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mrclark303
July 10, 2015, 03:33
Morning all,

I bought a (de-ativated) MP5 yesterday, very interesting piece with British proof marks, the serial number is 3/68, can anyone tell me the year of manufacture?


Cheers, John

AGG
July 10, 2015, 09:27
I believe that the 3/68 is the manufacturing date!!! :)
The serial number should be on the right of the top receiver (e.g., EN MP5 Kal. 9mmx19 0XXXX 3/68), with no markings on the left/right receiver. ;)
I have data for the 4/72 Enfields, serial numbers 03484 and 03817. :)
Can you PM me the exact markings on the top receiver? ;)

mrclark303
July 10, 2015, 14:20
Hmmm, now I am confused, I am completely new to the world of the MP5, well I thought I was until I stripped it down to discover its nothing more than a baby G3!

I can confirm it has no serial number, the number used on its Birmingham Proof House certificate is 3/68, the number hasn't been removed just simply never there!

No German proofs either, just British proof marks with the date code of 1987, it was deactivated in 1989 (the proof of deactivation mark is the tiny stamp seen in the image) .... so who used this "gray" MP5 for 19 years then I wonder??

21HK
July 10, 2015, 23:13
Taking into consideration the year that it was deactivated does it have a working bolt group and can it be field stripped?...if so, there may be a date or other markings on the bolt head.

Being that it's an Enfield gun it was made in England, therefore the reason your only finding British proofs.

If you have a date code of 1987 and a deactivation date of 1989...where does 19 years of use come in?

Is it possible to get a side shot of the lower housing?, SEF or URJ marked?

Thanks!

Andy the Aussie
July 11, 2015, 00:34
Taking into consideration the year that it was deactivated does it have a working bolt group and can it be field stripped?...if so, there may be a date or other markings on the bolt head.

Being that it's an Enfield gun it was made in England, therefore the reason your only finding British proofs.

If you have a date code of 1987 and a deactivation date of 1989...where does 19 years of use come in?

Is it possible to get a side shot of the lower housing?, SEF or URJ marked?

Thanks! .... I think what he is saying that it was proofed in the UK in 87 but appears to have been made in 68.

mrclark303
July 11, 2015, 02:11
Morning all,

I thought Enfield assembled examples had EN stamped, this example is HK marked, the date of manufacture is 1968, but it wasn't proofed until 1987.

It fully strips ( barrel is pinned to receiver) and dry fires, with an intact deactivated bolt group.

So what do we think guys, I will post more pics when I get a chance.

21HK
July 11, 2015, 11:06
.... I think what he is saying that it was proofed in the UK in 87 but appears to have been made in 68.
Got it!...thanks

Morning all,
I thought Enfield assembled examples had EN stamped

The attachment wouldn't open up for me last night so I was going off of what was posted.

Your correct, and also they usually have a black painted finish, yours appears to have a parkerized finish?...now I really want to see more.

Like you mentioned, 3/68, being that it's the only number on there is what they used for the certificate. It definitely seems to be the date of manufacture.

I did some looking around and found that HK and Enfield didn't start talks until the early '70's and manufacturing of the EN G3 didn't happen until 1972.
They used German made components then proof marked them under RASF testings procedure.

Funny because the first examination test was:
1. Check serial number on Body

Overall condition of internal parts?...if it doesn't look like it was used much prior to deactivation it could of been sitting in a rack for 19 years.

Is there anyway of contacting the Proof House that issues the deactivation certificates to obtain more information on it's history?...like who owned it prior to deactivation.
Military ?
Museum ?
MOD pattern room?

There should be paper trail that could link this all together for you.


Thanks

mrclark303
July 12, 2015, 08:18
Some left and right pics guys, it came with this set of modern furniture and its original furniture.

21HK
July 12, 2015, 08:35
:facepalm: I was really hoping to see the "original" furniture on this.

There should be no question, judging by the era of that stock, when this was made....very nice!

mrclark303
July 12, 2015, 09:51
Here's the original set along with the modern set (I left the later pistol grip in place), so any theories for the lack of serial number guys????

Regarding contacting the Proof House for more info, forget it, everything prior to about 2000 is on paper records, they would need to trawl through many thousands of files to find the relevant info (assuming they still have it at all after 26 years)..:sad:

The only major difference I can see appears to be a lack of bolt stop on the early MP5..

01BIRDDOG
July 12, 2015, 10:41
Help me understand..........Were all MP5's that were marked either EN MP5 or En MP5 built in England with HK parts? Also what is the difference of the large EN vs. the En in the lettering. All of this is cloudy to me. Sorry.

MajHenryWest
July 12, 2015, 14:11
My understanding is that "68" is the HK-Oberndorf factory code for the MP-5 series of firearms. You can see the "68" number on MP-5s manufactured even recently (like the FBI 10mm variants).


Question: Did HK ever source parts from it's licensees like FMP in Portugal
or MKE in Turkey if they were running short on components to meet
a deadline? That could account for a phosphate frame getting out.

There is also the possibility that the MP-5 in question started it's life as one of the early parkerized predecessors to the MP-5, known then as the HK-54. and
was "modernized" to some extent later on. This could also explain the lack of a serial number on the top strap too. The HK-54 used very different sights than the MP-5 and changing them out could have meant that the original top strap was heavily modified or abraded in some way as to leave it numberless.

Comments?

21HK
July 12, 2015, 14:28
Here's the original set along with the modern set (I left the later pistol grip in place), so any theories for the lack of serial number guys????

Regarding contacting the Proof House for more info, forget it, everything prior to about 2000 is on paper records, they would need to trawl through many thousands of files to find the relevant info (assuming they still have it at all after 26 years)..:sad:

The only major difference I can see appears to be a lack of bolt stop on the early MP5..

The only thing that I've found regarding firearms that bear no serial number from the manufacture are:
Prototype and tool room weapons may not have been serialized.
Weapons produced for clandestine purposes often bear no markings, or false markings.

Due to the remarkable condition I would theorize with the first.
Paper record or not, while it may not be as easy task, I should think they would have this information retained somewhere.

What are you referring to as a "bolt stop"?

Some models earlier than this had what they referred to as a "bolt catch" located in the front of the cocking tube that would ensure positive lock up.
(parts 24-27)

photo credit: (Stevens)
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv139/OURVISIONS/Misc/mp5_zpsvyrkaqcr.jpg (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/OURVISIONS/media/Misc/mp5_zpsvyrkaqcr.jpg.html)

Lastly, thanks for taking the time to share the photos...if you note, yours is lacking any provision for a scope mount. I've noticed this with the early HK and even the some of EN marked MP 5's. Thankfully, whom ever had this before you, kept the early style lower housing and A3 stock with it.


It's definitely a very cool piece and seems like it found its way to a good home and to someone who appreciates it for what it is.




Help me understand..........Were all MP5's that were marked either EN MP5 or En MP5 built in England with HK parts? Also what is the difference of the large EN vs. the En in the lettering. All of this is cloudy to me. Sorry.

The only thing I've seen is about the G3, some small parts were made at Enfield, most were made in Germany and assembled at Enfield to circumvent German export restrictions.
The Enfield proof should be an E and D along with a broad arrow stamp.

EN vs. En ?....I have no clue.

mrclark303
July 13, 2015, 04:46
Working on the tool room idea, I have formed this hypothesis ..... It is possible that its an example given to ROF Enfield as a production sample prior to their assembly agreement for domestic production and commencement of manufacture in 1972.

The overall excellent condition, with little sign of use, coupled with the proof date of 1987, tally's with preparation for the Factory shut down timetable when production of small arms was being transferred to ROF Nottingham and when they started moving surplus gear away from the site..

They knew the world famous Enfield pattern room collection would have to close and at that point, its future was in considerable doubt, so this most obvious destination for it wasn't an option.

After all, it had to be proofed prior to sale by UK law, not an issue as a factory sample for its first 19 years of existence. This seems to me the only way HK would allow one to leave the factory un-proved and with no serial number.

Just an idea.

I am away on holiday to Greece today, but will keep checking in on the files (when my wife's not looking) keep the ideas coming guys..

Many thanks for all the feedback so far, I thank you all for your time and expertise.

N4KVE
July 13, 2015, 22:39
Question: Did HK ever source parts from it's licensees like FMP in Portugal
or MKE in Turkey if they were running short on components to meet
a deadline? I have been told "yes". GARY

AGG
July 14, 2015, 14:19
The 3/68 is definitely the manufacturing date, with the serial number usually located just to the left of it!!! :)
The earliest serials (non-EN) that I have for the MP5 is 10068 (1966), and 80397 (1969), both with "SEF" lowers. ;)

Tony

mrclark303
July 16, 2015, 16:43
Evening all, in Greece now and its hot as hell, especially to a Brit!

Does anyone have contact detail's for HK, perhaps if I ask, someone at the company just might be able to shed some light on my MP5..

21HK
July 16, 2015, 18:18
Here's a link to their contact page....don't hold your breath waiting for them to reply, if at all.

https://www.heckler-koch.com/de/unternehmen/kontakt.html

will keep checking in on the files (when my wife's not looking).
PS: Hope your having a great time, tell the Mrs. we all said hello! :biggrin:...kidding

mrclark303
July 17, 2015, 03:21
Morning all, many thanks for the heads up, I will look into the HK forum and contact the company, I might try the Enfield apprentice's association for info too, ( I won't hold my breath through, they seldom respond to emails) .

Well, I spent the morning snorkelling and have now set up base camp by the pool, dug well in with plenty of beer on tap......another day in hell guys!

B Wood
September 26, 2015, 08:02
I own a H&K Mp-5. IIt is a safe bet that that Enfield made a number of unlicensed copies of HK's....It is discussed in the HK Mp-5 book by Frank James in chapter 13 "the Bastards" Page 180.

Enfield MP-5's lacked the trademark. All have the EN Prefix with a serial number stamped on top.

Some of the EN Prefix MP-5's also have the ULM Germany proofhouse stamp as well as the nitro-proof stamp on top, but lack the HK marking.

Other EN Prefix MP-5's had no German proof marks whatsoever instead were marked with Birmingham proof marks and NO German nitro proof.

Theory is Enfield wanted to produce HK's and obtained a number from HK...and then attempted to build their own. No one will confirm.

gunplumber
September 26, 2015, 09:43
I do subcontract work for HK's repair & training. I'll make an inquiry.