he meant a double feed malfunction? Probably not a stovepipe. Maybe it is a FTF type jam then?

There is nothing wrong with trading away a pistol that won't work right. Just as long as you tell em about the issues with the gun in the full disclosure stuff prior to the trade. Lots of people like to work on a troubled gun especially if they think it is a minor problem that can be easily fixed and they can lowball ya on the trade. All of my gun dealing have been seller happy/ buyer happy or the deal didn't get done.

Hopefully the OP will be able to get the bugs worked out of his 1911. However if he doesn't there
are lots of nice used police trade in pistols floating around , maybe if the OP wants to he can trade his 1911 for a Beretta 92 or 96, or an H@K USP 45 /40/9. Still seeing Smith and Wesson 5906 around and if he is lucky he may trade into a CZ75 or a Browning Hi-Power. Already mentioned SIG and Glock. Lots of good choices to select from that will actually work without too many issues.

Better yet, maybe 1911RON can even offer him some words of wisdom to assist the OP in his quest to fix his pistol instead of posting negative crap about me because he doesn't know how to read the posts in this thread. It will be time better spent and some good Karma might flow his way.

Ahem...Douglas, read post #2 to understand a 3 point jam.

douglas
October 05, 2016, 21:49
Ahem...Douglas, read post #2 to understand a 3 point jam.
idsubgun,
Sounds like you nailed the problem for the OP. Good post by tdb59. Hopefully he can get is pistol fixed properly. Now I too know what a 3 point jam is. Thanks.
__________________

Potshot
October 06, 2016, 22:48
Hey guys, been a bit busy sorry to be slow on the getback.

Gun is a Norinco. Barrel is Storm Lake, fit per Kuhnhausen. Fit bushing, all that stuff, springs are fresh, recoil is 18.5 lb/in mainspring is extra power Wolff, don't remember rate.

Shortened link, no joy, went back to commie barrel/link no joy. It does rounds from mag, but knocks bullet ~0.050" back into case.

Bought this thing to learn 1911's so I am more interested in fixing it than anything, have other pistolas so not too worried about that.

Gun is a tackdriver and with the mainspring/firing pin stop setup I have in it it shoots like a pussycat.

Oh, mags are new McCormick 8 & 10 rounders, Wilson new 8 rounder and a Colt mag. All do the same malfunction.

Plan on checking feedramp angle... not sure what after that!! ...may cobble slide onto frame without barrel and see of popping rounds out of mag produces same bullet set-back.

idsubgun
October 07, 2016, 07:33
Potshot, while I've mentioned the Kuhnhausen books several times over the years, I also recommend a good video series such as the Wilson Combat Customizing the 1911 series. Although it does some stuff different then I was taught by Bill Laughridge at Cylinder & Slide, it will teach you everything you need to know. I bought it back when it was on VHS but I imagine it's as good today, possibly even better.

Well worth the price!!

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Combat-Customizing-the-1911-Auto-DVD-Set/productinfo/384D/

One thing 1911's need is a space, or step, approx. 1/32" where the frame ramp meets the barrel ramp. You need this! Did you check that?

One thing you need to keep in mind. Too many people think they want to make their 1911 into match pistols but intend to use it as a carry gun. That concept could get you killed. If you plan on carrying the pistol, you need a combat 1911 (also called tactical).
The match 1911's are set up tighter then a carry gun. This could lead to it locking up due to dirt, etc. If that happened during a match, no a big deal, you lose the match. If it happened in a combat situation, it could get you killed.
Now, don't mistake a combat pistol as being less accurate then a match gun. If set up properly, it will be as accurate. People think a tight match slide to frame fit is needed to make a 1911 accurate but the accuracy of a 1911 in mostly in the barrel lock up to the slide. You tightened up the slide to frame fit on a combat 1911 only in the front and rear, not along the full length as in a match gun. Then, right after you fire, and the slide starts to retract, you have a "sloppier" fit so it'll work if dirty. Think of the AK's. They work because they have slop in the action.



.

TenTea
October 07, 2016, 09:39
Gun is a Norinco. Barrel is Storm Lake, fit per Kuhnhausen. Fit bushing, all that stuff, springs are fresh, recoil is 18.5 lb/in mainspring is extra power Wolff, don't remember rate.



For starters, if it were mine, I'd go with Colt factory spec spring rates for 5 inch Gubment Model:
Recoil spring = 16 lbs.
Main spring = 23 lbs.

If it to be solely a wadcutter gun (light loads) then a 14 lb recoil spring and a lighter mainspring may be in order.

Potshot
October 07, 2016, 09:52
Id, we are on the same page. I agree on all points and I have set up the slide to frame as you say, if not a tad looser. The 1/32 gap is there.

This is not a carry gun for me at this point, my carry stuff is da/sa.

The rounds really nosedive in the mag, but they're supposedly good mags...

Steve in Allentown, PA
October 07, 2016, 16:04
Potshot,

Forgive me if this has already been addressed. Every round out of the magazine will nose dive to one degree or another. The first round out is the worst and the last round out barely dips. One of the tricks is to make sure the frame feedramp extends down into the frame far enough to catch that first round so that it can be deflected upward. You want the ramp to be as deep is possible in the frame consistent with maintaining the feed ramp angle and the 1/32" gap between the top of the frame ramp and the barrel ramp.

The spec feed ramp angle is 31.5 degrees but depending on a variety of factors may have to be increased or decreased for optimum feeding. A real 1911 'smith should be consulted on this point.

Ideally, the ramp would extend .400" below the top of the rails or at least to the slide stop cut out.

idsubgun
October 07, 2016, 16:48
Potshot, you say you have Kuhnhausen's 1911 manual. I'm assuming it's volume one. Volume two has blueprints, dimensions, etc. Sounds as if you might need to have it as well.

Potshot
October 07, 2016, 19:17
Guys, thanks for responding. Will check feed ramp depth. Think my Kuhnhausen book has both volumes? I do have the receiver print though.

I do believe that the front of the lugs may be allowing slop in the barrel position when linked down, so had them welded today. Vertical lockup is good, which would explain excellent accuracy. We'll see where this goes!

hueyville
October 21, 2016, 13:31
Any follow up on how your project is going?

Wildcat
October 23, 2016, 23:12
Apologies if its been mentioned already and I missed it but what ammunition is involved in the misfeeds?

Factory ammo?

Brand?

Handloads?

Bullet profile?

Potshot
April 27, 2018, 21:55
Hello all, update on this thing.

I've put an EGW angle bushing in it, not because there was an issue with the original, but just because. It's still a tackdriver, but just a liiiiitle smoother with the bushing.

Also added extended ejector to clear empties out of way, loaded rounds eject just fine (I did set length and clearance to mag).

Ran the 10-8 extractor test, passed with flying colors. Original Chingchong extractor, EGW firing pin stop. Ejects consistently.

The gun will feed empties like greased lightning no problem. As many mags of empties as you care to shuck through.

The rounds I'm having trouble with are regular ball ammo. I've ordered 7 round GI stainless mags from Checkmate, so we'll see what happens when they show.

sniperdoc
April 27, 2018, 22:35
OP, can you post pics of the feed ramp and chamber?

Also, what lube are you using? Have you stripped it down,thoroughly cleaned everything, and re-lubed it?

Potshot
May 04, 2018, 10:26
Its clean and lubes. Traveling so no pics

Mags showed up, will advise after shooting...

gunseller
May 06, 2018, 17:56
Wow Douglas I had a sig that never worked and I was the original owner. I have also had Glocks that would jam every once in a while. So much for them being better firearms.
Steve

hueyville
May 08, 2018, 13:06
Not to be ugly, but I would take it to the next gunshow and trade it off for a SIG or a Glock that works right out of the box every time. That's just me.

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/30226895_10155049231621601_7619150448414425088_n.j pg?_nc_cat=0&efg=eyJpIjoibCJ9&oh=16cf5a0788fe7be1a07821a475c049a1&oe=5B4FC2FC

hueyville
May 08, 2018, 14:23
Have built over 25 1911's and owned at least 75 of which still own most. Never had a three point jam. I would hesitate to elongate any pin holes in link but fit link properly. World is full of AR hacks followed in a close second by AR hacks. Have seen quite a few abortions of each. We have had two Glocks come back at LGS in past year that at 25 yards would not even print on target and with rear sight fully drifted they still shot almost a foot off center of target due to hole in front of slide being located off center. Now seeing huge number of home modified Glocks coming in all fubar. Was in a gun shop recently when a guy comes in carrying his Glock in an Ghost unlimited IPSC holster because with his home installed comp would not fit any other holster and he had to remove, clear and hand to anyone willing to try his trigger. Had put a three pound pull drop in kit but honed, polished and massaged till had it dropping at 2.25 pounds. A two pound trigger on a striker fired pistol with no safety! Idiots abound even among Glocks owners.

Glad to read this is a project pistol where owner is using to learn the nuances of wrenching on 1911's. Working from books and manuals are better than trial and error though some is stI'll required. Back in the 1980's took the one week introductory builders course for 1911's by an American Pistolsmith's Guild Smith of the Year followed by his one week intermediate course and one week advanced course. Still have much of my knowledge but years ago hired welder to do most of my welding work and my actual feel for fine welding projects is gone so have to let my guy weld up barrel hoods to fit into slide fit nice and snug.

How is your deck height? Messed with fitting slide to frame altering your deck height and getting bore to high or low? You should have about 0.450" from top of deck to center of slide release hole. Before I swapped a lot of parts would do a lot of measuring and math. Can't tell you the number of times someone has brought me a slide they tried to tighten to rails using a shop vice with intent to nudge slide closed,a tad then lap slide to frame fit. If want a really tight side to frame fit most Kimberly are too tight out of the box and why need 1,000 rounds before wear in enough for reliable carry.

While Norco frames are solid for doing a custom build on as a good smith is going to rework everything, as shipped from factory they are known to have very loose frame to slide fit with lots of machining marks that many mistakingly try to hone out increasing amount of slop and they are known for pin holes being a fudge off but usually within operating tolerance. First thing I would do is totally strip that puppy, put it back together with all its original parts and do a function check. Odds are it will work unless you have modified feed ramp as was built and tested to run. Then would add back my modifications one at a time.

If have polished or ground on feed ramp my guess is went too far and bullet is catching on sharp front edge of feed ramp. Here is another part have welded many back up and then recur to,proper tolerance. Most first time 1911 smiths tendency is to be overly aggressive at removing metal when polishing feed ramps and champhering throat of chamber. Most of my 1911's get very light polish of feed ramps if any and no alterations of chamber. I assume you bought a barrel with oversize lugs to allow fitting to slide? 70% of true accuracy comes from your barrel to slide fit. While I have and use a slide tightening jig on race builds always expect some trial and error in fit as gun is built up as don't wrench on 1911's daily.

Even with 30+ years of tinkering with 1911's and three weeks of in-shop builders classes when my carry guns get wrenched on are usually sent out for anything more than repspring and typical 5,000 round/10,000 round service. I will do triggers on occasion but if want it below 3.75 pounds send it out as so many factors go into proper fit for a light but 100% safe 1911 trigger.

Do go down to fat side of three pounds on informal range guns myself but always think before do something how skilled am I for the task at hand? Have built a pile of Harleys but almost always have someone who wrenches on them daily tighten the sprocket nut on transmission. Don't hit it hard enough with the impact wrench and will have a chain tearing your leg off and hit it too hard will break something in the tranny. Same with triggers, get anything out of square, improper angle or remove too much meat and thing might just drop the hammer with a mind of its own instead of at your command or run off on you when least expect. Range toys can go loopy but carry guns can't. Nothing wrong with tinkering with a toy as long as not holster in it as a carry the next day.

Since my pistolsmith retired and not chosen a replacement do all my practice with my home built race guns to keep round count down on my professionally built race guns. Whenever decide on another carry generally buy a SIG 1911 with majority of features I want, put 500 rounds through it, swap the parts I feel comfortable swapping on a carry then put 500 more rounds down the pipe followed by a call to my rep at SIG custom shop. Give him the serial number, modifications made since leaving the factory and send back to their custom shop where the same guy always follows my wish list put in letter with pistol. While scope of work is always on work order officially SIG will not take a 1911 trigger below four pounds but of the five now sent and returned all have a dead solid 3.25 pound crisp trigger job as request in a very kind letter thanking smith ahead of time for past work as well as present.

So my real race guns are professionally built as are my carries. Do not want to be in court with home built "killer gun" shooting "extra deadly handloads". Tinker a bunch on my pile of range guns from ground up builds on raw frame and slide and every part of the build down to all services a professional would offer but to me no matter if shoot 10,000 rounds without malfunction are still tous. On carry 1911's do all standard service necessary based on round count like changing oil in a truck, make really basic changes like sights, grips, magwell, metal checkering and some refinish work but any customization or major repair/rebuild will have receipt from professional with good reputation. Have fun, if you lived close have lots of tools and have a slide on my mill right now about to get Bowmar cuts for some nice combat sigjts.

Potshot
May 10, 2018, 22:47
My carry stuff is all double/single/decocker. Right now all HK or CZ. Run the HKs for 20+ years so I know them.

Anyhow, got new mags in, started having some hangups with case now on extractor (aha!). Front of extractor contacting case bevel. Now time for new extractor (probably EGW) and re-test.

Gun is still a tackdriver.

idsubgun
May 11, 2018, 09:30
My carry stuff is all double/single/decocker. Right now all HK or CZ. Run the HKs for 20+ years so I know them.

Anyhow, got new mags in, started having some hangups with case now on extractor (aha!). Front of extractor contacting case bevel. Now time for new extractor (probably EGW) and re-test.

Gun is still a tackdriver.

Google "1911 extractor tuning" and try that before buying a new extractor.

Potshot
May 11, 2018, 10:56
Oh yeah.

Problem is it looks too long. By the time I get the case relief clearance, won't be much extractor hook left.

Steve in Allentown, PA
May 11, 2018, 13:50
Problem is it looks too long. By the time I get the case relief clearance, won't be much extractor hook left.Without engaging the services of a a real 1911 'smith the best you can do is buy the shortest extractor available (EGW). I suggest fitting an oversized firing pin stop at the same time since it and the extractor are a team. Fitting a new firing pin stop will allow you to mate it perfectly to the extractor thus eliminating any possible extractor clocking or movement fore and aft.

The EGW Practical (http://www.egwguns.com/1911-parts/egw-practical-extractor-45-series-80-blue/) and Heavy Duty (http://www.egwguns.com/1911-parts/hd-extractor-45-acp-ser-70-blue/) extractors are the same length. The Practical is easier to fit.

The link below may be of some interest to you if you decide to fit a new extractor.

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=829865

Potshot
May 12, 2018, 06:07
Huey, thanks for the offer, very nice of you.

Gun already has an oversize firing pin stop, if it wasn't too far forward it'd be all good. Proper tension too...