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STG_58_guy
September 19, 2016, 17:00
edit: please see post 47.

So I noticed over pressure signs on a used AK 74 (5.45 x 39) test firing with Red Army Standard 69gr FMJ fodder. Thought maybe I had some hot ammo. So I tried a few other brands (WPA Military Classic 60gr FMJ, WPA 55 gr SP, and Hornady 60 gr V-Max). All steel case. All showed over pressure signs - bulged and/or cratered primers, and maybe a ring around the case.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hmavkc5iTmt7fi9cFWo7EM009QGi9rBwf6MLAipY9Zz91_Nfol UkcAEfdi3Y3ceWANUWNrmMQE0irULc_5Q7gF38Yju-GR2f6XySgFNKqDU6rSGzendhJ4N0DEf37bTKW48wESbN-rWsIrRicyvhJye2xjj2hRDfVhgjZpZ2oG2q8-exkgv76M_uKld9xdpySrwGGQHpDc7zJmBfdMSElBDV7kob2ek0 Q10mP3PRRsGaPgL3O5rFHPXU4ZfGL6hc-QAj6dOzb9LP1MzIRfmGE0xj_kWsjtXrGMz31uaqMQrRdl5LK-iN3bUJjYzJ49z3oKo2lbsz8XoxG72WdBHJmLf-k3rCC5B0MWqR5jT8Gr7xBThfoTmVwjeXB1_7XFXqXmnzHupk9-l4LnF5Ha4qWDZloCJA6VvZrplcibI7GAj8E6x7BrT15Zj98kge QY2T1tyqy-pBlFMtP--rfUjdElUZrQvqcur3SLChmUwSFUL4gs4KyO_mirTk7DXb8jeA2 7vwxgof0sJtvYK8ZG9Apsk-SQt-HPn-4G2Ykrg2inj0S_fP50LSYPeoDftjKGM7xhNfGpi54yVcZPMmnq fcGpX7-dAJc770aEMFMKmMCoLwfoG6=w1366-h355-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/KWTAtkSzmlfNngsBDx0lKj5hAlmhdYu2RduRdMO_G6yhPMK0j-13s-omZjYIgb4BlkQUAJgIXldjlsLZPILzhCejHzuuEM-HKnLGU3cenx9V6NmOzk9FcwO2jhaXJUlKY7eD6IlA47Uzbhdia f_zJuBmYgfp9dflF0RO4FwbV1E2AvJRwH_8hbcdKUKf-g5jiWg1AWPD--fnCEfJAK6AmCcgdY_ZJTbSzyAtSMxZgn3Ka0HJofaodExK6oA3 nnkoMkoniloYXfcubhHCd4BDxi-fnS6NW3ODxQ5NIdjueUh8fD5fI588lb-zDhS5VDe7JUp5gM-7G05puCYOwt9aA5feB5KD9WQs3HY1uBttTCD85rXuFwTaifmEZ 1ApC46Virmfpcna7z7zQEPx2AB1A6cgNfhieFZomjxuJT5eE_8 ZPbTbAhlzbP8z_uf_tgj_3YJLoqYdbTfJP99lQkF0tclypOKai LuzbiOpJtZA8d5SpR_gjUQOtpoOQa51jd2vG_QCzVoUMrYcTFe 6lEjnspqlIqhLPKCdL89VL4vO6jM0755z9h0feh7s2ljCY8kD5 Kby3BZtUWmWj9IwJAlzN2CJEN9zZAWyu_92EK8bSFcJ26Ih=w1 311-h643-no

It is unlikely all four were loaded wrong. So I figure it must be head space.

I stuck about ten layers of scotch tape on the back end of a fresh round, trimmed it to the right diameter and tried to bring the round into battery. It was stiff, but it closed.

How do you reset the head space on one of these? Any other ideas?

:fal:

Edit: Sorry about the big pics. And I just went to Century's website where they call themselves Century International Arms. For a while, I thought they were Century Arms International. So they can't even get their name right?

STG_58_guy
September 20, 2016, 06:23
Wow. Nobody?

CG&L
September 20, 2016, 07:08
You need to have someone check your rifle with the right head space gauges.
The bolt shouldn't close on 10 pieces of tape. This would worry me to no end if it were my rifle

I would say you have a head space problem(dangerously so) and not an over-pressure problem

gunplumber
September 20, 2016, 07:37
Pull the barrel, pull the rear sight block. Hard solder or weld the barrel pin channel, reinstall to correct headspace, redrill/ream/pin. Reinstall rear sight block. I'd charge $350+ in labor, but I don't accept Century or I/O guns for work due to the low quality.

Now in theory, you can (if your RSB isn't bottomed out), press the barrel in a little deeper and use and oversize barrel pin. I can't bring myself to ruin a good trunion that way, but if it's a UIS made trunion, it is of dubious value anyway.


Wow. Nobody?
Maybe nobody cares because you bought a century. Stupid is supposed to hurt. And yeah, you are stupid. You of all people knew exactly what you were doing when you bought the cheapest piece of shit on the market. This is the logical consequence of your decision.

idsubgun
September 20, 2016, 07:47
To set headspace on an AK, you press the barrel into the trunnion until you achieve the proper headspace. Then you drill and pin the barrel to the trunnion.
To fix your problem, you'll need to remove the pin and press the barrel back until you get the proper headspace, and can possibly get away with using an oversized pin. It's not that hard of a job to do but without the proper tools, and a way of making a precision hole for the new pin, it can be a bitch! You'll be making the new hole slightly offset to the old hole, and a drill will try to follow the old hole. It'll need to be machined, or bored. Maybe you could weld up the old hole but you'd better be a good welder or you could easily lose the temper in the barrel.
I'd send it to someone to do it. I imagine Gunplumber can do it.

idsubgun
September 20, 2016, 07:48
Good, I see Gunplumber answered while I was typing.

STG_58_guy
September 20, 2016, 08:40
Pull the barrel, pull the rear sight block. Hard solder or weld the barrel pin channel, reinstall to correct headspace, redrill/ream/pin. Reinstall rear sight block. I'd charge $350+ in labor, but I don't accept Century or I/O guns for work due to the low quality.

Now in theory, you can (if your RSB isn't bottomed out), press the barrel in a little deeper and use and oversize barrel pin. I can't bring myself to ruin a good trunion that way, but if it's a UIS made trunion, it is of dubious value anyway.



Maybe nobody cares because you bought a century. Stupid is supposed to hurt. And yeah, you are stupid. You of all people knew exactly what you were doing when you bought the cheapest piece of shit on the market. This is the logical consequence of your decision.

Thanks you for the advice.

The rifle belongs to the widow of a friend. She asked me to help sell a small collection for her. I checked them all for function and here we are.

The thing is a SAR 2 and says it was made in Romania and imported by CAI. It has ban features. Was it built by Century or Cugir? Would Century know? Maybe it is under warranty...

idsubgun
September 20, 2016, 08:45
It is not under warranty anymore.

It will cost a pretty penny to fix, as GP stated, more then the rifle cost new.

I'd be willing to make you an offer, but it'll be low as I will have to spend a few hours to fix it. PM me if interested.

CG&L
September 20, 2016, 10:41
Quite the dilemma. Sell the junk gun to some unsuspecting person for $300-400 or sell it for nothing to idsubgun. He'll be able to turn it into a safe to shoot gun

It's not a dilemma for me, I just cut 'em up and use salvageable parts. There's no need to turn an unsafe gun loose, even if it cost you.

gunplumber
September 20, 2016, 12:19
It is important when dealing with the "Century Arms" to specify whether it is a CAI manufactured rifle or a CAI imported rifle. As we know from the FAL, the differences are huge.

SAR 2 is a factory Romy gun that was imported by CAI - Romak, Intrac, CUGR, etc. It came in as a thumbhole with neutered muzzle and thumbhole stock. It uses a unique bolt. AK 100 series 762, .223s and 5.45s all use the 5.45 narrow shank with corresponding bolt face. The Romy uses the 7.62 shank with a smaller bolt face.

While the primers are indicative of excessive headspace, you really need to use the proper gauge. Unfortunately, they are not cheap. I use Pacific Tool & Gauge and original CIP.

There is a possibility that someone modified the bolt. But finding a Romy bolt will be next to impossible.

If you can borrow another bolt to test, you can at least determine whether the issue is caused by an improperly pressed barrel, or a modified bolt.

idsubgun
September 20, 2016, 12:28
SAR 2 is a factory Romy gun that was imported by CAI - Romak, Intrac, CUGR, etc. It came in as a thumbhole with neutered muzzle and thumbhole stock.

The SAR1's, 2'sand 3's didn't have a thumbhole stock. I brought in, and sold a couple dozen, and kept 4 for myself. They did have the neutered muzzle (no muzzle device or bayonet mount).

idsubgun
September 20, 2016, 12:35
The SAR1 is on the left, and two SAR2's are on the right. The two outside rifles are exactly how they were imported.


http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp40/bjplowman/AK%20Stuff/HPIM0021_zpsiijuufhk.jpg (http://s395.photobucket.com/user/bjplowman/media/AK%20Stuff/HPIM0021_zpsiijuufhk.jpg.html)

pre1989
September 20, 2016, 15:21
This is odd to me ..The SAR guns are some of the less crap guns Century imported ..I firg you had one of the newere chepo parts gun they were making ..

As noted find a headspace gauge and go from there ..It wont be cheep to fix 10-1 ..Till then I would hold off firing it

yellowhand
September 20, 2016, 15:42
Just curious, would a Bulgarian AK74 Bolt, 5.45X39 work in this Romanian built rifle?????

https://www.apexgunparts.com/ak-all-models-and-calibers/bulgarian-ak74/bulgarian-ak74-bolt-5-45x39-complete.html


Midway has complete bolts for AK74, one review says it won't fit the third model, but the 1st or 2nd???

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/360732/arsenal-inc-complete-bolt-assembly-ak-47-ak-74-sar-3-slr-106-223-remington

randy762ak
September 20, 2016, 22:27
Maybe nobody cares because you bought a century. Stupid is supposed to hurt. And yeah, you are stupid. You of all people knew exactly what you were doing when you bought the cheapest piece of shit on the market. This is the logical consequence of your decision.


I like how you said that--!!
I have the Same wording for people who buy =WEED Eater --Ryobi ==Poulan or Craftsman Trimmers ==then bring them to be because they are starving for fuel and a carb costs as much as a new trimmer !!
Well said !!! :rofl:

gunplumber
September 21, 2016, 07:51
The SAR1's, 2'sand 3's didn't have a thumbhole stock. I brought in, and sold a couple dozen, and kept 4 for myself. They did have the neutered muzzle (no muzzle device or bayonet mount).

Well, I converted about a hundred of them from thumbholes - it's where I started my relationship with Matt at Ironwood designs for the US furniture, and did my first project with Harold at FSE for the US brakes and adapters for the neutered barrels and US fire control parts. I was retailing 4 packs of DDR bakelites for $25.

idsubgun
September 21, 2016, 08:15
Well, I converted about a hundred of them from thumbholes - it's where I started my relationship with Matt at Ironwood designs for the US furniture, and did my first project with Harold at FSE for the US brakes and adapters for the neutered barrels and US fire control parts. I was retailing 4 packs of DDR bakelites for $25.

Two retail sales outlets in the Boise, Idaho area swamped the gun shows for a couple of years with hundreds, if not thousands, of SAR1,2 & 3's, and I saw racks of 50 or more at each gun show and NONE had a thumbhole stock.
Why would they be importing thumbhole stocks to Arizona and not Idaho? Like I said, I saw hundreds of these things, none with a thumbhole stock.The only thumbhole stocks on AK's that I remember were on Chinese guns, and Draganov versions.

hagar
September 21, 2016, 08:32
The SAR1's, 2'sand 3's didn't have a thumbhole stock. I brought in, and sold a couple dozen, and kept 4 for myself. They did have the neutered muzzle (no muzzle device or bayonet mount).

Agree, I bought my SAR-2 with a regular stock from AIM. Paid $250..:wink:

The WASR2 or CUR2 might have had the thumbhole.

idsubgun
September 21, 2016, 08:39
Agree, I bought my SAR-2 with a regular stock from AIM. Paid $250..:wink:

The WASR2 or CUR2 might have had the thumbhole.

Yeah, the CUR2 had them, or at least some did.

Texgunner
September 21, 2016, 09:04
In 2002, a group of my friends and I bought seven SAR-1 rifles from a dealer in Boise, Idaho. None of them had thumb-hole stocks. They looked just like the rifle on the left in idsubgun's pic. Mine is perhaps the most accurate AK I own.

gunplumber
September 21, 2016, 16:02
I really don't think I am misremembering swapping out thumbholes. It's how I met Matt Shuster. Perhaps it was because from 1989 to 1994, the thumbhole was exempt from the Republican import ban. In 1994, ATF changed their policy. They were Intrac Arms (Ratmil) C.U.R. 2 if I remember correctly, got them from Greg Needham / StG supply. So I guess that particular one is not trade-named SAR-2, but it is a Romy 5.45 thumbhole.

But it was 25 years ago and I've been sniffing paint fumes all day . . ..

This probably never existed either . ..

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/573/11731868/img_1292.jpg_thumbnail0.jpg

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/573/11731868/img_1295.jpg_thumbnail0.jpg

idsubgun
September 21, 2016, 16:54
I do remember those. They had that God awful grip you couldn't get your hand around.

bulletslap
September 21, 2016, 20:29
I purchased a SAR-2 in 2000, it had a regular AKM type stock - no grooves in it like the wood stocked 74s had. It was OK for 295 or so.

STG_58_guy
September 22, 2016, 11:20
The SAR1 is on the left, and two SAR2's are on the right. The two outside rifles are exactly how they were imported.


http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp40/bjplowman/AK%20Stuff/HPIM0021_zpsiijuufhk.jpg (http://s395.photobucket.com/user/bjplowman/media/AK%20Stuff/HPIM0021_zpsiijuufhk.jpg.html)

The rifle in question looks exactly like the one on the far left, but says SAR 2 on it.

Anybody got a set of head space gauges I can borrow? I'll pay shipping and insurance both ways.

STG_58_guy
September 24, 2016, 09:42
Looks like I could buy her a new barrel for $89. Could I take the old barrel off, set, drill and pin a new barrel, and have it properly headspaced? I'd use the old hole in the trunion.

:confused:

I'd still like to borrow or rent a set of headspace gauges. PM me if you can help a brother out.

Thanks!

TOWS220
September 24, 2016, 10:08
I might still have 5.45x39 hs gages. I won't be home for a week, but you can borrow them if I can find them.

STG_58_guy
September 24, 2016, 11:00
I might still have 5.45x39 hs gages. I won't be home for a week, but you can borrow them if I can find them.

No hurry. It isn't going anywhere. I'll pay freight both ways. Thank you and have a safe trip.

hkshooter
September 25, 2016, 17:50
I really don't think I am misremembering swapping out thumbholes. It's how I met Matt Shuster. Perhaps it was because from 1989 to 1994, the thumbhole was exempt from the Republican import ban. In 1994, ATF changed their policy. They were Intrac Arms (Ratmil) C.U.R. 2 if I remember correctly, got them from Greg Needham / StG supply. So I guess that particular one is not trade-named SAR-2, but it is a Romy 5.45 thumbhole.

But it was 25 years ago and I've been sniffing paint fumes all day . . ..

This probably never existed either . ..

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/573/11731868/img_1292.jpg_thumbnail0.jpg

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/573/11731868/img_1295.jpg_thumbnail0.jpg

In 2001 I bought an SAR2 Intrac that looked identical to this. Paid $177. At the time I had a choice of this one or the wire folder and chose this one because I wanted the standard rear trunnion. Only difference was mine had the upturned cocking handle.

STG58, I wouldn't replace that barrel with a US made part. It's an original factory barrel and is worth repairing to save it, IMO.

Bubacus
September 25, 2016, 18:49
Some people buy a century because it's all they can afford...some buy a century because they want a clone of a gun they like. I've had a Century Galil like clone and CETME clone that needed some TLC. Some advice on the files, a little dremel work, and a few few spare parts and they run very well. I don't mind tinkering and fooling around to get them to work as I have lots of other guns that are %100.

AKs are a bit different, there are a number of options and Century and IO aren't great ones. But that being said, where there is a will there is a way. I hope it works out for you.

Maybe nobody cares because you bought a century. Stupid is supposed to hurt. And yeah, you are stupid. You of all people knew exactly what you were doing when you bought the cheapest piece of shit on the market. This is the logical consequence of your decision.


I like how you said that--!!
I have the Same wording for people who buy =WEED Eater --Ryobi ==Poulan or Craftsman Trimmers ==then bring them to be because they are starving for fuel and a carb costs as much as a new trimmer !!
Well said !!! :rofl:

bulletslap
September 25, 2016, 21:40
Looks like I could buy her a new barrel for $89. Could I take the old barrel off, set, drill and pin a new barrel, and have it properly headspaced? I'd use the old hole in the trunion.

:confused:

I'd still like to borrow or rent a set of headspace gauges. PM me if you can help a brother out.

Thanks!

Yes you can do that, it helps if you have a press and trunnion support.

def90
September 25, 2016, 21:53
Looks like I could buy her a new barrel for $89. Could I take the old barrel off, set, drill and pin a new barrel, and have it properly headspaced? I'd use the old hole in the trunion.

:confused:

I'd still like to borrow or rent a set of headspace gauges. PM me if you can help a brother out.

Thanks!

Sell it to someone over at the AKFiles with the disclosure of the issue. Someone with the ability to fix it themselves will buy it in a second. Don't take off the original import barrel and replace it with a shit $80 US barrel, you will take all the value out of the rifle to anyone that would want it for what it is.

STG_58_guy
September 26, 2016, 01:06
Sell it to someone over at the AKFiles with the disclosure of the issue. Someone with the ability to fix it themselves will buy it in a second. Don't take off the original import barrel and replace it with a shit $80 US barrel, you will take all the value out of the rifle to anyone that would want it for what it is.

What do you think I could get for it?

I could fix it myself. I'd have to fabricate tools. I actually like the little thing.

def90
September 26, 2016, 08:51
What do you think I could get for it?

I could fix it myself. I'd have to fabricate tools. I actually like the little thing.

It's a Romanian import so you would likely get more for it as is than if you replaced the barrel. Maybe $500+/-? Could get more, it's been a while since I've seen a SAR over there. In the end It is worth more with the problem headspace and original barrel than it is fixed with a US barrel, you will not recoup the time and money you put into it so I wouldn't bother.

95t-100
September 26, 2016, 12:12
Looks like I could buy her a new barrel for $89. Could I take the old barrel off, set, drill and pin a new barrel, and have it properly headspaced? I'd use the old hole in the trunion.

:confused:

I'd still like to borrow or rent a set of headspace gauges. PM me if you can help a brother out.

Thanks!

I have a set of headspace gauges you can borrow, PM sent

STG_58_guy
September 26, 2016, 12:43
I have a set of headspace gauges you can borrow, PM sent

PM responded to.

Welcome, new guy!

justashooter
September 26, 2016, 13:55
wild assed idea for a cheap repair involves soldering shim to face of bolt and if necessary grinding extractor a few thou. if you are talking 10 layers of tape...

def90
September 26, 2016, 18:46
PM responded to.

Welcome, new guy!

A 74 should be headspaced tight enough that it closes on a round and barely closes on the go gauge. None of my 74 kits with the intact barrel stub were able to be closed on a go gauge but would all close on a round.

gunplumber
September 26, 2016, 19:19
A 74 should be headspaced tight enough that it closes on a round and barely closes on the go gauge. None of my 74 kits with the intact barrel stub were able to be closed on a go gauge but would all close on a round.

With all due respect, using a round is foolish both from a mechanical and a safety issue.

First, there should be no live ammo in the shop - period.

Second, if it closes on a GO gauge, it will close on an in-spec cartridge. Closing on a cartridge tells you nothing.

Now there is one exception I've run into in thousands of cuns, and that was a CAI barrel that was good at the shoulder where the gauge indicates, and incompletely machined in the throat. It would close on a gauge but not on a cartridge. But that is a bizarre exception and does not alter the hard rule "no live ammo in shop."

It only takes one moment of inattention to cause serious results. Dunkard died because he ignored this common-sense rule.

STG_58_guy
September 26, 2016, 22:51
A 74 should be headspaced tight enough that it closes on a round and barely closes on the go gauge. None of my 74 kits with the intact barrel stub were able to be closed on a go gauge but would all close on a round.

Good to know. 95t-100 was kind enough to loan a GO and NO-GO but I was thinking that without a FIELD, if it closes on a NO-GO, I can't really tell if the rifle is dangerous. Based on your comment I now think if it closes on a NO-GO, that will be enough evidence to reject the rifle.

STG_58_guy
September 28, 2016, 16:54
A shout out to 95t-100. His loaner gauges arrived today. Thank you sir.

The AK closes easily on the NO-GO. It needs to be fixed.

While it sucks that it is out of spec, I'm glad some newbie didn't end up with it and get injured.

You guys rock. I wish the whole world worked like the files.

95t-100
September 28, 2016, 17:25
You're welcome STG_58_guy, glad I could help you out. Hope you can get it fixed easily!

hkshooter
September 28, 2016, 19:28
Outstanding

STG_58_guy
September 29, 2016, 11:13
Anyone recommend a good AK gunsmith that could do the head space work?

Maybe GP would be willing since it's Romanian built and not CIA/CAI?

Just checking options.

Thanks!

gunplumber
September 29, 2016, 11:59
Thanks, but it will be at least January before I can even consider taking on new work, and then I'm going to have to prioritize what I'll accept - FALs first, AKs second, HKs, third. So eventually, sure, but not anytime soon.

STG_58_guy
September 29, 2016, 12:50
Thanks, but it will be at least January before I can even consider taking on new work, and then I'm going to have to prioritize what I'll accept - FALs first, AKs second, HKs, third. So eventually, sure, but not anytime soon.

I appreciate the response. It's good to be busy.

yellowhand
September 29, 2016, 19:08
I appreciate the response. It's good to be busy.

Hang a red tag on it, stick it into the back of a safe and wait till Jan, not that far off.:wink:

Got three waiting for Mark to clear his decks, go back to building rifles.

Have collected all new, well, all NOS parts over the years for an O3A3 build, with never installed 1943 dated barrel.:D
Just located fully marked lumber, correct for receiver and barrel.

To the patient comes the spoils, or some such non sense.:D

STG_58_guy
July 11, 2017, 02:24
Most tell me OOT head space won't cause the trouble I'm seeing with the primers. Particularly those that actually have holes punched in the them.

I have a member who offered a fair price for the rifle as is.

I won't sell the rifle to an uninformed buyer.

I have a well regarded gunsmith who will fix the head space at a reasonable price. Less than $200. I've never done business with him though.

I really like this rifle. It shoots great except for the ugly primers and occasional smoke in the ejection port. It feels great on the shoulder. Light and nimble.

I have AK-74 guys telling me "it's an AK-74. Headspace is more of a suggestion."

I'm told I should have known better than picking up a CAI. But a bought this from the widow of a friend who needed cash, and I gave her a fair price.

The rifle was built in Bulgaria, not by Century.

I've shot several brands and loads including milsurp and get the same problem.

What else could cause those bulged and punctured primers? Guys are telling me fixing head space will solve nothing. Guys I trust far less than you fellows, but who know way more than I do about AKs.

What else could be causing this?

What should I do?

Has anybody blown up an AK-74 due to oversized head space? It is out quite a bit.

I'm stuck. Please advise.

I wish I could just pick up a bolt with lugs that are .008 thicker.