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Old Sarge
February 21, 2015, 21:33
Hi All
I saw on a post that Glock will refurbish your pistol. One of the services they offer on it is a frame upgrade. I understand that its basically replacing a worn frame. But dose it come back with the same SN#? Can you get them to do it in a color other then black? Will they do the Gen 3 or only the current Gen?

Anyone had them do this?

Thanks
Old Sarge

Tgeorgi2002
February 21, 2015, 21:37
I just went through this due to a kaboom. The frame they "upgrade" or replace, is a different serial then the one you send in, and is factory serailed with a number indicative of a replacement frame. Pistols shipped from Austria as complete guns have a two letter prefix, the replacements have a single letter prefix.

Old Sarge
February 22, 2015, 11:06
Thanks that's what I figured. I don't want to turn it into a miss matched gun just to get a newer frame.

Old Sarge

Bug Tussell
February 22, 2015, 18:51
So with a new serial number on the frame does that mean another form 4473?

Tgeorgi2002
February 22, 2015, 22:38
So with a new serial number on the frame does that mean another form 4473?

I'm in NY, and since we have permits, it meant getting the old serial off my permit, the new one on the permit, fees for that, and transfer dealer fees. A hassle.

DYNOMIKE
February 24, 2015, 11:49
So with a new serial number on the frame does that mean another form 4473?

YES....

Wecsogery
February 24, 2015, 12:16
So with a new serial number on the frame does that mean another form 4473?

No.

Q: A firearm is delivered to a licensee by an unlicensed individual for the purpose of repair. Is the return of the repaired firearm subject to the requirements of the Brady law? Would the transfer of a replacement firearm from the licensee to the owner of the damaged firearm be subject to the requirements of the Brady law?

Neither the transfer of a repaired firearm nor the transfer of a replacement firearm would be subject to the requirements of the Brady law. Furthermore, the regulations provide that a Form 4473 is not required to cover these transactions. However, the licensee’s permanent acquisition and disposition records should reflect the return of the firearm or the transfer of a replacement firearm.

[27 CFR 478.124-25]

Source: atf.gov

DYNOMIKE
February 24, 2015, 14:29
No.

Q: A firearm is delivered to a licensee by an unlicensed individual for the purpose of repair. Is the return of the repaired firearm subject to the requirements of the Brady law? Would the transfer of a replacement firearm from the licensee to the owner of the damaged firearm be subject to the requirements of the Brady law?

Neither the transfer of a repaired firearm nor the transfer of a replacement firearm would be subject to the requirements of the Brady law. Furthermore, the regulations provide that a Form 4473 is not required to cover these transactions. However, the licensee’s permanent acquisition and disposition records should reflect the return of the firearm or the transfer of a replacement firearm.

[27 CFR 478.124-25]

Source: atf.gov

Reg repairs and warranty work this is true, there is no paperwork..
I'm working on confirmation now but IIRC once the ser# is changed the 4473 needs to be redone..
It's been awhile since I worked at the shop and want to make sure one way or the other about the info I posted.
I do know for certain that it must be returned to the owner through an FFL and cannot be sent back directly..

Edit w/updated info:
The answer is YES...
Once the Frame is replaced it in essence becomes a new gun and as such another 4473 is required...

Wecsogery
February 24, 2015, 22:34
Reg repairs and warranty work this is true, there is no paperwork..
I'm working on confirmation now but IIRC once the ser# is changed the 4473 needs to be redone..
It's been awhile since I worked at the shop and want to make sure one way or the other about the info I posted.
I do know for certain that it must be returned to the owner through an FFL and cannot be sent back directly..

Edit w/updated info:
The answer is YES...
Once the Frame is replaced it in essence becomes a new gun and as such another 4473 is required...

Where are you getting that information? What I posted is from atf.gov. Also, the manufacturer can absolutely ship a repaired or replaced gun directly back to the owner.

Neither the transfer of a repaired firearm nor the transfer of a replacement firearm would be subject to the requirements of the Brady law. Furthermore, the regulations provide that a Form 4473 is not required to cover these transactions.
That is a direct quote from atf.gov.
And the part about shipping a gun directly to the manufacturer and having it shipped directly back to me is personal experience. An LGS owner swore up and down that it had to go through an FFL both ways, but he was wrong.

DYNOMIKE
February 25, 2015, 11:36
Where are you getting that information? What I posted is from atf.gov. Also, the manufacturer can absolutely ship a repaired or replaced gun directly back to the owner.


That is a direct quote from atf.gov.
And the part about shipping a gun directly to the manufacturer and having it shipped directly back to me is personal experience. An LGS owner swore up and down that it had to go through an FFL both ways, but he was wrong.

YES, it can be shipped back to the owner after a repair..
That's NO problem at all..

But the devil is in the details and what you are missing is that a NEW FRAME makes it a NEW Gun and therefore it needs to have a 4473..

I get my info from 3 years of working as one of the managers at a large gun shop, and confirming my info with those that are currently responsible for such things as running the shop since I no longer work there..

Scott V2
February 26, 2015, 05:46
[QUOTE=DYNOMIKE;4004399]YES, it can be shipped back to the owner after a repair..
That's NO problem at all..

But the devil is in the details and what you are missing is that a NEW FRAME makes it a NEW Gun and therefore it needs to have a 4473..QUOTE]

This.....
I work all day long with 4473 forms. To be simply brief, if the numbered part comes back with a different number on it it is always another 4473 to be filled out

K.O.A.M.
February 28, 2015, 11:41
No additional 4473 is required. I just did this with a 20SF frame that had been unfortunately stippled to less than my standards. I, using the form found on Glock's website, shipped them my old frame, stripped of all parts. They directly shipped me a new frame with a serial number beginning with "G", which I believe to be their code for factory replacement. I received the new frame through Fed Ex to my residence and was not required to do any type of transfer. This was within the last month.

grumpy1
March 01, 2015, 12:46
Ok, having had my G17 frame replaced I can speak from experience.

First of all you can ask for a "1" frame. This is a special run frame which has the same serial # as your gun has with a 1 prefix. These take about 12 weeks to get. From what I was told they do them during change over times.

Next you can get a replacement frame with a "G" serial # and is usually only a couple weeks turn around time. You don't get to pick the serial number though.

And as to needing a form 4473, it depends. Some states require it while others don't. It has to do with where the frame is shipped. If Glock can ship it back to you directly and it doesn't have to go through a FFL dealer then no form 4473. But if it has to be sent to an FFL dealer (CA, NY, etc. ) well then you have to fill out paper work for it.

Glock knows all the hoops they have to jump threw & won't do something they can't. Their customer service reps I spoke with where very knowledgeable and had answers to all my questions when I call about getting my frame replaced.

As far as getting a new color I don't know and didn't ask when I got mine replaced. But I would think that they would be willing to since you are paying for it.

DYNOMIKE
March 02, 2015, 10:34
No additional 4473 is required. I just did this with a 20SF frame that had been unfortunately stippled to less than my standards. I, using the form found on Glock's website, shipped them my old frame, stripped of all parts. They directly shipped me a new frame with a serial number beginning with "G", which I believe to be their code for factory replacement. I received the new frame through Fed Ex to my residence and was not required to do any type of transfer. This was within the last month.

Not sure why but that's the complete opposite of what has been the process for us..
New Frame= NEW 4473
This very thing has happened at least a number of times since the store opened..

Don't think it's a state or county thing either but who knows??

Wecsogery
March 02, 2015, 12:09
Not sure why but that's the complete opposite of what has been the process for us..
New Frame= NEW 4473
This very thing has happened at least a number of times since the store opened..

Don't think it's a state or county thing either but who knows??

It's simple: You have to do the 4473 on a new frame if the transfer is done through the store. But it is also legal for the owner of the gun to bypass the store entirely and deal directly with the manufacturer. In that case the rule is different, and everything up to and including complete replacement of the firearm is considered same as a repair.
A gun store does not manufacture the firearm, hence any frame the store receives must be entered in the bound book. That is not the case with the manufacturer, which could have a thousand frames that have not yet been sold or otherwise accounted for.

DYNOMIKE
March 02, 2015, 12:54
That would actually make sense......
Most customers are under the impression they are not allowed to send it out OR they are just too lazy...

K.O.A.M.
March 02, 2015, 14:49
Not sure why but that's the complete opposite of what has been the process for us..
New Frame= NEW 4473
This very thing has happened at least a number of times since the store opened..

Don't think it's a state or county thing either but who knows??

WECSOGery nailed it. If it comes into an FFL, it goes out on a 4473. If it doesn't, one is not required by federal law.

the gman
March 05, 2015, 21:28
That would actually make sense......
Most customers are under the impression they are not allowed to send it out OR they are just too lazy...

The other option is that per regulation, a non FFL is not allowed to ship a handgun or frame via the USPS (which would cost about $6 for a frame) but must use a common carrier such as FedEx or UPS who, due entirely to their thieving employees, insist on shipping handguns or frames via next day air for insane money. Makes more sense to take it to the FFL who charges $25 for the service and sends it via USPS for pennies.

Don't take this the wrong way Mike but many of the folks who own, run and control gun shops, even some of the largest and most profitable in the nation are often ignorant of the regulations governing their operations.

Ask them this the next time you are in there: can an FFL have a firearm sent to an address other than the one on their FFL? If they have a mailing address separate to their premises address on their FFL, can firearms be legally sent to that mailing address? Their response will tell me if they know what the hell they are talking about or not.

rowjimmy
March 14, 2015, 20:30
....

Ask them this the next time you are in there: can an FFL have a firearm sent to an address other than the one on their FFL? If they have a mailing address separate to their premises address on their FFL, can firearms be legally sent to that mailing address? Their response will tell me if they know what the hell they are talking about or not.

I don't have my FFL yet but I believe the answer is no as only the address listed on the license is valid for receipt.

Am I right?

Did I win anything?

My Glock is only shooting 12 MOA, should I send it in for a frame replacement?

tdb59
March 14, 2015, 21:01
I don't have my FFL yet but I believe the answer is no as only the address listed on the license is valid for receipt.

Am I right? No

Did I win anything? No

My Glock is only shooting 12 MOA, should I send it in for a frame replacement? Yes



:cool:

tdb59
March 14, 2015, 21:03
..... many of the folks who own, run and control gun shops, even some of the largest and most profitable in the nation are often ignorant of the regulations governing their operations.

Ask them this the next time you are in there: can an FFL have a firearm sent to an address other than the one on their FFL? If they have a mailing address separate to their premises address on their FFL, can firearms be legally sent to that mailing address? Their response will tell me if they know what the hell they are talking about or not.

For true !

rowjimmy
March 14, 2015, 21:20
:cool:


Alright. Sometimes a guy's only as good as his contact at the ATF. I was under the impression that business can only be conducted (i.e a transfer) at the address listed on the license.

So, you're saying you can ship a rifle to an address other than the one listed on the license? I assume receipt of a firearm is an act of conducting business.

School me Obi Wan.

tdb59
March 14, 2015, 21:30
https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/pdf-files/0913-ffl-newsletter-volume-2.pdf

" Neither the Gun Control Act (GCA) nor its implementing regulations contain specific provisions requiring that an FFL have firearms shipped to his/her licensed business premises when receiving firearms. Therefore, an FFL may lawfully receive firearms at his/her mailing address, storage location, or other address where the licensee intends to ensure safe and secure receipt of the firearms. "

States may have specific statutes that require the receipt of firearms at the physical premises only .

That help ?

BTW- I know this guy that receives firearms at his mailing address- a Post Office box ! But, he is weird and lives in Central Oregon....


.



:)

rowjimmy
March 14, 2015, 21:38
https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/pdf-files/0913-ffl-newsletter-volume-2.pdf

" Neither the Gun Control Act (GCA) nor its implementing regulations contain specific provisions requiring that an FFL have firearms shipped to his/her licensed business premises when receiving firearms. Therefore, an FFL may lawfully receive firearms at his/her mailing address, storage location, or other address where the licensee intends to ensure safe and secure receipt of the firearms. "

States may have specific statutes that require the receipt of firearms at the physical premises only .

That help ?

BTW- I know this guy that receives firearms at his mailing address- a Post Office box ! But, he is weird and lives in Central Oregon....


.



:)

OK, but a transfer, i.e in and out of the A/D, must be done at the licensee address? Correct?

And I think you're wrong about my Glock....

tdb59
March 14, 2015, 21:50
OK, but a transfer, i.e in and out of the A/D, must be done at the licensee address? Correct?

....

The bound book is maintained at the licensed premises, yes. Sales ( 4473 ) can be done at any location within the State of the licensee. Transfers face to face to other licensees also must be within the state, except Curios and Relics, which can be in any State.

Face to face purchases can be made by a licensee in any State.

Convoluted enough ?


.

rowjimmy
March 15, 2015, 07:08
The bound book is maintained at the licensed premises, yes. Sales ( 4473 ) can be done at any location within the State of the licensee. Transfers face to face to other licensees also must be within the state, except Curios and Relics, which can be in any State.

Face to face purchases can be made by a licensee in any State.

Convoluted enough ?


.

Very much so. The agent they sent out for an interview left me with the expresses impression that business could only be conducted at my address. I.e. he said the license is "only good for here."

In PA, you can buy a long gun FTF between private individuals without going to an FFL, but he told me (but danced around while saying it) that I can no longer do this to add to my private collection and I need to put it in the book and sign it out to myself if I buy one. I'm still wondering about that.


This part:

Transfers face to face to other licensees also must be within the state,


Face to face purchases can be made by a licensee in any State.

Unless there is a distinct legal delineation between the words "transfer" and "purchase" here, seems in direct contradiction with itself. How can licensees from different states both be within their respective states for a transaction?

My teachers told me I was a good reader as a kid...they'd be sorely disappointed. in me now.

Basically, he said I can sign a gun out to any license holder without a 4473 and I can sell a long gun FTF to someone from any state, but if they want to buy a hand gun, I need to ship it to a licensee in their home state for transfer.

But, your above post makes sense of how the licensee can do business at a gun show under his license. (i.e. off premises.)

rowjimmy
March 16, 2015, 21:58
OK, I read this again. I think i understand the gist of it.

Basically I can only do a FTF transfer to another licensee if I'm in my state, but I can ship to a licensee in any state.

I actually took the time to think about that the second time. :facepalm:

It still seems poorly worded.