PDA

View Full Version : Rookie garand question


spider991
September 29, 2015, 08:13
Gents,

being a new Garand owner, i am having an issue that is puzzling me. I don't know a lot about the greatest battle implement ever devised but i'm learning..

question: When firing a string, the 3-4 round fires and the clip pops up..not out but just out of battery. i just push down and start again but this happened 4 times in 9 clips...different clips. I'm shooting the 30cal Greek surplus..nice clean stuff. could it be just a couple crappy clips? im gonna try to put a few more down range tonight when i get home(back yard)..this is a beautiful rifle and "just feels right" when I shoot it...could be a problem(LOVE IT)..I know it has a Winchester trigger group but that is about it. i will try to get pics up after work. Thanks guys.

gordonm1
September 29, 2015, 10:02
It has been a long time for me but I am thinking the clip latch spring is worn. sometimes they are gummed up with dried lubricant and removal and cleaning may be all that's needed.

Texgunner
September 29, 2015, 10:13
I've had the same issue happen with the Greek ammo. A Garand-collecting buddy tells me the Greek enblocs are the problem. Try some USGI clips and see if that still happens. Good luck!

tdb59
September 29, 2015, 10:34
I've had the same issue happen with the Greek ammo. A Garand-collecting buddy tells me the Greek enblocs are the problem. Try some USGI clips and see if that still happens. Good luck!

^

This.

Try some GI clips ( made in North America ) first.

It could be a worn clip latch, but I would suspect the clips are the culprit.


.

spider991
September 29, 2015, 16:50
Excellent thanks...I will give the clips a try...I got a bunch at the fun show on the cheap...that's what I get...gonna order some good ones.....are the USA ones marked?

tdb59
September 29, 2015, 17:47
.....are the USA ones marked?

Yes.

North American, more correct.

Common markings found in the center of the clip body.

DAQ - Dominion Arsenal Quebec.
BRW - Borg Warner
SA - Springfield Armory
IS- International Silver


http://www.billricca.com/trans/m1_clipdrum_bw_clip.jpg

spider991
September 29, 2015, 21:51
Thanks very much. ...I looked at all my clips...got like 40 loaded...7 unmarked and the rest BRW with different numbers below them..now I will re-shoot tomorrow and if it happens again I will check the clip latch spring for gunk and wear...hopefully the rain stops and I can shoot tomorrow

spider991
October 01, 2015, 18:57
Ok...great advice guys....cleaned the clip lever and used gi clips today....ran like a sewing machine! ! The more I shoot this rie, the more I love it....this is a real rifle...wow, I'm hooked..I also shamefully think about the times bitching about carrying the poodle shooter when I think about the bad asses toting this thing all over Europe and the Pacific campaign. ..

tdb59
October 01, 2015, 19:31
I love M1 rifles !

http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc366/TuscanRaider/DSCF3695_zps0unu3gmg.jpg

spider991
October 01, 2015, 19:59
Thinking bout doing the hi-power shooting...Cincinnati rifle and pistol club has matches near me.....gonna have to stretch this one out..see how it shoots bullseyes...I need a good sling.

SteelonSteel
October 01, 2015, 20:19
The M1 cotton type sling with the slide and dog keeper are just fine for getting started and really as functional as the nice M1907 leather slings. They're also quicker to get into position and easier to make changes with.

I have both types and like em both but tend to grab the cotton one for range trips.

Heck you used to be able to buy surplus USGI ones in the bin right at Camp Perry. Things like that come and go though.

spider991
October 01, 2015, 20:33
I live in Ohio so camp perry is a must....maybe after I convince the wife about know creek next week. ..

randy762ak
October 01, 2015, 20:42
I really Like The M1 Rifle !!!
My buddy and I scored a couple nice ones at the North store ! We had several hours to search the racks and We sorted out 15-20 rifles and set them aside --I let Buddy Pick first and he got a nice one --I picked 2nd place and it too was a very nice mechanical piece -with some wood damage ! That I repaired... Both shoot very well !


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q81/randy762ak/RIFLES/DSCF0635_zps481b4a10.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/user/randy762ak/media/RIFLES/DSCF0635_zps481b4a10.jpg.html)

spider991
October 02, 2015, 11:08
found the Turner national match slings, looks pretty good..not really bad priced. 1907 style. seems like i need one if i cant find something at the fun show this weekend

bubbagump
October 02, 2015, 11:44
It has been a long time for me but I am thinking the clip latch spring is worn. sometimes they are gummed up with dried lubricant and removal and cleaning may be all that's needed.

I've had the same issue happen with the Greek ammo. A Garand-collecting buddy tells me the Greek enblocs are the problem. Try some USGI clips and see if that still happens. Good luck!

In general the Greek clips feed ok with new Greek ammo but are an issue with reloaded brass, which expands slightly at the base unless you use a small base sizer. And that brings its own issues. Terry is right, try a few strings with GI clips.

If that doesn't do it then yep, a worn clip latch spring is the first place to look.

BTW welcome to the world of the M1 rifle, IMO it's what an M1A wants to be when it grows up.

b.

tdb59
October 02, 2015, 11:52
In general the Greek clips feed ok with new Greek ammo .....

b.

In general, yes.

Those clips are substandard.

I have seen enough instances of bolt over base, as well as live rounds ejecting with the clip in place with ammo straight out of the spam can to relegate those fargin clips to wind chime projects, or thrown in the short iron bucket.



.

bubbagump
October 02, 2015, 12:00
In general, yes.

Those clips are substandard.

I have seen enough instances of bolt over base, as well as live rounds ejecting with the clip in place with ammo straight out of the spam can to relegate those fargin clips to wind chime projects, or thrown in the short iron bucket.



.

They are substandard. In generall they are dimensionally OK on the outside but the metal is too thick which makes them not stack correctly when you fill 'em with handloads. A bit too stiff also, at least the ones I've used. At best, save 'em to sell at gunshows. What Shlomo and I did was to keep the GI clips separate and then test each one. Three passes through the rifle and it got a dollop of paint on the rear, right in that handy little 'zero' in the middle. Everyone got their own color, mine is red. This so you can recover your own after the walk-down.

There is no reason to use Greek clips if you have options. The Greek brass on the other hand is pretty reasonable stuff. Not on a par with Lake City but almost.

b.

spider991
October 02, 2015, 12:30
im good now, it was the clips, i got 40 BRW surplus USGI clips now and they shoot perfect..the drop of paint on the good running clips is a great idea, think i will do that...I tumbled the greek brass last night and will probaly make some reloads this weekend. got plenty of powder but might need ot get some bullets somewhere...do the 147s work well enough or should i go heavier?

bubbagump
October 02, 2015, 13:50
im good now, it was the clips, i got 40 BRW surplus USGI clips now and they shoot perfect..the drop of paint on the good running clips is a great idea, think i will do that...I tumbled the greek brass last night and will probaly make some reloads this weekend. got plenty of powder but might need ot get some bullets somewhere...do the 147s work well enough or should i go heavier?

Great, glad to hear it. My experience with the 147s is they are good, certainly good enough for a standard service grade rifle.

When it comes to target-grade loads conventional wisdom has long held that heavier bullets are better but that has not been my experience. the 168 grain match hps from both Hornady and Sierra work ok out to 300 yards or so but beyond that I've never seen 'em work real well. 175s are a bit better but the team's testing has shown that the Sierra 155 Palma bullet consistently yields better performance beyond 300 yards than anything else we tested. This was observed for both .308 and .06 M1s.

So my take is if you want to do something better than .147 military you go all the way to the Palma bullet. Fifty grains of IMR 4064 in a .30-06 case spanks 'em about right and is safe in a service rifle.

If you run out of 147s and want to stick with ball ammo the Hornady 150 fmjbt's are a good replacement and they shoot about the same.

b.

tdb59
October 02, 2015, 15:08
I have found that at 200-300 150 grain flat base such as the Hornady # 3031 ( more bearing length than the same weight boat tail ) shoot excellent, and at 500 yards a sharpshooter will do fine. Expert may be able to hold better than the bullet.




.

spider991
October 02, 2015, 18:28
Great! I'm gonna try to find some 155 Palmas at the gun show..already got a bunch of 4064...: if not at the show, I will order some online

W.E.G.
October 02, 2015, 18:56
The cheapest, most crappy-looking, mixed bag pulls easily hold the 9 ring on the 200-yard SR-target if the shooter does his part.

When I really want to work over the 10-ring on the SR-target, I shoot 150-grain Sierra MatchKings, and a powder charge of a couple grains less than the sort of load that would be needed to shoot longer distances. The "two-grains-less" makes enough difference in recoil to justify it, and the accuracy really doesn't suffer at 200 yards.

I pretty much have no ambition to shoot the Garand at longer distances than 200 yards, or at targets more challenging than the SR target.

At this month's all-the-marbles M1 match, I'm shooting those 150's with 45.0 grains Accurate Arms 2520.

The lesser recoil really makes a difference in holding position during the rapid-fire string.

When I run out of the 2520, I'll probably switch to the same 45.0 grains Varget or TAC.

W.E.G.
October 02, 2015, 18:59
Same deal.

45.0 grains 4064 if you don't care to endure Garandus Recoilus Maximus.

http://i57.tinypic.com/3539qfa.jpg

W.E.G.
October 02, 2015, 19:02
Repro USGI "web" slings are still cheap as dirt, and nearly as abundant.

I prefer a nice 1907 sling myself.

I'm currently using a brown-color Turner "All-Weather" 1907 sling on the Garand.
It seems to always rain when I shoot the Garand.

Keep a towel handy in case you have to shoot the Garand in the rain.
If you let much rain accumulate on the rifle before you fire a shot, you better watch out.
The recoil throws all that water VIOLENTLY into your eyes.
AMHIK.

spider991
October 02, 2015, 19:34
I looked at the all weather ones...wondered if they were nice. I like the 1907 tan/brown look. Would i get beat up for putting an OD green one on my rifle???Palmas look a Lil pricey but not horrible but i got 150g pulls already...I will see what I get at the show..and the recoil described does not sound like fun. I will hold on the garandus recoilus maximus. I got a bunch of Greek to shoot thru so I got time.

spider991
October 02, 2015, 19:59
So 45g varget with 150s is a decent load...I use varget a lot...wouldn't have to buy new.powder

genmeagher
October 02, 2015, 21:16
Love the Garand.

My Dad carried one in the '50's.

This rifle will always own a special place in my heart.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e240/genmeagher/IMG_0205_zps51tfofhy.jpg

bubbagump
October 03, 2015, 05:27
So 45g varget with 150s is a decent load...I use varget a lot...wouldn't have to buy new.powder

Varget is a good powder, the team's .308 load is varget. I'm sure it will be fine. Great probably although the Hogs didn't work up a .30-06 load with Varget 45 grains sounds in the ballpark. One reason we went with 4064 was, being as fluffy as it is, it fills the case out and 50 grains of it will get you right at 2900 fps with a palma bullet. The recoil is definitely there but completely manageable, our load plan requred three clips of aimed fire at the 500 yard line in 50 seconds and we have a girl who can do it on command.

We developed these loads for infantry trophy and wanted something that would shoot at all yard lines. If you are going to be 300 yards and in you don't need that 2900 fps muzzle velocity and you can probably drop back a couple of grains on whatever you use.

As an aside we found that the best accuracy in an M1 is a near-max load. The groups will reduce in size as you increase the powder charge, then you will hit a point where they open up again. There will be no doubt when you hit this point because the effect is fairly dramatic. This for us was 51 grains of 4064, under the 155, hence the 50 grain load. 49 grains was good but not as tight. 48 grains is an even gentler load, works well enough for most things but again, not as tight. We repeated this with several different rifles and they all acted the same way. I cannot say why this is although I have my theories. If you want to shoot near-max loads regularly with an M1 rifle you should consider a schuster plug for your rifle which will allow you to vent the excess gas and reduce pressure on the operating rod, they're cheap and CMP legal. All our match guns have 'em. This for what it's worth.

To the choice of bullets, basically on the SR-2 target you can use meatballs and still hold the 9 ring, WEG is right about that. The bullets start to matter at 300 and out.

b.

W.E.G.
October 03, 2015, 08:50
I shot a mild Varget load in the Garand match at Camp Perry.

My only accuracy issue was those damn full-minute clicks on the rear sight.

Pimped some prone 9's cause of it.

Way I shoot offhand, I get about 7 good shots, and 3 where I might as well have loaded ground-up match heads.
Trying to do better about that.

spider991
October 03, 2015, 13:23
Nothing good at the fun show today... One cheap Chinese made 1907 sling but I'll pass I think I'm going to order the Turner sling. No good reloading components either. Disappointed.

W.E.G.
October 03, 2015, 15:00
Gun show, they always disappoint.

Better spend money at Hooters instead.

bubbagump
October 03, 2015, 15:04
Nothing good at the fun show today... One cheap Chinese made 1907 sling but I'll pass I think I'm going to order the Turner sling. No good reloading components either. Disappointed.

Turner 1907s are great slings and when the keepers wear out you can buy new keepers. Although the GI web slings work well too if you're a purist and know how to use 'em. I have turner slings on both my match guns.

b.

spider991
October 03, 2015, 19:14
I use 4831 for my non garand 30-06 with the heavier bullets. Got a ton of that powder. Would love to work up a reasonable garand load with it. From my understanding it is for heavy pills and kinda hot.....like my varget for my 75grainers.

tdb59
October 03, 2015, 19:24
Garand powders....

IMR 4895
IMR 4064
BlC-2
748
RL 15
Varget


.

bubbagump
October 04, 2015, 06:45
I use 4831 for my non garand 30-06 with the heavier bullets. Got a ton of that powder. Would love to work up a reasonable garand load with it. From my understanding it is for heavy pills and kinda hot.....like my varget for my 75grainers.

What Terry said. Garands aren't gonna like 4831. You can probably get by with it but you are definitely gonna want a schuster plug to vent the extra gas. Magnum powders get you high port pressure because of the slower burn rate no matter what bullets you use, it's what they do. And they typically don't get you the finest of accuracy for the same reason, the high port pressure accentuates the effect asymmetries present whenever a bullet exits a barrel.

Add N140 to the list of good Garand powders but as it's unobtainium for the moment and awfully expensive even when it's not the only reason to use that would be if you were sitting on a mountain of the stuff. Really hard to go wrong with RL15 tbh.

W.E.G.
October 04, 2015, 09:39
I use 4831 for my non garand 30-06 with the heavier bullets. Got a ton of that powder. Would love to work up a reasonable garand load with it. From my understanding it is for heavy pills and kinda hot.....like my varget for my 75grainers.


You need to avoid using 4831 in your Garand.

The "conventional wisdom" is that the pressure-curve of too-slow powders does not let-off soon enough. As such, pressure is still peaking when the gas port receives pressure, and you end up bending op-rods.

While peak pressure is still within SAAMI, I do not think this load will treat your Garand well.

http://i62.tinypic.com/219v0yb.jpg

W.E.G.
October 04, 2015, 09:48
If you can stand to give up the velocity, this load may shoot OK in your Garand, even though the pressure peaks a bit late for the Garand.

http://i57.tinypic.com/1z2d4c9.jpg

W.E.G.
October 04, 2015, 09:53
This more-closely duplicates M2 ball.

Notice the difference between this load and the preceding load as to when the pressure peaks.

http://i60.tinypic.com/ht6yae.jpg

spider991
October 04, 2015, 14:01
Lol....WEG...I trust you after all this time....just say "no 4831"....:rofl:

I will.stick with the varget,4064 and 4895...I figured it was way to high pressure.. and I am gonna order a turner sling..thanks a ton for the help guys