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ByrnieMac
July 05, 2016, 21:53
I have a Sig Sauer 1911 Blackwater edition (before they got in all that trouble and Sig turned it into the "Tac Ops" model)...

Well, to make a long story short, I am going to Larry Vickers 1911 pistolsmithing course in October and suffice to say that it isn't cheap. Between the cost of the class and the cost of the parts to bring... Let's just say my shopping cart at Brownells right now makes me nauseous ...

To help ease the expense, I am thinking about selling my beloved Blackwater 1911. It's the best shooting handgun I've ever had and I am very good with it. I can get past the sentiment of it all, but I am wondering if this thing might actually be worth some real money later on down the line, or do you guys think it is going to turn into one of those 'Rare doesn't mean valuable' situations?

Should I hold on to it?

chino*74
July 05, 2016, 22:22
Ur decision, if U can afford to keep it then keep it if it is the pistol U shoot best. I think it will probably go up in value but I am not a Sig expert.

pl521
July 05, 2016, 22:34
Sell it. The custom 1911 you make from the Vickers 1911 gunsmithing class will be a nicer keeper.

Right Side Up
July 06, 2016, 00:42
I agree with pl521, get what you can for it. What is the Blackwater name worth anyway? The gun you build with your own two hands will be worth more to you.

ByrnieMac
July 06, 2016, 17:54
That's pretty much my train of thought with this. Thanks guys!

cherenkov22
July 06, 2016, 19:21
I'm going against the grain on the herd on this one - I say the Blackwater name has a bit of notoriaty, the gun was abruptly discontinued (at least by that name) , and around in limited numbers, which is a formula for future collect ability. The historical perspective of negativity of Blackwater has sort of faded with the rise of insurgents in Iraq.

pl521
July 06, 2016, 19:59
Cherenkov22 has a valid point. From a collectability perspective, your Sig 1911 Blackwater will be worth more in the future to a collector due to its rarity. The custom 1911 you build will not be command the same premium unless you become one of the best and respected 1911 gunsmith around.

BUFF
July 06, 2016, 23:40
What sort of 1911 will you be building in Vickers' class? The one you have may be a lot nicer than the one you build there.

Right Side Up
July 07, 2016, 01:56
A Blackwater 1911 wily ONLY have appeal to a mall ninja. Period.

hueyville
July 07, 2016, 10:47
My plan is to buy a SIG 1911 Tacops with 5.5" threaded barrel tomorrow as a suppressor host. I would keep the pistol and finance the pistol smith course some other way. You do realize after taking the course you will be spending $2,000 plus on tools to be able to use the new knowledge. All the jigs, slide tightening fixtures, sear jig and even little stuff like to round rear of frame for beavertail grip safeties is going to eat your lunch.

Took Jim Stroh's (Alpha Precision) now retired but one of the finest pistol smith's ever to live basic and intermediate course a long time ago. What I spent on class, missed work and tooling could have purchased a pile of custom 1911's. Unless intend on making a business out of it (get quote on liability insurance first or hide behind an LLC and pray) it's nice knowledge to have but unless build regularly, the skills get rusty with time. Not trying to talk you out of the class, just not selling your SIG unless has low round count, threaded barrel and sell it to me for dirt cheap.

When looked at the Tacops TB last week they didn't tell me were going to be closed Saturday through Thursday or would have gotten that day. Store was busy and so was I. Really want to screw my new suppressor on and don't want to mess with any of my nice pistols as have all dead solid perfect and out of five inch guns can build on. When totaled up parts to build from scratch the SIG is less than the parts bill and don't have to find all my tools, fiddle with building for a week just to get diverted by work and watch parts gather dust when could be sending the 200 grain Gold Dots have loaded up down range now, actually about 30 minutes after they open tomorrow.

ByrnieMac
July 07, 2016, 14:18
Fair points. I should state that this 1911 is not in NIB. It has some rub marks from where it was my carry gun for a while, a couple minor scratches here and there, and as far as round count goes, I guess it all depends on perspective and what one considers "low". The round count is probably between 800-1000. This gun has been enjoyed, has been run hot, and properly maintained... treated as a firearm should.

That being said, it still is a fantastic-looking gun that is about as accurate as a pistol shooter could hope for. I only shot it twice with the Blackwater rosewood grips before stashing them away, and threw on a set of Ergo XTR grips. Later I found out that Sig actually sells the TacOps model with Ergo XTR grips.... Funny coincidence.

But when it comes down to it, this wasn't a sidearm used by Blackwater, and I don't think the value will really takeoff until Blackwater is seen in a nostalgia akin to that of the Pinktertons.

The gun I build with Mr. Vickers is just the start. I have always wanted to make 1911's and already have a pile of friends waiting to send me parts for 1911's and have theirs built, so there is a good amount of practice to be had after the class. I don't plan on selling this gun that I make in October, nor do I expect it to be valued at anything special (except to me)

And buddy, you aren't kidding about the cost for everything. I still have about $2200 in supplies to get before I go...

I greatly value the input here, but I believe I will be posting it up for sale once I locate the 4th magazine! Ha!

hueyville
July 07, 2016, 18:10
Threaded barrel? Just Googled it and didn't look like the Blackwater 1911's got threads. Seems like they would have mandated them. Had two SIG 2022's in 40 Smith and just purchased a third with factory threaded barrel and a 9mm threaded. When the Feds decided to mess with Trusts went nuts and got one of everything might need and two of cans could justify a need for. LGS owner probably going to retire off me and friends. Told one friend about new rules, set up Trust that day and purchased nine cans at same time. His wife kind of flipped, especially when started ordering guns to fit the cans like I did.

Remember for friends will still have to pony up for an FFL. I was all set to do a real FFL gunsmith service but due to paranoia do the full product liability insurance on all businesses. When found out was $2,000 month for gunsmith insurance decided to just build personal guns. Now have to keep buying vaults to put all the guns I build in. From late 80's through Y2K built fair number custom 1911's, added to pile of stock pistols it got stupid. Goal was to own 45 1911 45's. When surpassed that goal had to find another hobby. Funny thing is after two classes saw how good Jim was and kept buying pistols from him. If built a gun per week would have taken a decade to approach his skill level.

At least pistols take less vault space than rifles but can build AR's super cheap and feel if politics play out way expect and "had" to sell some of my "personal" guns AR's will be best return on investment. Really should pull an five inch gun already own and fit a threaded barrel already own but all are either collectible or tuned perfectly. Going to use the Tacops for one purpose only, hold up a round titanium tube. Have leathersmith going to craft a shoulder rig and use for Sunday church pistol. About 14 hours from screwing the can on the Tacops.... Can you tell am a spoiled instant gratification American swine?

raubvogel
July 07, 2016, 19:11
I have to agree with hueyville. How long do you think it will take for you to just recoup the cost of the class if you go into gunsmithing? Or do you are doing that because you want to? If the latter, well, make sure you have enough disposable income so you can write this class off as hobby.

With that said, I read the mentality of the new generation is not about owning things but owning experiences. If you want to be that way, enjoy the experiences you had with the blackwater and then move on. Will it worth more in the future? As the guy with the DeLorean, not me.

hueyville
July 08, 2016, 15:19
Purchased the SIG Tacops TB after lunch and now have first 200 rounds through it. At 30 feet it put first 100 rounds into a 2.5" circle with two flyers about a half inch left of ragged 98 round hole. Would have been tighter but after about 70 rounds had a little shooters fatigue set in due to not taking any breaks, already had 100 rounds in McCormick 10 round Power Mags.

Then shot 30 rounds at 40 feet, 30 rounds at 50 feet and 30 rounds at 60 feet. 10 rounds of each 30 shot string were shot with a 7/10 to 9/10 second cadence. About as fast as I can fire a non-compensated major power factor pistol.

Last ten turned off all the lights, stepped up to the 30 foot line and let fly in near total darkness. Lined up the glowing dots on the dark gaping hole in center of target best I could and let fly. After all that every round would have easily grouped into an average persons head. Went by to pick up my can but was not the 45 caliber unit the papers cleared on, was the 40 Smith can. Will shoot it (SIG 2022) tomorrow along with finish breaking in the Tacops TB.

If like your Blackwater, keep it. Going to need to tune some 1911's after the class anyway. Bet with a little work this Tacops will be slick as cat crap on ice.

ByrnieMac
July 08, 2016, 15:35
Unfortunately there is no threaded barrel. The Blackwater edition 1911's didn't come with TBs. I considered getting a threaded barrel a couple years ago but never did it.

My goal of going to the class isn't to start marketing myself as a 1911 gumsmith afterwards, but to widen my own personal skill set. Any person capable of following LEGO directions can build a reliably functional AR. Any person with a press and some rivet jaws can build an AK. Anyone who can afford or can borrow the necessary tools can screw together a frankenFAL. I want to be able to disappear to my shop and eventually produce a high quality and finely tuned 1911. While I am confident in my tooling abilities, I am hoping this class will jump me ahead in the learning curve. I know it will take me several pistols to really start getting the hang of it, I just want to start out right.

As far as recouping the expense... maybe in time but that is not something worried about. Just need to cover the overhead costs.

hueyville
July 08, 2016, 21:09
I missed two weeks of work for two 1911 builders courses and never used what learned for money. Was strictly for personal satisfaction. Been slowly upgrading and rebuilding pistols originally built in late 80's and through the 90's. Like the Smith & Alexander main spring housing/mag well, using lots of EGW titanium internals mixed with Cylinder & Slide parts. Tightening up slides on pistols with 10,000 to 25,000 plus rounds, fitting snug on frames, replacing wear parts, upgrading from Miami Vice & 80's IPSC to modern Limited and Unlimited race gun standards.

Hopefully will be my last big 1911 fling and last me till can't hold them up anymore. Soon as find my metal checkering files going to finish up some I rushed then Cerakote them for a slick new finish. Getting the mechanics and insides worked out running way I want and then on to something else.

When you said had shot 800 to 1,000 rounds through the Blackwater I was thinking barely broken in. Carried the new SIG to side job tonight but had a trusty Commander in case it left me hating life. 200 rounds is not trustworthy though not a single failure to feed fire or extract. When have 500 rounds of mixed types ammo with zero issues call a pistol ready for carry. Plan to get another 200 through the SIG tomorrow with some of my preferred defensive loads and if continues like today will call it a safe primary.

Only thing I don't like is the picatinny rail. If your Blackwater didn't have the darn rail would already have sent a PM. Never have come up with any gadgets want to bolt to a pistol and it slows the draw dragging on leather. Guess will have to try it with one of the newer plastic or carbon fiber holsters. So much leather in the pile and like leather so will have to ponder that one. Carry my 2022's in plastic paddles. Enjoy the class, you have exactly right mindset, just turn out one or two jewels and it's worth the cost.

As to screwing together Leggo's, tuning the AR 10's in 6XC for long distance work is more than screwing parts together. Past 600 yards finding just the right torque settings on every fastener becomes a labor of love or frustration. Has to be happy for good barrel harmonics.

ByrnieMac
July 10, 2016, 22:22
I missed two weeks of work for two 1911 builders courses and never used what learned for money. Was strictly for personal satisfaction. Been slowly upgrading and rebuilding pistols originally built in late 80's and through the 90's. Like the Smith & Alexander main spring housing/mag well, using lots of EGW titanium internals mixed with Cylinder & Slide parts. Tightening up slides on pistols with 10,000 to 25,000 plus rounds, fitting snug on frames, replacing wear parts, upgrading from Miami Vice & 80's IPSC to modern Limited and Unlimited race gun standards.

Hopefully will be my last big 1911 fling and last me till can't hold them up anymore. Soon as find my metal checkering files going to finish up some I rushed then Cerakote them for a slick new finish. Getting the mechanics and insides worked out running way I want and then on to something else.

When you said had shot 800 to 1,000 rounds through the Blackwater I was thinking barely broken in. Carried the new SIG to side job tonight but had a trusty Commander in case it left me hating life. 200 rounds is not trustworthy though not a single failure to feed fire or extract. When have 500 rounds of mixed types ammo with zero issues call a pistol ready for carry. Plan to get another 200 through the SIG tomorrow with some of my preferred defensive loads and if continues like today will call it a safe primary.

Only thing I don't like is the picatinny rail. If your Blackwater didn't have the darn rail would already have sent a PM. Never have come up with any gadgets want to bolt to a pistol and it slows the draw dragging on leather. Guess will have to try it with one of the newer plastic or carbon fiber holsters. So much leather in the pile and like leather so will have to ponder that one. Carry my 2022's in plastic paddles. Enjoy the class, you have exactly right mindset, just turn out one or two jewels and it's worth the cost.

As to screwing together Leggo's, tuning the AR 10's in 6XC for long distance work is more than screwing parts together. Past 600 yards finding just the right torque settings on every fastener becomes a labor of love or frustration. Has to be happy for good barrel harmonics.

Yeah man I'm with you 100%. The accessory rail bugs me. The new one will be the classic 1911 profile. I liked the rail when I first got it, but didn't like having a TLR light on it, and the only holster I could find for a 1911+flashlight was a safari land leg rig.... Can't exactly edc that around NC and not look like a total asshole.

And you are absolutely right about the high-end ar-10's. I was talking about a box of parts from DSA or PSA and making sure you don't spill your beer while installing the LPK (sorry GP)

Bug Tussell
July 11, 2016, 16:59
If you ain't one, then having that kind of stuff marked on anything screams wannabe.

I'd sell it.

Now, if I can find one that says "Satisfaction Guaranteed" I'd grab it...

hueyville
July 11, 2016, 18:50
If you ain't one, then having that kind of stuff marked on anything screams wannabe.

I'd sell it.

Now, if I can find one that says "Satisfaction Guaranteed" I'd grab it...

"Satisfaction Guaranteed"? Isn't that the site where all the 19 year old fat girls post? Hhmmm, I mean Facebook.

Since I am not a tactical operator do I have to return my SIG Tacops? It was the only pistol in the case with a threaded barrel, name or logo means squat to me if it works. I see no issue with having a Blackwater if not a member of the club. Especially since they don't exist anymore thus nobody would be qualified to own one without having it scrubbed.

Lots of folks wear UGA or Alabama football shirts that never played on the team. Got a Coca-Cola t-shirt and never worked for them except to swap batteries in the server room. Do I have to burn my shirt? ;-)

Around here the people that tickle me are the 220 pound, 4' 8" females and 320 pound 5'7" males who can't form a sentence much less use blinkers due to swallowing a Big Mac while driving. All in red Tahoe's or F150's plus 8" lift kit with Georgia Bulldog plates front and rear, magnetic bulldog faces on the side and at least three Georgia Bulldog decals on rear windshield of which the majority couldn't even find the campus without entering the address from Google search into a GPS. Never understood the rabid sports fan mentality people have to a school they never attended. Know people that will mope for a week if Georgia loses a football game but couldn't tell you if they have a track or swim team on a bet.

Let folks have their pistols dressed up to suit. I like all the people that immediately put the Glock sticker on their ride. Must come in the box, I wouldn't know, never owned one. That said, if I need a quick throw down know exactly who's truck window to put a brick through. Last thing I will ever have is a decal telling the world there are firearms in my truck.

Some say I post too much here but really, out of the hundred or so regulars, only one or two live close enough to me to matter and Stimpson has cooler toys than I from what seen scattered on the forum. He doesn't need my stuff nor want to swap rounds. Also one of the reasons still drive the oldest and ugliest truck I own as my daily driver, no way could a 1993 Dakota with peeling paint, big rust spots, huge tacky antenna have anything more valuable than a Cobra C.B. radio and a pawn shop Rossi under the seat.

Why I hang around here, might be the least visited discussion group on the net but the collective knowledge is huge. Mention FN around my neck of the woods and people assume your discussing AR 15's. Bet there are 1,000 people viewing TheHighRoad dot com for every user in FALFiles currently and if ask a question here are 100 times more likely to get a better answer on almost any subject. Soon as someone figures out how to run me off this will be a class act again now that "he who is not to be discussed" is gone.

ByrnieMac
July 12, 2016, 00:16
If you ain't one, then having that kind of stuff marked on anything screams wannabe.

I'd sell it.

Now, if I can find one that says "Satisfaction Guaranteed" I'd grab it...

Well hell, Bug.. I'll scribble"Satisfaction Guaranteed" on it for ya! I'll be in ABQ next week, you can pick it up in person!

ByrnieMac
July 13, 2016, 20:03
Well gentlemen I thank you all for your input. However after much deliberation, I have decided to spare this incredible expense, and build my 1911's later down the road. I have been working on building my NRA highpower service rifle for some time now. And instead of selling one of my favorite guns when I don't really want to, I am going to finish my rifle and go to a match or two. All for less than half the cost of the smithing class..

scoose
July 13, 2016, 21:34
A Blackwater 1911 wily ONLY have appeal to a mall ninja. Period.


:lolsign:

I had to look up "mall ninja" I have to get out more!!

Too damn funny

W.E.G.
July 13, 2016, 21:50
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/humor/MallNinja.jpg

scoose
July 13, 2016, 21:52
^^THIS^^

hueyville
July 15, 2016, 18:00
Well gentlemen I thank you all for your input. However after much deliberation, I have decided to spare this incredible expense, and build my 1911's later down the road. I have been working on building my NRA highpower service rifle for some time now. And instead of selling one of my favorite guns when I don't really want to, I am going to finish my rifle and go to a match or two. All for less than half the cost of the smithing class..

Some Chinese tools and uTube videos will be a 1911 smith by fall. Really, it is an art, have taken builders classes under former Pistol Smith's Guild smith of the year and highly regarded by most of his peers. Great fun but unless follow up with building regularly can lose your touch very quickly. Tightening a slide is easy to go too far and end up in a mess. Can't count the number of sears went just a tad too far and were toast. Have crossed the threshold of near perfect many times. Building nice pistols is first a lesson in mechanics and tolerances, then it moves to art form.

Building decent pistols is not that hard if start with a good fame and slide that fit. If have to fit the slide to the frame to get tight as a tick but doesn't bind is something must gain a feel for. If don't do regularly may as well be watching uTube combined with trial and error. Go find a name brand but worn 1911. Rip it down to bare frame and slide then start work. Fit slide to frame, set angle of breach face and polish, radius rear of frame for proper beavertail, metal checkering, etc and fit internals. Get it all done refit some parts due to thickness of finish and done.

Going to use hard chrome on frame and melonite on slide of one pistol working on now and if like, probably do some others same way. Been working on swapping internals and trying to get perfect fit and trigger pull desired. Have three old race guns converting to carry and trying to get trigger pull exactly the same along with matching control parts. Of three actively working on, one is at 3.75 pound trigger, one at 3.95 last at 4.15. Want all three at 3.75 so break over exactly same. Tried several combinations of parts and now have three Wilson Bulletproof Skeletonized Ultralight hammers to install. Two pistols have the Wilson Deluxe Commander hammer which are going to migrate to a couple of 3.5" concealment pistols.

All have the EGW extended titanium hammer struts and mainspring caps with Wilson full power main springs for reliable ignition and fast lock time. Also have a bag full of Wilson titanium firing pins. After using the new SIG Tacops all are getting the SIG safety as being built as carry guns not competition rigs. Running four different triggers presently but am leaning toward a Wilson as has the least creep of all which is hardest part for me to adjust. Pull weight and travel are easy adjustments. Other parts seem to be floating to top of list as order different stuff, install and run for testing. When project is done will probably have enough parts to build two or three additional pistols out of test parts that don't quite make the cut for current project.

Goal is a 5.5" compensated, 5" bull barrel and Commander all with exact same controls and 3.75 pound trigger pulls for carry guns. Also want an Officers model with carry comp, 3.5" bushingless bull barrel and the SIG Tacops all at four pound trigger pull with same safety. Will end up with six varied carry guns that have same fit in hand, safety and overall ergonomics. Spread my shooting load out between the group and other than springs should never have to rebuild a single stack carry pistol. Now, won't be Alpha Precision, Bill Wilson or other top name smith name and every detail perfect but will run 100% reliable, shoot straight and look good.

That is the beauty of doing it yourself. Can work out combination of parts that is tailored to fit your hand perfectly without breaking the bank ordering a stack of $3,000 plus pistols. Can leave the collectible and true name brand custom's in vault for most part and have all the shooters could want in about any configuration. When done just have to find a couple of frames to build with the trial parts and also end up with spare parts box restocked.