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Douglas Wozny
November 16, 2015, 10:22
I have been offered what is represented as a transferable FACTORY ORIGINAL select fire H&K 91. Before everyone starts to go down the "transferable" rabbit track I HAVE VERIFIED THAT IT IS INDEED TRANSFERABLE ON A FORM 4! My concern is the "FACTORY ORIGINAL" part. I have limited knowledge of the H&K and that is mostly about the semi-automatic versions. Did some original H&K select fire get into the U. S. A.? I was under the impression that select fire H&K 91's were all after market conversions.

SAFN49
November 16, 2015, 10:39
It should be marked G3 from the factory if it was full auto, not HK91.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s30/djm540idjm540i/g3_antirattlepaddle1_zpsa8fcivvi.jpg (http://s148.photobucket.com/user/djm540idjm540i/media/g3_antirattlepaddle1_zpsa8fcivvi.jpg.html)

pre1989
November 17, 2015, 23:38
Ok I got it ..There were a handfull of semi auto G3 imported in the early 1960s pre the hk41 it seems ... So yes it is marked G3 but no it is not a factory full auto

The only way a factory full auto a true one got in was pre 1968 and even as it stands the semi auto G3 and hk41 were banned in 1968 from import

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?33942-The-HK-G3-Semi-Auto-Rifle


This above is my best guess ....

Does it have the paddle mag and laucher rings on the barrel

Douglas Wozny
November 18, 2015, 16:05
Only saw pictures of the Form 4 (to prove it was truly transferable) and the overall view of right and left side on an I-Phone. I do recall seeing the paddle release but can not remember if the grenade retaining ring was present. I now suspect the current owner (who is the third owner) may have been misinformed as to the ancestry of the rifle. I do recall that on the Form 4 H&K was listed as the manufacturer. I am planning a hands on examination this weekend. Hopefully all questions will be answered then.

VALMET
November 18, 2015, 16:24
HK 41s weren't banned in 1968 they were slightly reconfigured and imported in 1974 by SACO.

Pre1989 is correct, if a true factory G3 machine gun, it would've been imported prior to 1968.

NFADLR
November 18, 2015, 16:29
Thanks, saved me time and effort.

Since I have two HK41'S, a 1966 and a 1974 it's good to know they were somehow legally imported and didn't just appear in the states via magic.


HK 41s weren't banned in 1968 they were slightly reconfigured and imported in 1974 by SACO.

SAFN49
November 18, 2015, 18:17
HK 41s weren't banned in 1968 they were slightly reconfigured and imported in 1974 by SACO.

Pre1989 is correct, if a true factory G3 machine gun, it would've been imported prior to 1968.

Yes and HK changed the Model designation to HK91 for Semi Auto after that.

AFAIK HK never ever made a full auto HK91 as that was their designation for a SEMI auto. G3 has always been their model for full auto.

SPEEDGUNNER
November 18, 2015, 18:49
Could it be a Fleming gun? They were pretty hot into the auto sear market for a while in the 80's and 90's...it could be one of their conversions.

Conelrad
November 18, 2015, 21:05
Not a Fleming conversion. NFA guns are a whole different kettle of fish, everything imaginable was done by re-watting demilled guns on Form 1's up to the end in '86.

I digress....

As stated before, they were imported by Golden State Arms under the Santa Fe brand. All were the "MK" series and serials were in the 2XXX range. They were made in Western Germany, and importable under the ATF regulations of the day.

They were built before the '68 GCA, in which the ATF included sweeping restrictions on many guns (such as anti-tank cannons) that were importable up to the finalization of the act.

Santa Fe 41's and G-series FALs were also such guns that made it under the wire.

The G3 MK 2XXX rifles were just about the same as a select-fire G3, with very few having a true swing-down but blocked fire control. Most of that series had a relocated push-pin to prevent the use of a select-fire housing.

Most had grooved bolt carriers, but all had the safety-sear lever intact.

They were Parkerized, had serialized components, magazine release flaps, and grenade launcher retention rings on the barrel as well. The charging handles were all steel, al la the Spanish CETME.

Security Arms (SACo) 41's were almost a decade afterwards, compliant with the new laws and essentially the same as the 91's, with the big differences being the import markings and the coating color.

Just a note from a guy that has owned all the above at one time or another.

Dennis

ps...Gunbroker has been the host of listings of real G3's that were recently imported under questionable conditions, modified to emulate the confirmation of an HK-91.

Mark IV
November 19, 2015, 12:14
Vollmer maybe?

Douglas Wozny
November 23, 2015, 08:50
Over the weekend I had an opportunity for a hands on examination of the rifle. Thank you for all your input. It help me determine it is NOT a factory original select fire. Who did the conversion? Beats me. Told the owner I was not interested as H&K's were not my thing. He said that was alright as he had a buyer waiting in the wings. He still is convinced it is factory original.

ercrossfire
November 23, 2015, 20:15
Told the owner I was not interested as H&K's were not my thing.
Don't spoil it for the rest of us...:notlistening:
Thanks for the follow-up.

VALMET
November 23, 2015, 20:37
Over the weekend I had an opportunity for a hands on examination of the rifle. Thank you for all your input. It help me determine it is NOT a factory original select fire. Who did the conversion? Beats me. Told the owner I was not interested as H&K's were not my thing. He said that was alright as he had a buyer waiting in the wings. He still is convinced it is factory original.

Some guys can convince themselves of anything regardless of contrary information. Hopefully the "wings" buyer does a little homework on this "factory" HK 91 machine gun.

Conelrad
November 24, 2015, 01:15
That ought to be on his ATF Form 4...but the real guy was on the pre-'86 Form 1.

DDG

Douglas Wozny
November 24, 2015, 13:48
That ought to be on his ATF Form 4...but the real guy was on the pre-'86 Form 1.
DDG

When I was first approached with this offer, the seller showed me a copy of the Form 4 to assure me that it was truly "transferable". In the description of the firearm the "Name and Address of Maker, Manufacturer and/or Importer of Firearm" was listed as Heckler & Koch, Inc., Arlington, VA and the "Model" was listed as H&K 91. So, when the seller told me that this was a "factory original" I was interested but not knowing that much about H&K stuff I thought I would do some research before "pulling the trigger". Thanks to the people of this forum I got enough info to "dodge the bullet" on this one.

Conelrad
November 24, 2015, 13:56
Regardless of his BS, a transferrable CONVERTED receiver 91 (not a sear gun) is worth upwards of $20K today...

DDG

ICOM7800
November 24, 2015, 21:21
HK 41s weren't banned in 1968 they were slightly reconfigured and imported in 1974 by SACO.

Pre1989 is correct, if a true factory G3 machine gun, it would've been imported prior to 1968.

Yeah, SACO Security Arms Company.Arlington, VA. I have A 91 from HK SACO import.

Elkaholic
November 25, 2015, 01:47
Maybe I missed it but I'll ask. What was the cost?

Rudolf
November 25, 2015, 02:30
Is it a form 4 or form 1?

It should show who actually did the conversion and it will show in the form 4 if this person is the 2nd or 3rd down the line.

There are tons of people that personally registered their receivers for conversion.

My guess is that it is a Registered receiver and the paperwork is wrong as it is not showing the maker of it.

pre1989
November 25, 2015, 02:40
Really the question I would have is price ... If not that bad I would bite who cares if org or not .. Now if he is wanting 20-30k naw .. But .....

And if the sear can be moved then really big ++

Douglas Wozny
November 25, 2015, 08:39
The price was less than $10,000 BUT it came with strings. I do not want to go into the personal life of the seller but the secret protolcols associated with the deal, although maybe not illegal, did make me uncomfortable. So, let us leave it at that.

ercrossfire
November 25, 2015, 15:23
The price was less than $10,000 BUT it came with strings. I do not want to go into the personal life of the seller but the secret protolcols associated with the deal, although maybe not illegal, did make me uncomfortable. So, let us leave it at that.
It sounded like it had scam written all over it from the very beginning.:facepalm:

pre1989
November 26, 2015, 00:07
The price was less than $10,000 BUT it came with strings. I do not want to go into the personal life of the seller but the secret protolcols associated with the deal, although maybe not illegal, did make me uncomfortable. So, let us leave it at that.



Yeah if he is selling any full auto non say FNC or ac556 for under 10k either it is a scam not legal or best case just dont know what he had

Sounds like you may a ok call

Mark IV
November 26, 2015, 08:02
I shot a full auto HK91 conversion at Knob Creek: It walked me backward even with the owner's hand on my shoulder and put up a plume of smoke that would make any Indian smoke signalman proud.

Unless you're 6' 6" and 300 lbs, I can't think of anything more useless than a shoulder-fired 7.62x51 rifle. I'd buy a FA FAL, but just for the beauty and the collectability of the piece, not for function. At 5' 7" that caliber in FA is wasted on me ... and Mr. & Mrs. Q. didn't raise no sissy either.