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Bawana jim
February 28, 2015, 21:53
I have my own opinions but would like to hear yours, what is the best sub gun out there?

Wecsogery
February 28, 2015, 21:55
I don't know what is the best per se, but my favorites are the M3 Grease Gun and the MP40.

I've fired a few different types. Never fired an M3, but I like its simplicity and (reported) slow cyclic rate. Also that it's a .45.
I have fired an MP40, in competition as a matter of fact, and I love the feel and the way it shoots. I also shot an MP5 in competition and liked it, but not as well as I liked the '40.

SAFN49
February 28, 2015, 22:12
Swedish K all the way.

Dr Shock
February 28, 2015, 22:17
One could argue the situational merits of one sub gun over another all day.. But, when its time to start massacring tvs, junk cars and setting off powder charges, I'll take the ppsh 41 with a drum every time.

SAFN49
February 28, 2015, 22:20
One could argue the situational merits of one sub gun over another all day.. But, when its time to start massacring tvs, junk cars and setting off powder charges, I'll take the ppsh 41 with a drum every time.

The K takes drums too :D

Dan44
February 28, 2015, 22:23
I've shot a few, and like the MP40 the best.

kev
February 28, 2015, 22:25
Don't know about "best", but the Beretta PM12S is far and away my favorite. Nothing else comes close. Next rung down would include the Steyr MPi69, Beretta 38A, ppsh-41. I'm fairly certain the Owen would be right up there as well but I won't rate it until I've spent some time with one and I think I've lost my chance. Had a very nice parts set for a few years that should have been built up as a post-sample but I got talked out of it before I got around to it. Dearly wish I had that kit back.

Hate the Uzi, don't think much of the MP5, and the Thompson is grossly over-rated although very interesting historically. I'd just as soon have a dummy Thompson as a real one. Don't really enjoy shooting them.

Otis Treekiller
February 28, 2015, 22:39
Don't know about "best", but the Beretta PM12S is far and away my favorite. Nothing else comes close. Next rung down would include the Steyr MPi69, Beretta 38A, ppsh-41. I'm fairly certain the Owen would be right up there as well but I won't rate it until I've spent some time with one and I think I've lost my chance. Had a very nice parts set for a few years that should have been built up as a post-sample but I got talked out of it before I got around to it. Dearly wish I had that kit back.

Hate the Uzi, don't think much of the MP5, and the Thompson is grossly over-rated although very interesting historically. I'd just as soon have a dummy Thompson as a real one. Don't really enjoy shooting them.

Agree on the Thompson. Heavy, not well balanced at all with a lot of muzzle climb.

Enjoy the Suomi, but still very heavy and a bit awkward to handle.

Frankly, the one that I've found with the best combination of handling characteristics and cyclic rate, at least in WW2 era guns, was the Sten.

Dr Shock
February 28, 2015, 22:59
Swedish K is a good gun. 15 years later I am still kicking myself for not buying one for a paltry $1600 when I had the chance. I just like the long roar of the ppsh and the sound of casings still hitting the ground for 3 or 4 seconds after a mag dump.

Beretta PM12 is an all around awesome gun. Stays on target, nice cyclic rate for actually hitting things. Lanchester has a nice feel to it. MP5 is just boring to shoot. I cant think of a more akward weapon than a Thompson. How men defended them selves with it while being fired upon is beyond me. Grease gun would have been way more effective in combat.

Artful
February 28, 2015, 23:37
"best" for what?
I like AR platform because you can change out (at least on some models)
to be 223, 9mm, 300 whisper etc. What's not to like about "Barbie"

UZI is like that - want to run 9mm, 45 acp, 40 S&W, 22LR - good to go.
Cheap magazines - lots of options available

PPSH is sweet - drum - hits hard - flat shooting - problem is 7.62x25 isn't
as cheap as it used to be.

Swedish K / Port Said / S&W76 all pretty nice shooters

Thompson some of the best history out there.

Sten history is there depending upon construction so is function.

Sterling - Yeah, best of Sten in improved version.

HK - not so much to me, seems overpriced for what it is - If I'm spending that much I'd go AUG or Tavor.:aug:

So best for what?

Bawana jim
February 28, 2015, 23:46
Best in your opinion for what the gun should do.

Stranger
March 01, 2015, 00:52
Wow, this is open to lots of interpretation. I will go with 9x19 Para as a caliber and stick with what I have experience shooting.

Of classic subguns, I would say HK MP5 followed very closely by the Mini-Uzi. These are my two favorite to shoot.

Of the latest generation, I would say the Scorpion Evo 3 or the Sig MPX. (I didn't get the shoot them in a side-by-side comparison, so I can't say which I like better.)

The classics are available for purchase (for those with the cash). Barring some miraculous change in law, the latest subguns will be forever dealer samples and LEO only.

Bawana jim
March 01, 2015, 01:07
Well I formed my opinion over many years around sub guns. I am not an expert. I just have been involved with them in years of matches and shooting events. A lot of the time I was RO in the event and watched first hand how things handled and run. On many occasions I shot guns to test fire them and even more owners let me run their guns.

Some guns were in large collections that you just don't see many of but I was allowed to shoot and evaluate them. In my small collection that changed over the years I developed a standard to what I thought was a good sub gun.

What is difficult is a lot of guns out there are builds, not original made by the factory guns. Many of the builds just don't run well and a number of them fall apart on the firing line. There is quite a mix of original and build guns even in the high dollar guns and watching them run speaks to me which are the better guns.

Jams, seems like at one time or another they all jam for some reason. Bad ammo or mags, dirty gun or just a really bad build but I think everything jams. Some guns are really easy to clear their jams and others the gun has to be taken apart to get it cleared. Some rarely jam but when they do the gun would be out of action in a real fight.

Pick up a subgun and check the fit to your shoulder while looking through the sites. I believe some really great guns out there failed commercial because the sights were not made well to operate the weapon. One constant in all the matches was how was the guns ability to hit targets of various sizes. Some great running smooth operating guns have the worst sites I have ever seen.

And now since I have totally bored you the last item is how well the gun handles. Which includes mag changes, weak hand shooting and physical placement into firing position. Lots of differences here that you would have to learn to make the gun run. Grip safeties forward and aft, mag levers and bolt hold opens, closed bolt or open bolt and gun furniture fit to individual. Even pulling the bolt back has a number of different conditions and most important is weight of the gun.

So now that I have better set the criteria which subguns are best?

Texgunner
March 01, 2015, 01:16
I've only shot a few, Uzi, Mac-10 and the only one I own. A Mk II Sten, 1944 Long Branch, contract for Nationalist Chinese Army. It's my all-time best "deal" for a gun too. A friend gave it to me; all I have in it is the $200 transfer. Nice guy that friend.:)

SAFN49
March 01, 2015, 01:23
I think this thread would be easier if it were worst sub guns ever.

Worst ever.

Any thing MAC in stock form.

GIshooter
March 01, 2015, 02:23
Shot quite a few different ones in the military. Stateside for training and overseas in different theaters. Played with some interesting stuff. Soviet PPSh is okay, Swedish K even better. Favorite? Probably the Suomi.

RetiredNSmilin308
March 01, 2015, 03:45
One could argue the situational merits of one sub gun over another all day.. But, when its time to start massacring tvs, junk cars and setting off powder charges, I'll take the ppsh 41 with a drum every time.

Dr Shock, As I read the title of this thread, I was going to say just that. Your post just confirms what we both already know.

The PPsh-41 thinks it shoots a pistol round, but behaves more like a carbine. Not many subguns push their pills out approaching 2,000 FPS.

RetiredNSmilin308
March 01, 2015, 03:47
I think this thread would be easier if it were worst sub guns ever.

Worst ever.

Any thing MAC in stock form.

I nominate the Reising. Not from experience, but from reading others experiences.

gaijinsamurai
March 01, 2015, 10:39
I'm not an expert, but having fired and field stripped a few, my favorites are the Uzi and the H&K UMP.

I'd like to try out the Beretta Model 12.

Wecsogery
March 01, 2015, 11:21
Jams, seems like at one time or another they all jam for some reason. Bad ammo or mags, dirty gun or just a really bad build but I think everything jams. Some guns are really easy to clear their jams and others the gun has to be taken apart to get it cleared. Some rarely jam but when they do the gun would be out of action in a real fight.


Good point, that applies equally or more to battle rifles and intermediate caliber autoloading carbines.

Bawana jim
March 01, 2015, 11:47
I think subguns have to fit the man and not all guns nor men are the same. I have seen some men who can shoot most any gun well but when they find the perfect gun for them it's like their skill level doubles. Saw one fellow that blended with a Madson 1950 9mm that could use trigger control for single or auto and consistently hit without using sights.

I think if a man finds the right gun that runs well he would be really surprised what he could do with it. A subgun should fit right just like a hand made pair of boots. A good machine operator with a tool that really fits his skill is awesome to watch in a match.

Sampson1986
March 01, 2015, 12:25
As far as submachine guns go, I've shot a full size Uzi, a Thompson, a KRISS, a couple of Stens (WWII and tube gun), a Madsen, and a MAC 10.

Only one I didn't like was the KRISS.

Invictus77
March 01, 2015, 12:33
Agree on the Thompson. Heavy, not well balanced at all with a lot of muzzle climb.



Perhaps, but a Tommy can't be beat in "fun factor" to put a smile on your face :)

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/n8nf9om5SPc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

tdb59
March 01, 2015, 12:53
Not a true sub, but I do like the M2 Carbine.



.

Invictus77
March 01, 2015, 13:12
Not a true sub, but I do like the M2 Carbine.



.

One of my close friends has an M2 on the way that should clear in the next month or two. I bought a couple of 30 round mags here in the MP last week to give him as a "Congrats on the new baby" gift when it shows up.

That reminds me, I need to stock up on 30 cal as well :)

Sampson1986
March 01, 2015, 13:30
Not a true sub, but I do like the M2 Carbine.


Right on.

RetiredNSmilin308
March 01, 2015, 13:39
Perhaps, but a Tommy can't be beat in "fun factor" to put a smile on your face :)

<IFRAME height=315 src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/n8nf9om5SPc" frameBorder=0 width=420 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

Invictus77...I have heard that for like 100% of everyone that has shot one. That makes about 8 people that have all said the same thing you did, so it MUST BE right.

Dr Shock
March 01, 2015, 18:38
Dr Shock, As I read the title of this thread, I was going to say just that. Your post just confirms what we both already know.

The PPsh-41 thinks it shoots a pistol round, but behaves more like a carbine. Not many subguns push their pills out approaching 2,000 FPS.

AMEN!

Worst gun for me has to be the sten and thats probably only because I have worked on so many broken ones. They are always running away or have parts falling off them.. So many SOT holders dont actually do their own work, unless it involves a tube wrapped in paper and a viscous dremel attack.

What about scariest gun to shoot? For me, PPD (Direct relative of PPSH) Noisy, Insane rate of fire, hot fractured brass raining down on your head and then its all over before you know it. Better than any roller coaster.

Invictus77
March 01, 2015, 18:48
Perhaps, but a Tommy can't be beat in "fun factor" to put a smile on your face :)

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/n8nf9om5SPc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

To answer a PM and for anyone else that wondered, yes that is me :)

Bawana jim
March 01, 2015, 19:28
From what I have seen the Sten that has been made from kits is the worst running gun. Most seem to use cheap muffler tube and the trunions separate as they try to operate them. I have seen tubes crack up the sides of guns. I have seen some really good running Stens but not many were built right. Try before you buy unless you all ready plan to rebuild it right.

Artful
March 02, 2015, 12:59
Best in your opinion for what the gun should do.

Heck any of them - Subgun for me is to put a grin on my face :D

Bawana jim
March 02, 2015, 13:13
Heck any of them - Subgun for me is to put a grin on my face :D

Ya if they run they are fun.:biggrin:

Brian in MN
March 03, 2015, 12:29
PPS-43

Artful
March 03, 2015, 14:49
I nominate the Reising. Not from experience, but from reading others experiences.

My experience with Reising is that kept clean and oiled and feed well it a
decent accurate SMG - problem was it was built like a sewing machine and didn't do well with people who worked in dirt, sand and mud and didn't have time to do the required maintenance.

But great for a range toy

http://nozombies.com/reising.JPG

greenpeas
March 04, 2015, 15:23
I have my own opinions but would like to hear yours, what is the best sub gun out there?

In my opinion the m16 doesn't qualify as a subgun so I would have to go with an MP5.

GOVT1911
March 04, 2015, 16:08
I'm absolutely no expert, but have been lucky enough to be able to shoot a few different subguns.

PPSH (while deployed)....shot up all the ammo we could find for it and then had to destroy it :( But was fun while it lasted.

Stirling (integerally suppressed) was FUN to shoot, and I carried it in my truck in Baghdad to kill time with whenever I could get extra 9mm ammo. REALLY wish I could have brought it home.

M3a1 Greasegun. Was issued it as a Track Driver back in 90 during Desert Storm. Was only able to fire a couple hundred rounds out of it there, then we turned them in when we got back to the States. :( LOADS of fun to play with, super simple and interesting to feel the "Chug Chug Chug" when shooting it.

Uzi Full size. Ran a BUNCH of ammo through it in 9mm, fun and compact, but the ergonomics of the folding stock sucked. Can't beat for Cool Factor, though

Thompson Was cool to shoot because of the history and I felt like SGT Saunders from COMBAT! Actually carrying one in combat? No thanks.

MP5. Meh. I guess it was fun, it was the first suppressed subgun I ever shot. I've never been a fan, but I was shooting my rich Uncle's ammo ;)


If I could own any one of these? M3a1 Greasegun, no question. Not for any practical purpose, but just because I dig it.

Topbanana
March 04, 2015, 16:14
I've never shot a Thompson, I've always had the idea that it could be a passable carbine in semi-auto?

If I could have any NFA toy, it would either be that or a MP5K-PDW.

Again, never shot one, I do have a airsoft one and it is pure sex to handle.

Stoney
March 04, 2015, 16:21
I'd like to have a American 180 with several of the big drums

Otis Treekiller
March 04, 2015, 16:30
I'd like to have a American 180 with several of the big drums


Hope you got a big stash of .22LR! :)

Stoney
March 04, 2015, 16:31
I do

gunplumber
March 04, 2015, 17:39
Worst gun for me has to be the sten

Out of context.

The STEN is probably the best SMG ever produced - in as much as perfectly fitting it's mission - get the most guns in the most hands as fast and cheap as possible, while the factories are being bombed every night.

The PPSh 43 reduced manufacturing cost over the 41, and arguably has a better cartridge and feed system, but still doesn't match the $10 ($72 (today's cost) production cost. But for what was needed, at the time, it really kicked ass.

The MP40 was more refined, but at a time when Germany couldn't afford more refined. They refused to put their German anal-retentiveness aside for the expediency of mass production. A half million ugly, mediocre guns in the hands of the troops, is far more effective at winning a war than a much smaller amount of superior guns. In some cases, quantity is a quality of it's own.

The STEN had a lot of flaws by today's standards, but in context, it was brilliant.

The Sterling probably has the best magazine, but it's still an overly complicated 1st Generation gun - try to deploy that stock with any speed . . .

The Uzi is also brilliant, and a true 2nd Generation gun, but it is still direct blowback requiring the massive bolt and 10 pound weight.


The MP5 is a 3rd generation gun and probably among the best when considering all factors. But it still lacks the ergonomics of an AR-15/9. Not the most compact, but a lot easier to mount optics to than the MP5.

So for any evaluation, one has to put it in the contest of Mission requirements. As those requirements change, so does the evaluation of the candidates.

NFADLR
March 04, 2015, 20:43
Your forgetting a kg99 for worst subgun... The MAC10 was fun in 45acp with the 40 rnd mags.

Also loved the supressed Sterling with one tax stamp was money saving as well. Saved 200.00 over the 45acp Mac 10 with its sionics can.

I think this thread would be easier if it were worst sub guns ever.

Worst ever.

Any thing MAC in stock form.

GIshooter
March 04, 2015, 20:57
Yes, the STEN was made for production in large numbers. I've never fired one. But would like to. We didn't do too bad cranking out numerous M3 and M3A1s. I've fired several of each over the years both CONUS and OCONUS. Most of my experience is with the various MP-5s (SD, A2, A3, K) since we had quite a few in the arms room. Right behind that is the UZI for trigger time. We had a rack of like new M-2s but I never personally got a allotment of ammo in order to shoot them. Hindsight being 20/20 I should have bought some out of pocket and taken a couple to the range for FAM fire. Thompsons were easier to get out since we did get .45ACP for the grease guns and 1911s. If it ate 9mm then it would get drug out to the range fairly regularly along with the other tools of the trade. It was fun teaching some of the support troops to shoot and seeing the grin on their face the first time they emptied a subgun.
GOVT1911: if you liked shooting a PPSh-41 you would love a Suomi K-31.

grumpy1
March 04, 2015, 21:36
I give a second vote for the American Arms 180. Just wish I could feed it more often.

The MP5 is fun to shoot if you like hitting what your shooting at.

For pure fun, the Glock 18 put the biggest grin on my face. Yes I know its not a true sub-gun but its close to it.

Artful
March 05, 2015, 00:59
Glock 18 is a :biggrin: making gun - here's bob's toy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw-o3p4ZMtE

FPS Russian and Glock 18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqwPY-0UpjY

SAFN49
March 05, 2015, 01:31
Your forgetting a kg99 for worst subgun... .

That ranks right up there with the spitfire.

partisan50
March 05, 2015, 06:18
I'd like to have a American 180 with several of the big drums

Make sure that they are latched properly or they might fly off like a frisbee and dump the ammo out all over.:rofl:

gunplumber
March 05, 2015, 08:53
Glock 18 is a :biggrin: making gun - here's bob's toy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw-o3p4ZMtE

FPS Russian and Glock 18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqwPY-0UpjY

Glock 18 is not a subgun. It is a machinepistol. If we're including machinepistols, I really like the Vz61.


<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Arp6JvzmFTU?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Wecsogery
March 05, 2015, 15:07
From what I have seen the Sten that has been made from kits is the worst running gun. Most seem to use cheap muffler tube and the trunions separate as they try to operate them. I have seen tubes crack up the sides of guns. I have seen some really good running Stens but not many were built right. Try before you buy unless you all ready plan to rebuild it right.
I've fired a Sten, and it was a good one. I liked it a lot. Not as much as I liked the MP40, but subjectively I enjoyed it more than the MP5. There's just something about shooting such a dirt-simple gun, when it's running properly.

Sampson1986
March 05, 2015, 17:37
"It's so cute!"

I lol'd. :rofl:

Invictus77
March 05, 2015, 21:12
The MP5 is fun to shoot if you like hitting what your shooting at.


....and quiet too with two stamps :)



<a href="http://s32.photobucket.com/user/mlcasson/media/MP5_zps7rykua7w.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/mlcasson/MP5_zps7rykua7w.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo MP5_zps7rykua7w.jpg"/></a>

Glucker
March 05, 2015, 21:29
Personally I'd say the Mini-Uzi is the best, as easy to shoot as the full size Uzi but alot easier to maneuver. And of course lighter. I also like the Model B type sights that all (AFAIK) Minis have, over the Model A type sights that all (again, AFAIK and excluding converted semis) full size Uzis have.

I also love the S & W 76.

spider991
March 05, 2015, 21:58
HK UMP45...ugly but wow what a gun, shoots like a dream.....mp5 9mm nice too..

Skilter
March 05, 2015, 23:40
I usually like anything that KEV says, but I will disagree with a caveat.... I love the Mini-Uzi. One trigger pull and 3 rounds go perfectly in a triangle at 25 feet.

Outside of that... personal preference... I really like the Lage 45 PS lower product.

The MP5/10 would be my choice if I had an F3 gig and an SOT availability...

open ear shooter
March 06, 2015, 07:55
Steyr AUG 9mm, Mini UZI and then Grease Gun M3A1 :]

Brian in MN
March 06, 2015, 11:28
Of the WWII era stuff I think the PPS 43 is the nicest blend of inexpensive, compactness, quality, safety, reasonable weight, ergonomics and reliability. I also think that they were much more well liked by their users than the Sten. While that is getting a bit into the intangible I do believe that confidence in one's weapon is important. Add to that the light weight of the ammunition and they are pretty hard to beat. The infantryman with a 7.62 x 25 can probably carry 2 - 3 times more ammunition than someone with a Tommy or a grease gun.

AliYahu
March 06, 2015, 11:49
M3a1 Greasegun. Was issued it as a Track Driver back in 90 during Desert Storm. Was only able to fire a couple hundred rounds out of it there, then we turned them in when we got back to the States. :( LOADS of fun to play with, super simple and interesting to feel the "Chug Chug Chug" when shooting it.

These used to be so cheap, you could barely give them away! They fit in a shoebox, and were rarely registered because the tax stamp was far more than the gun was worth. Now, not so much!

Uzi Full size. Ran a BUNCH of ammo through it in 9mm, fun and compact, but the ergonomics of the folding stock sucked. Can't beat for Cool Factor, though

For a shooter, the (as-designed) wood stock is far superior. When deployed in Israel, unless it was SF guys, it was usually with a wood stock.

Eli

SAFN49
March 06, 2015, 12:47
These used to be so cheap, you could barely give them away! They fit in a shoebox, and were rarely registered because the tax stamp was far more than the gun was worth. Now, not so much!

Eli

Most of the NFA stuff was that way. Who in their right mind would pay < $200 for a firearm or suppressor and then pay another $200 for a stamp??? Colt M16's used to be less than Colt AR15's because of they couldn't get rid of them. Nobody wanted to pay the extra $200.

If only we had known.

As far as bullet hose subguns I would still give an edge to anything 9mm. The days of cheap 7.62x25 are long gone. The M50 while a great subgun had limited mag capacity and shot .45. M3 also .45 and it is almost impossible to find original 9mm parts to do a conversion.

So I will stick with the Swedish K or Suomi 9mm with drums as the best most funest subguns.

jdmcomp
March 06, 2015, 14:24
I think this thread would be easier if it were worst sub guns ever.

Worst ever.

Any thing MAC in stock form.

The Smith&Wesson light rifle

Bubacus
March 06, 2015, 18:29
I think the Sweedish K takes the cake, but gotta say the MP 34 is a great gun anyone can shoot...

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/S19jdsrlagY?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Lee Carpentieri
March 07, 2015, 01:32
Hope you guys know that certain SMG's come in 5.56x45mm also like the Colt M16's A1's and A2's in Commando configurations as I also have a Colt M16A1 Commando too and it's a real one not a clone or wannebe. It's listed as an SMG by Colt and BATFE.

I personally like the Swedish K with it's slower firing rate at 600RPM and if you feather the trigger and it will shoot single shots very easily, Plus the ability to change to different mag capacities and it's weight which can make it very controlable.

SAFN49
March 07, 2015, 01:40
Hope you guys know that certain SMG's come in 5.56x45mm also like the Colt M16's A1's and A2's in Commando configurations as I also have a Colt M16A1 Commando too and it's a real one not a clone or wannebe. It's listed as an SMG by Colt and BATFE.

I personally like the Swedish K with it's slower firing rate at 600RPM and if you feather the trigger and it will shoot single shots very easily, Plus the ability to change to different mag capacities and it's weight which can make it very controlable.

Interesting, my 10.5" bbl M16 is listed as a machinegun.

Luv some Swedish K

Texgunner
March 07, 2015, 08:34
Lee, does the BATFE apply the same rationale to the Krinkovs?

gunplumber
March 07, 2015, 09:25
Hope you guys know that certain SMG's come in 5.56x45mm also like the Colt M16's A1's and A2's in Commando configurations as I also have a Colt M16A1 Commando too and it's a real one not a clone or wannebe. It's listed as an SMG by Colt and BATFE.

No, wrong again - ATF does not list anything as "sub" machinegun. It is not an NFA class. A full auto .22 or .50 is simply "machinegun".

I don't consider anything in a pistol caliber to be a submachinegun, only those shoulder fired guns in pistol calibers. That has been the industry definition since WWII. If you want to call your short barreled AR-15 in 5.56 a subgun, you are free to do so. Nobody else will . . . . unless it's in 9x19mm.

My 5.45 Krinkovs are just short barreled rifles.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/ak/smith-ak-bulgy-03.jpg

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/ak/smith-ak-bulgy-01.jpg

SAFN49
March 07, 2015, 09:52
No, wrong again - ATF does not list anything as "sub" machinegun. It is not an NFA class. A full auto .22 or .50 is simply "machinegun".



Just curious.
Then why does it have Submachine gun typed in the description on some of the form 4's?
Dealer just typing it in there wrong and ATF doesn't correct it?

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s30/djm540idjm540i/F4_zpsuajbp6fj.jpg (http://s148.photobucket.com/user/djm540idjm540i/media/F4_zpsuajbp6fj.jpg.html)

Texgunner
March 07, 2015, 09:56
I had always understood a "sub-machinegun" was one that fired a pistol caliber, one that was "sub-rifle caliber", hence the term.

Mark, is the second Krinkov pictured also in 5.45? That looks like 7.62x39 magazine, due to the curvature.

gunplumber
March 07, 2015, 10:28
Just curious.
Then why does it have Submachine gun typed in the description on some of the form 4's?
Dealer just typing it in there wrong and ATF doesn't correct it?

Yes.

There are only 5 categories.

MG
SBR
SBS
AOW
DD

SMG is not an NFA defined firearm type. Just like it is incorrect for a title 1 firearm to be listed on the 4473 or bound book as a "bolt action rifle" or "side by side shotgun" The categories are

Pistol
Revolver
Rifle
Shotgun
Frame or Receiver (other)

Mark, is the second Krinkov pictured also in 5.45? That looks like 7.62x39 magazine, due to the curvature.

Yes

I got rid of my 7.62 family and now just do 5.45.



http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/ak/ak-arsbuild-bulgy-47-family-plum.jpg


http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/ak/ak-family-01.jpg

Sampson1986
March 07, 2015, 12:36
Just curious.
Then why does it have Submachine gun typed in the description on some of the form 4's?
Dealer just typing it in there wrong and ATF doesn't correct it?

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s30/djm540idjm540i/F4_zpsuajbp6fj.jpg (http://s148.photobucket.com/user/djm540idjm540i/media/F4_zpsuajbp6fj.jpg.html)

Perhaps that is what the maker put in the box when it was manufactured and nobody ever corrected it?

I've heard the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record is FUBAR and that the ATF has been slowly fixing some of the errors.

ncjeeper
March 07, 2015, 19:08
The best sub guns are the ones in your safe. :)

Lee Carpentieri
March 08, 2015, 02:49
From what I've been told by Firearms manufactures it's how they determined what classification they made the weapons as. My Commando show's the listing from Colt to the FFL/SOT-3 dealer as an SMG and I'm the second owner of the weapon. Paperwork was copied from the original form-3 from Colt.

Problem I find these days is, Unless you know exactly how the weapon left the factory, Do you really know what it is as far as model designation?

With BATFE it seems like nobody stays at that agency long term anymore and by the time they do get someone trained up to speed, They quit as they have found other agencies to work for or leave the Govt. altogether as BATFE is considered one of the lowest paid agencies within the US Govt. Like they say, You get what you pay for.

partisan50
March 08, 2015, 07:47
In the ATFs eyes, there is only one class of "Machine Gun" regardless if someone put "sub", "Light", or "heavy" in front of Machine Gun.

gunplumber
March 08, 2015, 09:55
yep - the type is defined in statute. Now "Submachinegun" can be listed in model, or additional description. But the "type" is only as I listed, because the NFA does not recognize a "sub" as a firearm type, and the receiver is still a machinegun if you strip all the other parts off it.

The NFA database is full of errors, and "agents" have been caught in the past merely throwing records away that were piling too deep. Not fired, by the way. I had to fight for months over several items they insisted I was accountable for, that I'd never heard of, or they had approved the transfers years before.

So it's no wonder that there are records with firearms identified with designations that don't exist in the law.

Tailback
March 08, 2015, 17:07
Dangit Mark! I wish you would quit posting those pictures. They make me sick with envy. I kick myself in the butt everytime I think of all the money I wasted on stupid crap (like my ex GF) back when pristine unfired kits were a dime a dozen.

Yes.

There are only 5 categories.

MG
SBR
SBS
AOW
DD

SMG is not an NFA defined firearm type. Just like it is incorrect for a title 1 firearm to be listed on the 4473 or bound book as a "bolt action rifle" or "side by side shotgun" The categories are

Pistol
Revolver
Rifle
Shotgun
Frame or Receiver (other)



Yes

I got rid of my 7.62 family and now just do 5.45.



http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/ak/ak-arsbuild-bulgy-47-family-plum.jpg


http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/ak/ak-family-01.jpg

MG Johnny
March 09, 2015, 08:31
OK I do not comment much, but I am going to give my 2 cents.
I have been Blessed to own a few Sub Guns. M11A1-.380,M-11-9mm,Uzi-9mm/.45/.22.Tec 9mm.
My favorite is the ZK-383 in 9mm. Runs no matter what with any ammo. The rate of fire can be regulated by removing a weight from the bolt. Reminds me of an MP-40 at that moment when you pull the trigger and you feel the bolt release in anticipation of what happens next. Very accurate.
I'm sure an expert here can educate all of us more on this weapon, I only like to shoot it.
Johnny

Bawana jim
March 09, 2015, 09:39
OK I do not comment much, but I am going to give my 2 cents.
I have been Blessed to own a few Sub Guns. M11A1-.380,M-11-9mm,Uzi-9mm/.45/.22.Tec 9mm.
My favorite is the ZK-383 in 9mm. Runs no matter what with any ammo. The rate of fire can be regulated by removing a weight from the bolt. Reminds me of an MP-40 at that moment when you pull the trigger and you feel the bolt release in anticipation of what happens next. Very accurate.
I'm sure an expert here can educate all of us more on this weapon, I only like to shoot it.
Johnny

Not an expert by any means but the ZK is one of those guns in the really cool catagory. Two of the guys that shoot in the club have these built from parts kits and they run great. Like the bipod and the quick change barrel. Wish I could get more trigger time behind one.

Bawana jim
March 09, 2015, 11:32
One subgun I found really interesting is the Walther MPK. Great handling and rate of fire brings it on target just about as fast as I think. It does have a major fault in its sites, worst I have ever seen and probably lead to the failure of the gun on a commercial basis. Just opinion of course.

faljamesw1
March 26, 2015, 18:51
One subgun I found really interesting is the Walther MPK. Great handling and rate of fire brings it on target just about as fast as I think. It does have a major fault in its sites, worst I have ever seen and probably lead to the failure of the gun on a commercial basis. Just opinion of course.
Yes I like the MPK also. I have mostly owned or have fired several Thompsons, Stens, MP40, Madsen M50, UZI, Port Said, MKA 760, Beretta 12, TEC 9, Walther MPK, American 180, Reising M50, Ingram M10, M11/9, M2 carbine, M16 commando, AK74U, VZ61, PM63, Glock18, MP5, PPSH41, PPS43 (both 7.62 & 9), AUG 9mm & 223, Ruger select-fire 10/22, MGV-176, select-fire broomhandle and others. I would have to check my paperwork to remember all of them. Not all would be considered a subgun but their size and or caliber might qualify it so I included what ones I remember.
The MP5 was one of the most accurate but I preferred a 10" M16 over it. Again with the AUG 9mm, I prefer the same AUG in 223. The Stens were crude but shot reliable and accurate. MP40 not quite so much. Thompsons had the Bonnie and Clyde era about them plus good looks with their machined steel and wood especially in the model 21. The Thompsons all shoot quite well but are heavy. The Reising M50 is much more accurate than any of the Thompsons, but more crude. The tube guns; ie: Beretta 12, Port Said, MKA 760/S&W76 all shoot pretty good with my favorite of this group being the Carl Gustaf M/45 or Egypt Port Said. The Port Said seems to digest any 9mm ammo. Out of the machine pistols/subguns: Glock, Skorpion, Broomhandle, the Glock was the best. However, I never shot the Glock with a stock so I don't think it is a real subgun unless a stock is attached. The Polish PM63 was possibility the first PDW and is quite interesting. I like the rate reducer of the PM63 and Skorpion. I've never had any problems with the Walther MPK the UZI or the Madsen. These shoot as well as the tube guns, all open bolt. The MGV-176 with its 161 round drums can shoot up a lot of 22 ammo but after a couple of drums will need cleaning, and the Ruger 10/22 select-fire seems to keep going no matter what. The only time you want to put the Ruger 10/22 down is when your fingers get sore loading the mags. FYI the MGV-176 is the YUGO version of the American 180 and takes similiar drums. Its interesting to see the difference between the PPSH41 and the newer PPS43. But if I had to have just one it would have to be either a short M16 or AK74U. However, these may not qualify as a true subgun. They all have their history and all are fun to shoot and maybe now are all obsolete.

paco
April 08, 2015, 15:41
Subguns :D

Well, i'm luck to have a lot of'm here in Belgium. all (legaly) full auto.

5 stens (MK2,3 and 5)
Scorpio 7.65mm
german MP44
M2 carbine
Greasegun M3
Some thompsons M1, M1A1
Uzi's IMI and FN
MP12 (FN)
Vigneron M2
H&K Mp5
Some shorties in 223 and 308

Since i'm in a guncollectors association, i testfired a lot of other MP's and SMG's. (don't have to clean'm)

About the full auto pistols, it's just insane, but fun. (mind the ceiling)
SMG: The MP5 is the most accurate, but not the most reliable.
The STEN MK5 is way better as the other stens. (good sights)
Fired some Swiss SMGs like the MP43, they run like a clockwork.
Don't want to go to war with: MAC10-11, B&T's, microUZI, Thompson, M3...
Impressive firepower: Suomi and PPSH ( i saw one blown up by using a 9mm cartridge :facepalm: ) and the UAS12 Full auto shotgun

My conclusion: fire (fast)semiauto and aim in order to hit something.
I can fire 14 rounds in a classic 10meter Vdril (2 poppers left, 1 central IPSC60%middle and 2 popers right)in 6-7 seconds.
I still have 16 rounds left and have 14 hits.
In full auto. I'm out of all ammo in 3 seconds and have perhaps 3 hits.

Full auto; use the MAG58, MG42, Bren...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a254/joeplf/kamer/DSCN6815_zpsc7ef8ec4.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/joeplf/media/kamer/DSCN6815_zpsc7ef8ec4.jpg.html)
The WW2 section of my room

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a254/joeplf/kamer/DSCN6753_zps83f506b1.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/joeplf/media/kamer/DSCN6753_zps83f506b1.jpg.html)
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a254/joeplf/kamer/IMG_0027_zps1b3ed632.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/joeplf/media/kamer/IMG_0027_zps1b3ed632.jpg.html)
Ever tried a full auto FN49 in 30-06 :biggrin: Mind the guy behind you

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a254/joeplf/kamer/kamer_0311.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/joeplf/media/kamer/kamer_0311.jpg.html)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a254/joeplf/STEN/DSCF2314.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/joeplf/media/STEN/DSCF2314.jpg.html)
MK5 rules!
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a254/joeplf/STEN/DSCF2189.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/joeplf/media/STEN/DSCF2189.jpg.html)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a254/joeplf/STEN/SDC10004.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/joeplf/media/STEN/SDC10004.jpg.html)
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a254/joeplf/M1%20Carbine%20%20FA/DSCF0031_zps8afbc530.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/joeplf/media/M1%20Carbine%20%20FA/DSCF0031_zps8afbc530.jpg.html)
Mind the fun-switch...
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a254/joeplf/fn%20uzi/IMG_0358.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/joeplf/media/fn%20uzi/IMG_0358.jpg.html)
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a254/joeplf/fn%20uzi/fn%20Mod12/IMG_0364.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/joeplf/media/fn%20uzi/fn%20Mod12/IMG_0364.jpg.html)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a254/joeplf/IMG_0018_zps9aab5f9b.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/joeplf/media/IMG_0018_zps9aab5f9b.jpg.html)
A day at the range...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a254/joeplf/Glock18/th_glock18.mp4 (http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a254/joeplf/Glock18/glock18.mp4)
Useless...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a254/joeplf/kamer/DSCF4409_zps356984bb.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/joeplf/media/kamer/DSCF4409_zps356984bb.jpg.html)
They made great stuff in WW2!

Paco out

Sampson1986
April 09, 2015, 17:40
Damnit, Paco.

Every time you post pictures, I think about moving to Belgium.

:biggrin:

Super Dakę
April 09, 2015, 19:33
Of all the sub-guns that I've owned and/or fired (of friends), the Sterling MK-IV is still my favorite (my MK-V is still pending ATF approval). Simple, reliable, controllable, eats anything. If I ever had to liquidate my collection, the MK-IV will be the one I keep.

thunderchicken
April 10, 2015, 10:17
What, not a single vote for the MP 18? :tongue:

Blackmore
April 10, 2015, 11:54
Swedish K all the way.



<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OGwHNrkv__I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

paco
April 10, 2015, 13:37
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OGwHNrkv__I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Who took a video of my garage?
:D

open ear shooter
April 11, 2015, 19:06
Who took a video of my garage?
:D[/QUOTE]

PACO No M-16 in your collection are you Racist against Black Rifles ?

BigBoy1
April 12, 2015, 10:36
My favorite SMGs are the 38 series of guns from Beretta. The series started out with the MP38A and during the war, manufacturing simplification were done to increase production. The current M12 is the lastest in that series of SMGs. The very first SMG I got was the Beretta MP38/42, a very compact and easy to shoot SMG. I got if from the GI who brought it home and registered it during the 1968 Amnesty. The dual triggers, front for semi-auto and the rear for full-auto eliminate the need for any selector lever and mode of fire can be changed as fast as you can move your finger.

It is interesting to note that the current Beretta M12 magazine are identical to the 38 series of SMGs magazines. I bought the M12 magazine and use them in the 38 Series SMGs for shooting and leave the original MP38 magazines at home.

I was fortunate enough to find another Beretta. This was the MP38A and this was obtained from the son of the GI who brought it home and registered during the 1968 Amnesty. I have been fortunate enough to find most of the accessories which accompany these wonderful SMGs.

Here is the MP38A.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BTZM2e8PvZNFa5-g5Sr4vFCzoAsZ_uUeC4S0CRFyyA=w276-h207-p-no

Here is the MP38/42.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Skk6nu7ZyLHUK5KkbRn2uNFju6UTbU_COBXKZKtfNw=w276-h207-p-no

paco
April 12, 2015, 15:26
Who took a video of my garage?
:D

PACO No M-16 in your collection are you Racist against Black Rifles ?[/QUOTE]

You didn't look good...
Bushmaster, S&W, Colt... Nothing special.
The oldschool Vietnamera M16 is hard to find here.
Paco

johndoe
April 18, 2015, 11:22
....and quiet too with two stamps :)



<a href="http://s32.photobucket.com/user/mlcasson/media/MP5_zps7rykua7w.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/mlcasson/MP5_zps7rykua7w.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo MP5_zps7rykua7w.jpg"/></a>
I have shot macs, tecs, and stens, but the Mp5 is the nicest subgun I have ever shot. on full auto they stay on target, and even group well.

ArtBanks
April 21, 2015, 14:01
I am going to be different. I usually am. I think the FN P-90 is one of the nicest and easiest to deploy.

mg34dan
April 22, 2015, 18:14
Don't let anyone kid you, the best sub gun hands down is an MP5. Here's my RR PP Fleming MP5 with Swiss "type" 3RB lower and Swiss marked Vortex flash hider.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll70/MG34_Dan/MP5-GSG5/MVC-004S.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll70/MG34_Dan/MP5-GSG5/MVC-048S_zps6e54fb77.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll70/MG34_Dan/MP5-GSG5/MVC-003S.jpg

Swiss Army MP5 Manual showing lower:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll70/MG34_Dan/Swiss%20Army%20MP5%20Manual/SN150354.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll70/MG34_Dan/Swiss%20Army%20MP5%20Manual/SN150355.jpg

kev
April 23, 2015, 10:25
Meh. Sold mine last year along with the Uzi and I don't plan to miss either. Two grossly over-rated rattleguns if you ask me.

jaflowers
April 29, 2015, 15:58
I am going to be different. I usually am. I think the FN P-90 is one of the nicest and easiest to deploy.

I recently got into that game. I'm not much of a fan of small (sub) caliber rifles but I like this little guy for close range shooting/home defense. Lots of firepower with no recoil and very lightweight.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u196/jaflowers/PS90_zpsnoyohcj1.jpg

ArtBanks
April 30, 2015, 04:45
I recently got into that game. I'm not much of a fan of small (sub) caliber rifles but I like this little guy for close range shooting/home defense. Lots of firepower with no recoil and very lightweight.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u196/jaflowers/PS90_zpsnoyohcj1.jpg

If you have a chance to try her out to a couple hundred yards, I think you will be very pleased. I have been reloading this cartridge for a few years now and it has become one of my favorites. The local coyote population is learning to steer clear of my place.

SteelGreyML
May 09, 2015, 14:27
I recently got into that game. I'm not much of a fan of small (sub) caliber rifles but I like this little guy for close range shooting/home defense. Lots of firepower with no recoil and very lightweight.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u196/jaflowers/PS90_zpsnoyohcj1.jpg

Wow, nice modern smg. Aren't you worried about the 5.7 rounds going thru' the walls in a home self defence scenario. Why not shotgun?

SteelGreyML
May 09, 2015, 14:30
Hey Paco,

How do you like the HK MP7? Is the 4.6mm round any good?

paco
May 09, 2015, 16:34
it's nothing special...

wonderdog451
May 10, 2015, 17:07
I recently got into that game. I'm not much of a fan of small (sub) caliber rifles but I like this little guy for close range shooting/home defense. Lots of firepower with no recoil and very lightweight.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u196/jaflowers/PS90_zpsnoyohcj1.jpg

Personally, I think that the advent of the 300 Blackout has rendered the 5.7x28mm cartridge almost obsolete, At this point, all the PS90/P90 seems to have going for it is it's high magazine capacity.

Bawana jim
May 11, 2015, 10:29
Shot a Beretta 38 last week and gun really shoots straight and runs great. I am not a great shot but did a full mag dump on a target at 25 yards and the group was about six inches..

AliYahu
May 11, 2015, 12:37
Shot a Beretta 38 last week and gun really shoots straight and runs great. I am not a great shot but did a full mag dump on a target at 25 yards and the group was about six inches..

The Beretta 38A or Uzi would be my only choice for a subgun. The Uzi is great, but they're nearly twice the cost of the Beretta, and not twice as much gun!
My late father had nearly everything (he was a dealer for 30 years), and those two were his favorite. The Uzi was his choice for a 'modern' gun (although antiquated today, there isn't much newer transferable) and the 38A for all-around use due to ruggedness, simplicity, reliability, and shootability.

Eli

Driheat
May 19, 2015, 10:20
Mini
http://i.imgur.com/Q2bZ1pZ.jpg

faljamesw1
June 09, 2015, 18:36
I took out a few of my SMGs plus various other guns yesterday and my favorite for the day was my PKM. Not a sub but just my favorite for the day. A little heavy, for a sub, but light for a belt fed MG and very accurate. I'll shoot some more subs shortly when I take out another of my belt fed MG's that will use a scope for long range and a night vision scope for shorter range. I just need to finish working on the ground mount first bringing it to original specs.

Cava3r4
June 24, 2015, 18:48
years ago I got invited to go blasting up in Prescott AZ.
yeah yeah, I know...some of these are NOT "sub machine guns" but a worthwhile "feedback" anyhow.

I got to shoot (I'm putting in order what was EASIEST to hit on a target with at about 70 yards full sized sihouette type)

1) MP 40 in 9mm. this baby shot like it was suspended from a cable in front of me. what you aimed at, you HIT it!! I was told they are (were) about 50K

2) M-16 in 223... yeah yeah, but it is NOT a sub gun

3) Thompson M28 with the 2 pistol grips... fun to shoot.....but heavy to carry and it takes 3 men and a boy to swap out the drum mag and put in a stick mag. (taking out, putting in the drum is difficult)

4) M-14....for SURE NOT a sub gun, but I could get TWO rounds on that sihouette on full auto, but I slinged up TIGHT. 3rd round was heading for the moon.!

5) MINI UZI..... I could not even hit the target. As soon as I touched the trigger, it climbed fAST. I'd shoulder it and aim it into the dirt in front of me 10 yards away, HANG ON TIGHT and squeeze the trigger and it was UNCONTROLLABLE to me.

That was what I got to shoot that day.

In Vietnam we had the M-3 Grease gun as a tank crewmembers weapon. We usually gave it to the driver. we did NOT have the Magazine reloading tool so it was NOT fun loading magazines... you'd cut your fingers. FUN to shoot though. Grease gun is about 10K now!!!

In civilian life, (as in the last 5 years or so) I bought a "spitfire" which is almost like an M-3 greasegun (some of them have greasegun bolts in them).
it has a wooden stock. It uses grease gun mags which is a plus. 45 ACP good old GUNPLUMBER put a new barrel and cutz compensator on it for me.
SHOOTS very good and accurate. HOWEVER, I had to have a "funnel" built for the gap between the front of the magazine lip and the chamber or it would malfunction. There is about a 1/2 inch gap there. Got it down to a science now. It is a fun bullet hose.
I have about 4 K into it including a dozen or so magazines. I'm told these were about $180 dollars prior to 1986 and were built in Phoenix, AZ.

The BEST in my opinion of what I shot and what was most controllable was hand's down the MP 40 even though I am NOT a fan of the 9 mm cartridge.

If I had the dough, I'd buy an M-16 as they are almost like a "kit gun" in terms of different calibers. These are anywhere from 10 to 25 K that I've seen.

VALMET
June 24, 2015, 19:02
While it lacks the romanticism and engineering of a Thompson or an MP-40, or the "tactical-ness" of an MP-5 I've always been a fan if the Sten!

C2A1
June 27, 2015, 11:04
No expert but have put thousands of rounds down range. Back in the Armex days. My favorites have been
Walther MP-L
Sterling suppressed and MP-5 in 10mm (optics and punch)
Short guys I like my AK-105 and AKU but did enjoy an AR-180S which in the day had a single point on it.

ercrossfire
June 28, 2015, 17:14
My vote,
A custom order: MP5/40SD

Impala_Guy
June 28, 2015, 20:42
I'm partial to the STEN gun and the UZI.....just simple, efficiency defined. Ergonomics are actually not bad on either, though the UZI's folding stock isnt the best. Having shot both at rental ranges, I'm thinking of jumping into the class III game with a transferable UZI.

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/sten_pic1.jpg

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/90d9ef_9b7cfc1d60da44c2ae661654f27bc253.jpg_srz_63 3_483_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz

pmf
June 29, 2015, 13:48
The folding stock looks cool, but the wood stock works much better. They were originally issued with 25-round mags and wood stocks.

Sampson1986
July 04, 2015, 09:35
Having shot both at rental ranges, I'm thinking of jumping into the class III game with a transferable UZI.


Definitely get the UZI unless you get a hell of a deal on a STEN.

Originally, I wanted an Uzi but ended up with a STEN Mk. II instead. I love the Mk. II - it's rugged, it's reliable, and it's mine. But if I had it to do all over again, I probably would have spent a little extra and got an UZI - the smg that popped my full auto cherry.

L Haney
July 04, 2015, 09:55
I think I want a Sterling. Yep. I do. Handled a couple. That sexy pistol grip angle, the slim form factor.

The whole, hold it out in one hand and put holes where you want them thing. Just lovely.