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View Full Version : HORRIBLE EXPERINCE WITH DSA... TWICE


Tigerclaw-x
December 12, 2015, 13:09
Hi. Long time ago I got an Century Arms POST BAN L1A1 with pencil barrel and ugly bugly fugly stock. So I got me an Israeli barrel from DSA few years back, it was laying in a closet since I didn't have money for the labor. When I was buying it they said "No problem, we will install it for $250". So I got the money and went to DSA to ask them to install it. I live not far from Barrington, so I pretty much drove to their store.
a) The guys in store were VERY arrogant and conceited. As if they, the Gods have came down from heaven to talk to insignificant mortal and they are doing me a favor.
b) They told me that it is IMPOSSIBLE to install the barrel into that receiver (NOT what they told me when I was buying barrel few years back). When I mentioned it the guy on sales floor said "I can't be responsible for what other people tell you".
c) He proceeded to HARD PRESSURE me into buying one of their fals ($1400). Telling me that if I sell my "Century Junk" on gunbroker maybe I get $600 for it. WHen I told him that it was built on Imbel Receivers he said "DSA receivers are MUCH better". When I asked about chrome lining on DSA barrels he said that "Chrome lining affects barrel accuracy so we don't chrome line" (which is BULLSHIT, a total and utter bullshit, considering Wehrmach and SOviet snipers had chrome lined barrels in their rifles - didn't seem to affect them). When I asked him about melonite/nitrite coating he said "Melonite affects accuracy, so we do not melonite" - WHICH IS AN EVEN BIGGER BULLSHIT. So the guy is either ignorant or he thinks that I am ignorant.
d) I walked out of there and sent the rifle to Fairfax Firearms Repair. Got it back with barrel installed. (So much for "It can't be done). I do wanna say THANK YOU to FAIRFAX FIREARMS REPAIR AND ENDORSE THEM.

This gets better. Few days later I called them, not their store in barrington but the main number and asked about their Medium contour barrel (I figrued I want another upper). The guy who picked up the phone was: a) VERY RUDE AND ARROGANT. b) HAD NO IDEA how thick the Medium Contour barrel is. c) Had NO idea how heavy it is. d) Also told me that "Melonite and Chrome lining, degrade the rifle accuracy without giving ANY benefits to longevity of the barrel". What a total and utter garbage!!!

To sum it up. DSA arms have IGNORANT and ARROGANT reps. They are ONLY interested in hard pressure to sell their own items. They have NO idea about specs of the items that they sell.
NEVER DEALING WITH DSA AGAIN.

J. Armstrong
December 12, 2015, 13:55
For every great employee like R1Shooter, DSA seems to have a couple of schmucks waiting in the wings :rolleyes:

However, strictly speaking, chrome lining CAN have a deleterious on accuracy. Using a 65 year old reference or a Combloc reference is not really pertinent to current standards.

Of course the Israeli barrel can be installed on an Imbel receiver, but the barrel threads are very slightly different and will need to be chased with a 1"x16 tpi die first.

Send it to Randy Kline ( member Sledgehammer ). High quality work, done at fair prices and with good turnaround.

Right Side Up
December 12, 2015, 14:40
For what it's worth, a battle rifle will still shoot very accurately with a chrome lined barrel. I have a few Colt AR'2 that do it.

TheShoote
December 12, 2015, 16:00
Damn, well DSA can go pound shit up there ass as far as I'm considered. I won't own a DSA rifle far to many junk cast parts on them. Not to mention they are way the hell over priced.
I'll keep all my preban rifles with chrome lined barrels Thank you very much.

RG Coburn
December 12, 2015, 17:55
Mosin Nagants and K98s didn't have chromed bores. To my knowledge,the only WWII issued rifles with chromed bores were Jap Arisakas. But yeah,it doesn't hurt accuracy.I prefer chromed bores.

gunplumber
December 12, 2015, 18:04
It absolutely has a negative affect on accuracy. Any plating does. A very slight one, that is. But it has a huge benefit in anti-corrosion, which easily outweighs the slight potential accuracy loss. Especially under hostile environmental conditions where meticulous cleaning is impracticable. Heck, on guadfalcanal, guns were deadlined because a mudwasp would build a nest in the bore and a fired round would blow up the barrel.

Funny - I don't have to spend an hour machining on an IMBEL to get to the start point, as I do when building on a current production DSA.

Rule of thumb. Assume anything DSA tells you is bullshit.

Mebsuta
December 12, 2015, 18:27
None of the FAL kits or rifels I have owned had chrome-lined bores. The Imbel stuff had chome-lined chambers.

meltblown
December 12, 2015, 18:28
So were there FALs in Guadfalcanal?:uhoh:

Tigerclaw-x
December 12, 2015, 18:49
I have Mosin Nagant Rifle (not M44 carbine) - CHROME LINED.
I have K98 - Chrome lined
I got Finnish Mosin M39 - Chrome lined.
Got SMLE - Chrome lined.

I have Israeli barrel on my FAL- Chrome lined.
Argentine and L1A1 FALs are Chrome lined.

As far as accuracy for chrome lining. Germans, Swiss, Italians and Austrians - makers of SOME OF THE BEST firearms chrome line their rifles (AUG, G36 AR70/90 ARX-160). They are CHROME LINED nobody complained about accuracy of those rifles. Chrome lining should be done right - then it won't affect accuracy. Most US gun manufacturers are greedy cheapskates, so they lie about "chrome lining affects accuracy" because they are too cheap to get good chrome lining process going. SVD are chrome lined. Nobody ever complained that (with right ammo) they are not accurate. M14 are chrome lined (REAL M14, not cheap Springfield armory stuff), nobody complains about their accuracy.
In any case DSA arms guys have NO idea what they are talking about, or they are liars. Once again. KUDOS to FAIRFAX FIREARMS REPAIR.

Mebsuta
December 12, 2015, 18:55
Mosin Nagants and K98s didn't have chromed bores.

I agree.

gunplumber
December 12, 2015, 19:14
None of the FAL kits or rifels I have owned had chrome-lined bores. The Imbel stuff had chome-lined chambers.

I've never seen an IMBEL that wasn't chrome lined.

Some StGs had chrome chambers.

G1s were mostly not, which explains why they had such corroded barrels. A few with Cr on the bayonet mount were chrome lined.

Very early ausie barrels were not, but everything from 1956? forward was, as were the UK.

gunplumber
December 12, 2015, 19:16
So were there FALs in Guadfalcanal?:uhoh:

Not FALs. 03A3s and garands and BARs (not chrome lined). Ordnance Up Front. Great book on keeping guns running in the jungle. And why a chromed bore is worth the minuscule derogation in accuracy.

garandguy10
December 12, 2015, 20:06
Chrome lining also helps prevent throat erosion, and aids chamber extraction at least until the chrome lining starts to de-laminate and chip away.

jm7
December 12, 2015, 20:56
Most Japanese T99s have chrome lined bores. Never seen a 91/30 or a k98 with a chrome lined bore but most Soviet ppsh41s were chrome lined.

slavicshooter
December 12, 2015, 22:35
When I find myself feeling a bit too happy and healthy, I call DSA so I can get back to feeling mean and hateful. I just don't have any use for them.:reallymad:

meltblown
December 12, 2015, 22:38
I think I have a couple of IMBEL chrome barrel kits.....


Or did I get hosed on the deal?

4x401
December 12, 2015, 22:51
Hi. Long time ago I got an Century Arms POST BAN L1A1 with pencil barrel and ugly bugly fugly stock. So I got me an Israeli barrel from DSA few years back, it was laying in a closet since I didn't have money for the labor. When I was buying it they said "No problem, we will install it for $250". So I got the money and went to DSA to ask them to install it. I live not far from Barrington, so I pretty much drove to their store.
a) The guys in store were VERY arrogant and conceited. As if they, the Gods have came down from heaven to talk to insignificant mortal and they are doing me a favor.
b) They told me that it is IMPOSSIBLE to install the barrel into that receiver (NOT what they told me when I was buying barrel few years back). When I mentioned it the guy on sales floor said "I can't be responsible for what other people tell you".
c) He proceeded to HARD PRESSURE me into buying one of their fals ($1400). Telling me that if I sell my "Century Junk" on gunbroker maybe I get $600 for it. WHen I told him that it was built on Imbel Receivers he said "DSA receivers are MUCH better". When I asked about chrome lining on DSA barrels he said that "Chrome lining affects barrel accuracy so we don't chrome line" (which is BULLSHIT, a total and utter bullshit, considering Wehrmach and SOviet snipers had chrome lined barrels in their rifles - didn't seem to affect them). When I asked him about melonite/nitrite coating he said "Melonite affects accuracy, so we do not melonite" - WHICH IS AN EVEN BIGGER BULLSHIT. So the guy is either ignorant or he thinks that I am ignorant.
d) I walked out of there and sent the rifle to Fairfax Firearms Repair. Got it back with barrel installed. (So much for "It can't be done). I do wanna say THANK YOU to FAIRFAX FIREARMS REPAIR AND ENDORSE THEM.

This gets better. Few days later I called them, not their store in barrington but the main number and asked about their Medium contour barrel (I figrued I want another upper). The guy who picked up the phone was: a) VERY RUDE AND ARROGANT. b) HAD NO IDEA how thick the Medium Contour barrel is. c) Had NO idea how heavy it is. d) Also told me that "Melonite and Chrome lining, degrade the rifle accuracy without giving ANY benefits to longevity of the barrel". What a total and utter garbage!!!

To sum it up. DSA arms have IGNORANT and ARROGANT reps. They are ONLY interested in hard pressure to sell their own items. They have NO idea about specs of the items that they sell.
NEVER DEALING WITH DSA AGAIN.

Music to my ears...:love:

Mebsuta
December 13, 2015, 00:18
I think I have a couple of IMBEL chrome barrel kits.....


Or did I get hosed on the deal?

No, I have had about 15 kits and Marcus Grammaticus has looked at thousands, so if he says they have chrome-lined bores, he knows better than me.

ftierson
December 13, 2015, 02:53
I've never seen an IMBEL that wasn't chrome lined.

Some StGs had chrome chambers.

G1s were mostly not, which explains why they had such corroded barrels. A few with Cr on the bayonet mount were chrome lined.

Very early ausie barrels were not, but everything from 1956? forward was, as were the UK.

My understanding is that some of the early Imbels had chromed chambers, but not bores. All the Imbels that I have seen had chromed chambers and bores.

I never bothered to check just the chamber of the StG-58s that I have seen. All of the new rifles that were cut up that have come through my hands had chambers and bores that looked so bright and beautiful that they looked chromed but were not with one exception. I still have 1567xx, and it has a chromed chamber and bore. Only the very last production of the StG-58 had chromed bores.

All of the Argentine barrels that I have seen (all open eared) had chromed chambers and bores.

For what little it's worth...

Forrest

SWOHFAL
December 13, 2015, 04:37
With Entreprise apparently gone, SOMEONE has to set the bar low for customer service and quality....

SWOHFAL
December 13, 2015, 04:40
I think I have a couple of IMBEL chrome barrel kits.....


Or did I get hosed on the deal?

Military barrels had the chambers only, while those sold for commercial market are fully lined, as best I have learned. This could be related to production date, however, since commercial barrels are obviously late production.

gunplumber
December 13, 2015, 09:37
I really don't know where you folks are getting these "chamber only" stories.

I've refinished thousands of IMBEL barrels. When parkerized, the chrome stands out like a beacon. if you hit a hard chromed surface in the sandblaster, it throws sparks. I've never seen one that was not completely chrome lined. I figure, if it was a normal thing for chrome chamber only, I'd have seen one in the last 25 years

I've learned to never say never with anything FAL, but can someone please show me one? Easy to check - if it colors with cold blue, it's not chrome lined.

2barearms
December 13, 2015, 10:15
I had an FN SPRA1 Bolt Gun. The Barrel was chromelined and probably the
most consistent/accurate rifle I ever owned. Since I like messing with them
this one had to go.:tongue:

Stoned_Oli
December 13, 2015, 10:22
I have Mosin Nagant Rifle (not M44 carbine) - CHROME LINED.
I have K98 - Chrome lined
I got Finnish Mosin M39 - Chrome lined.
Got SMLE - Chrome lined.



Mosins are not chrome lined, at least the several I have spanning 1927-1944...
My M39 isn't chrome lined either.
Hell, even the first three years or so of SKS weren't chrome lined.

RG Coburn
December 13, 2015, 10:33
I really don't know where you folks are getting these "chamber only" stories.

I've refinished thousands of IMBEL barrels. When parkerized, the chrome stands out like a beacon. if you hit a hard chromed surface in the sandblaster, it throws sparks. I've never seen one that was not completely chrome lined. I figure, if it was a normal thing for chrome chamber only, I'd have seen one in the last 25 years

I've learned to never say never with anything FAL, but can someone please show me one? Easy to check - if it colors with cold blue, it's not chrome lined.

Yeah,I can't quite fathom the logic of why a military would spec only the chamber,not the whole shebang. Especially rifles made for South America/Amazon jungle use. Seems like a no-brainer to spec a chrome bore.

ftierson
December 13, 2015, 12:12
Yeah,I can't quite fathom the logic of why a military would spec only the chamber,not the whole shebang. Especially rifles made for South America/Amazon jungle use. Seems like a no-brainer to spec a chrome bore.

Actually, I've heard it claimed that the earliest use of chrome in M16s included just the chamber and not the bore...

Specs are just that, you have to come up with them. And there are a lot of no-brainers out there, if you catch my drift... :)

And you hear (and read) a lot of things... :)

Forrest

tac-40
December 13, 2015, 20:50
My late war Garand I got from the CMP has a chrome lined barrel. Barrel and date and receiver serial number are only a couple of months off each other - all SA parts.

Mebsuta
December 13, 2015, 22:19
Tinkering with cold blue is why I believe I never had an FAL barrel with a chrome lined bore. I would test the chambers to see if I could use a finish reamer to make a little adjustment, instead of playing with the locking shoulder.

When I tested the muzzle end out of curiosity, I never found what I thought was a chrome lined bore.

However, there are people that know better than me.

SAFN49
December 14, 2015, 02:15
Actually, I've heard it claimed that the earliest use of chrome in M16s included just the chamber and not the bore...

Specs are just that, you have to come up with them. And there are a lot of no-brainers out there, if you catch my drift... :)

And you hear (and read) a lot of things... :)

Forrest

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/822736.pdf

ftierson
December 14, 2015, 11:54
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/822736.pdf

I'm not quite sure what this has to do my my quoted comment unless I missed something in the 47 pages about stellite chambers and nitrited barrels and whatall.

The early M16 suffered problems (jamming problems) in Vietnam that were attributed to a couple of problems. First, we all know about the change from IMR8208 to WC846 (or whatever the earliest Olin ball powder for the 5.56mm was called) and effect on port pressure and thus on cyclic rate. We all know about the stories touting the M16 as not needing cleaning. The second was fixed by including buttstock cleaning kits and publishing little manuals extorting the value of cleaning and the consequences of not doing so (like VC women walking away with your rifle). The third major problem (which was exacerbated by non-cleaning and the tropical environment) was corrosion in the chamber. This last problem was addressed by first chroming the chamber (and, relatively quickly after that, the chamber and bore). This also helped problem number one, especially when the ball powder composition was changed slightly to help reduce calcium deposition.

The M60 that I carried had a stellite liner.

This all from memory and we all know the potential problems with that...

Forrest

SAFN49
December 14, 2015, 14:46
I'm not quite sure what this has to do my my quoted comment unless I missed something in the 47 pages about stellite chambers and nitrited barrels and whatall.



On pages 4, 5 and 6 about the chrome lining, thickness, and previous testing with M16's
I guess stellite lined chrome plated is the way to go. 40,000 round bbl life

TheShoote
December 16, 2015, 23:06
I have Mosin Nagant Rifle (not M44 carbine) - CHROME LINED.
I have K98 - Chrome lined
I got Finnish Mosin M39 - Chrome lined.
Got SMLE - Chrome lined.

I have Israeli barrel on my FAL- Chrome lined.
Argentine and L1A1 FALs are Chrome lined.

As far as accuracy for chrome lining. Germans, Swiss, Italians and Austrians - makers of SOME OF THE BEST firearms chrome line their rifles (AUG, G36 AR70/90 ARX-160). They are CHROME LINED nobody complained about accuracy of those rifles. Chrome lining should be done right - then it won't affect accuracy. Most US gun manufacturers are greedy cheapskates, so they lie about "chrome lining affects accuracy" because they are too cheap to get good chrome lining process going. SVD are chrome lined. Nobody ever complained that (with right ammo) they are not accurate. M14 are chrome lined (REAL M14, not cheap Springfield armory stuff), nobody complains about their accuracy.
In any case DSA arms guys have NO idea what they are talking about, or they are liars. Once again. KUDOS to FAIRFAX FIREARMS REPAIR.
Spot on Tigerclaw
I have an all winchester M1A on a preban SAI reciever that has a beautiful chrome lined barrel that shoots 3 inch groups at 200 yards with iron sights. That's my SHTF rifle.
http://i65.tinypic.com/jtp9iq.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/2qbwv2s.jpg