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mountainman
February 21, 2016, 17:11
I Gots me one of dems wheeler Inguneering barrels vises. I tried using everything from sand to emory cloth to plumbers solder with rosin core, but couldn't get that barrel to stop from rotating in the vise. Finally I tightened that thing so bad that the oak bushing just cracked. I was thinking of making something out of aluminum, but need to know what is the optimal diameter for that bushing on a .220 swift rem 700 barrel. I was thinking of making it out of aluminum and spraying the inside with something like flex seal. I just need to know what is the optimal bore? Thanks for the help.

gordonm1
February 21, 2016, 19:41
I have a wheeler I bought from Midway for my three FALs. Same issues. I think there were lead shims involved which deformed heavily. I got some rosin and with the powdered rosin crystals and broken wood I finally got my toughest barrel on. That wasn't that much torque either but I wasn't measuring the torque.

I don't have any easy fix. I'd like to learn on your thread.

yovinny
February 21, 2016, 20:25
The optimal bore size for barrel blocks for you'r 220 swift barrel is without any doubt 1.5"

Do I win anything :|

ArtBanks
February 22, 2016, 09:13
I went through the same thing years ago. Mashed oak blocks and still not tight enough. Ended up going for the Brownells with steel inserts for each rifle I deal with. Worth every penny. Now , a little dusting of resin and you are ready to go.

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/nf1e/IMG_0029_zpsbe13e61a.jpg (http://s1180.photobucket.com/user/nf1e/media/IMG_0029_zpsbe13e61a.jpg.html)

Semper Fi
Art

mountainman
February 22, 2016, 18:47
Bro, you get my respect and adoration. Thanks Vinny. 1.5" it will be made out of a aluminum block and 2X as thick as the metal on the vise and coated with thin rubber on the inside.

John Crusher
February 22, 2016, 19:09
I use linotype to take up the slack when I barrel a receiver.
If it turns any it leaves an easy to remove mark and still has room to tighten.
I've probably not put on as many barrels as some, but more than others from 98Ks to M14s.

mountainman
February 22, 2016, 19:31
Is the taper at the breech end butted up to the recvr 4 degrees? I kinda want to grab it there.

easttex
February 22, 2016, 21:49
I loaned a Wheeler vise to a gunsmith friend who needed a vise and quickly and had his packed away. He ended up making aluminum bushings to get the barrel of my Yugo Mauser.

Then he milled some giant steel blocks and made a new vise for himself. (Got tired of looking for the other one...)

yovinny
February 23, 2016, 08:50
Personally, I dont care for much of anything aluminum on a vise.
Mine is all 1018 steel and I use brass, copper and lead shims.
The brass & copper are split scraps of tubing/piping. The lead from salvaged sheeting. For the piece that touches the barrel, I always use thin brass sheet. It's thin, maybe .010" and I get it cheap in the hobby supply.
Any slippage produces marking, but with brass, a little oil and 0000 steel wool usually cleans it right up.

Cheers, YV

gunplumber
February 23, 2016, 09:00
The thickest AR-15 aluminum barrel clamps you can find and 20 ton press to hold in place. Doesn't need to be a perfect fit.

I had some made back in the day for the FAL, but use them for just about everything.

The only one I had trouble with was a 91/30 that broke free around 525 ft pounds with a 6' breaker bar. I thought the press was going to fail.

yovinny
February 23, 2016, 11:18
Impact shock is your friend :wink:

I find a 4lb hammer applied to the end of the 2' piece of 1" square stock that makes the handle on my action wrench, usually much better than a 6' pipe.

gunplumber
February 23, 2016, 11:46
Agreed. But on the Nagant, I wanted to know when it would break. FALs, I have a 4' bar on an 18" wrench and I hold it with both hands in the middle, kindof hop up and bring my svelte 225 pounds down on it. Works most of the time. The nagant, after breaking free, hand tightened to 90 degrees short of TDC. I still do not understand why they thought that necessary. Even 45 degrees would have been 2-1/2 to 3 x a FAL.

notfrommt
February 23, 2016, 11:55
Does the 91/30 have an ACME thread? I've never seen one apart.

gunplumber
February 23, 2016, 13:21
No, but it might be 55 degree Witworth, or some other Russian Imperial standard. I was really surprised that there are no plain-jane aftermarket barrels for it. I'd have expected to see something - maybe with a short chamber for finish reaming, but I found nothing in the "economy" range.

ftierson
February 23, 2016, 13:30
Haven't had the same problem with Mosins (although they usually are tight), but I've had to use cheater bars on some of the Imbel FAL barrels to break the flash suppressor free (grab the barrel right in front of the FS, to prevent gain twist rifling in the barrel... :) ).

Forrest

mountainman
February 23, 2016, 16:03
Impact shock is your friend :wink:

I find a 4lb hammer applied to the end of the 2' piece of 1" square stock that makes the handle on my action wrench, usually much better than a 6' pipe.

I forgot to mention that I was hammering the end of the action wrench handle with a hammer in hopes that would help.

mountainman
February 23, 2016, 16:06
Mark, then let me ask you this question. How far from the recvrs edge on the barrel would you be willing to vise the barrel? With a sporter or featherweight barrel, how far would be willing to go without any concern that you might bend the barrel? On the HB, I have no such concerns
Thanks

yovinny
February 23, 2016, 16:09
I've never pulled a mosin apart myself,,Nor a Brit Enfield.
Never really seem much available for them,,, even when they were dirt.
I mostly played with different mausers, remmys and a couple 03's.
And of course any military semi stuff I could gets my paws on :)

Haven't had the same problem with Mosins (although they usually are tight), but I've had to use cheater bars on some of the Imbel FAL barrels to break the flash suppressor free (grab the barrel right in front of the FS, to prevent gain twist rifling in the barrel... :) ).

Forrest

Forrest gets this in my best Brooklyn Guinea :tongue:

WHAT,,,!!!,,,YOU no lika da gain twist ???
NO,,NO,,It's OK,,,a moch bett-er-er,,, Hey,Forgetaboutit,,It makess it a tighterer,anna moch bett-er-er.............
Izza beena droppeda once,,,, but it Shootsa very nice :biggrin:

Cheers, YV

gunplumber
February 23, 2016, 16:14
Mark, then let me ask you this question. How far from the recvrs edge on the barrel would you be willing to vise the barrel? With a sporter or featherweight barrel, how far would be willing to go without any concern that you might bend the barrel? On the HB, I have no such concerns
Thanks

Therein is the challenge with Nagants - the tapered shoulder makes fixturing it challenging.

One should get as close to the shoulder as possible. If you're dealing with a pencil-weight barrel and can't get right up to the shoulder, you may have to hog out a custom block. I prever to use a square block, but I have a (Midway?) clamp for round ones as well. I also picked up a bunch of used barrel fixtures (split rings) turned out of some material that looks like Bakelite.

For the wrench, on the receiver, I used one originally made for an enfield and opened up the lug area a little. It probably won't fit an Enfield anymore, but I never used it on an Enfield before, so I didn't think I was losing out.


If I do another Nagant, I'm going to have to take a piece of aluminum, chuck it in the lathe, and match the taper as much as possible, then slit it in half. I hate doing tapers, internal or external. This last one, the barrel was already bent, which was why I was swapping it. Also, it was for a buddy, so the fact that we put $600 labor and parts into a $100 rifle, didn't really matter. He did 2 days of sandblasting for me.

mountainman
February 23, 2016, 18:08
Also, it was for a buddy, so the fact that we put $600 labor and parts into a $100 rifle, didn't really matter. He did 2 days of sandblasting for me.

It seems like that is where I am at with everything I take on. If I am making anything over $10 an hour I feel like I am cheating someone.

It looks like I will have to chuck up that barrel, pick up that taper with the compound and make a set of tapered blocks.

On a side note, would you be willing to mount your vise to your milling machine table?

gunplumber
February 23, 2016, 18:41
On a side note, would you be willing to mount your vise to your milling machine table?

Hell no!

I'm not a machinist, but I don't think the cross-feed screw was designed for lateral torque. I'm not risking that!

In watching You Tube videos for Nagant barrels, I saw one guy who had a steel pole cemented into the ground. I'm going to guess 4x4 box steel, maybe 6' high. He mounted his barrel clamps vertically to that. Gave him more room for the long breaker bar, I guess. But it looked quite practical. Especially if it's mounted outside - it's not like it's used every day.

I have 3x5' heavy steel table (formerly my welding table) that I mount my cut-down shop presses, arbor presses, a barrel vise (usually removed), and a Wilton vise. The 20 ton is on the floor.

gunplumber
February 23, 2016, 18:50
It seems like that is where I am at with everything I take on. If I am making anything over $10 an hour I feel like I am cheating someone.

Brad and I are happy to exploit that.

And if it's a hobby, maybe that's not bad. But as a business? I pay my daughter $10/hr to sandblast and clean. Which means I have to make at least double that, just to break-even. And breaking-even is for hobbies, not a business.

mountainman
February 23, 2016, 20:20
Hell no!

I'm not a machinist, but I don't think the cross-feed screw was designed for lateral torque. I'm not risking that!

In watching You Tube videos for Nagant barrels, I saw one guy who had a steel pole cemented into the ground. I'm going to guess 4x4 box steel, maybe 6' high. He mounted his barrel clamps vertically to that. Gave him more room for the long breaker bar, I guess. But it looked quite practical. Especially if it's mounted outside - it's not like it's used every day.

I have 3x5' heavy steel table (formerly my welding table) that I mount my cut-down shop presses, arbor presses, a barrel vise (usually removed), and a Wilton vise. The 20 ton is on the floor.

got access to a table made of two phone poles sunk into the ground ( about 3' below dirt) spanned by a railroad tie. Problem is its 1/2 hr drive away from the house where the mill is at. So I need to cram all the tools into the car drive over there and find out I didn't bring all the necessary tools. I too am reluctant to mount vise to my mill.

Regarding the making parts for you and brad, if there is enough work, I'd get ballscrews and a CNC package for my lathe and man could that thing sing. Being able to do backtapers on long slender parts would knock off 1/2 the time it takes me to make things.

Jaxxas
February 23, 2016, 22:21
Thought the whole issue of hobbyist versus business was interesting but didn't want to much up the thread so I started my own.


http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4193449#post4193449

yovinny
February 25, 2016, 08:10
I forgot to mention that I was hammering the end of the action wrench handle with a hammer in hopes that would help.

Did you hit it with the torch ?

If were still talking remmy's here, the newer ones are assembled with a thread locking compound of some kind.
A little heat to soften that up makes a complete world of difference.

Get everything completely tightened up and ready to go. Take your hand torch (propane or mapp) and shoot it right into the chamber/barrel face for like 5-6 seconds. NO longer than that and dont use a real torch, just a 'blow torch'.
Do not rush,,,Let that heat soak in good, for like a full minute.
Then grab your 5lb hammer and hit that thing like it owes you money.

Nobody appreciates my humor anymore ? :sad:

Cheers, YV

mountainman
February 25, 2016, 16:44
Did you hit it with the torch ?

If were still talking remmy's here, the newer ones are assembled with a thread locking compound of some kind.
A little heat to soften that up makes a complete world of difference.

Get everything completely tightened up and ready to go. Take your hand torch (propane or mapp) and shoot it right into the chamber/barrel face for like 5-6 seconds. NO longer than that and dont use a real torch, just a 'blow torch'.
Do not rush,,,Let that heat soak in good, for like a full minute.
Then grab your 5lb hammer and hit that thing like it owes you money.

Nobody appreciates my humor anymore ? :sad:

Cheers, YV

I thought something felt unnatural. I am also working on tapered vise blocks made of aluminum.