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mountainman
January 26, 2015, 19:37
do I break my head to find some one who has an oven to get the whole receiver heat treated or will spot weld suffice. I personally think, if only the FCG holes have stress on them that should so suffice, but OTOH, who would go through all the trouble of stainless wrapping and completely heat treating the whole thing if that is not necessary. I wanna hear everybody's argument so I can make a better decision.

Nomad, 2nd
January 26, 2015, 20:05
You looking for a toy or a tool?

Brimstone
January 26, 2015, 21:01
That question is a can of worms,apply your KY liberally. Some say the receivers are fully treated,some say they are spot treated. Pick a side. I fall in line with spot treatment of the FCG pin holes and ejector. Some will tell you that you want pliability in the rivet areas so the steel will dimple into the trunnion counter sinks so as to properly grip and avoid sheering the rivets off. Maybe GP will come along and give some insight,he builds then for a living.

I can tell you from personal experience that tapco rivets are too soft and will stretch allowing shearing to happen.

mountainman
January 27, 2015, 16:04
You looking for a toy or a tool?

I am looking for something that still works after you club something with it.

ALL FAL
January 27, 2015, 16:53
Mountainman, I have wondered why there aren't 1/4" thick receiver kits available that would need welding, a little machining/countersinking??????
Stress relief wouldn't hurt and temper that unit up right, thinking about trying this idea.

Kingtubby
January 27, 2015, 17:15
Mountainman, I have wondered why there aren't 1/4" thick receiver kits available that would need welding, a little machining/countersinking??????

There already are. Theyre called milled receivers. :tongue:

mountainman
January 27, 2015, 17:47
I found out Polish blanks need full heat treating. Now anyone know what kind of cycle to use on the spot welder? I understand you have to hit each spot 3 X with each hit having a different squeeze time and different pause time in between squeeze's otherwise you don't get a good weld.

IRONWORKER
January 27, 2015, 18:42
I drill holes in my recs & plug weld the rails with a Tig, i build up the welds nice n high so there is no undercut whatsoever, then i mill the welds flush & using the Tig rig with no filler wire i "draw" some spot welds on the receiver.....

It looks 100% correct but is much stronger than spot welds are

Potshot
January 27, 2015, 18:55
I heat treated mine. Originals are fully heat treated (tested them)

gunplumber
January 27, 2015, 19:17
They are fully heat-treated and always have been, although not as hard as NODAK does them. Putting a big bulge in shitty ITM receiver while pulling out the stock convinced me not to go with anything that wasn't heat-treated properly.

And while a blow-torch and oil-quenching is "technically" a type of hardening, it is really ghetto in my book. With nice parts kits starting at $450, and the receiver only $100 for the best US receiver available (NoDak), you are spending a lot of money to do low quality work on the critical part.

The only reason to even screw with a folded flat is to keep it off the books, or just for the passion of doing it. In which case, you should have the "passion" to do it right. Which means a heat-treat oven. And once it's folded and welded, it's a firearm, and you can't give it to a non-ffl to heat treat for you, so we're back to the question of why?

For those who do heat treat, it involves fabricating a fixture to clamp everything in alignment, so it doesn't warp. Heat to x, quench in x, and then anneal to z.

But if you're satisfied with not knowing what you have, and doing work you know is substandard, then hit it with a blowtorch till it turns bright red and then dunk it in 40wt. Better than nothing, I guess.

gunplumber
January 27, 2015, 19:22
I drill holes in my recs & plug weld the rails with a Tig, i build up the welds nice n high so there is no undercut whatsoever, then i mill the welds flush & using the Tig rig with no filler wire i "draw" some spot welds on the receiver.....

It looks 100% correct but is much stronger than spot welds are

This. Exactly - even down to "drawing" the welds. Except I use 100# sanpaper and then scotchbrite pad in an angle sander, instead of the mil.

Plus, I already have a TIG welder - and since production speed isn't important to me - I see no point in buying a spot welder. Just for cutting out the semiauto rail and welding in the full-auto rail for a post-sample.

mountainman
January 27, 2015, 19:49
They are fully heat-treated and always have been, although not as hard as NODAK does them. Putting a big bulge in shitty ITM receiver while pulling out the stock convinced me not to go with anything that wasn't heat-treated properly.

And while a blow-torch and oil-quenching is "technically" a type of hardening, it is really ghetto in my book. With nice parts kits starting at $450, and the receiver only $100 for the best US receiver available (NoDak), you are spending a lot of money to do low quality work on the critical part.

The only reason to even screw with a folded flat is to keep it off the books, or just for the passion of doing it. In which case, you should have the "passion" to do it right. Which means a heat-treat oven. And once it's folded and welded, it's a firearm, and you can't give it to a non-ffl to heat treat for you, so we're back to the question of why?

For those who do heat treat, it involves fabricating a fixture to clamp everything in alignment, so it doesn't warp. Heat to x, quench in x, and then anneal to z.

But if you're satisfied with not knowing what you have, and doing work you know is substandard, then hit it with a blowtorch till it turns bright red and then dunk it in 40wt. Better than nothing, I guess.

Who said I am spot heat treating?

juanni
January 27, 2015, 20:03
do I break my head to find some one who has an oven to get the whole receiver heat treated or will spot weld suffice.

Well with that sentence is hard to guess what you are asking.

Heat treating the receiver and spot welding the rails are 2 different things, so it makes no sense to link them with an "or".




..............juanni

flopshot
January 27, 2015, 21:16
i rolled my own for the knowledge and challenge of building my own tooling, heat treated the FCG holes and ejector for durability, plug welded the rails for convenience. these rifles were a learning experience and i have no plans of using them as crow bars, i have others that cover the reliability category.

gunplumber
January 28, 2015, 10:12
Who said I am spot heat treating?

While your post is incoherent as usual, I picked out the following from your rambling.

find some one who has an oven to get the whole receiver heat treated or will spot weld suffice.

I assumed you meant "spot heat treat" because the next line is

I personally think, if only the FCG holes have stress on them that should so suffice

And oil quenching the FCG holes is typical of shoddy companies like OOW, ORF, ITM, AUSA, etc.

but OTOH, who would go through all the trouble of stainless wrapping and completely heat treating the whole thing if that is not necessary.

No idea what stainless wrapping is, but I'm used to your posts being rambling idiocy, so I just blew it off.

I wanna hear everybody's argument so I can make a better decision.

Apparently you don't, and my vast experience building thousands of AKs is irrelevant to you, you ungrateful putz. Perhaps it will be of use to someone else.

juanni
January 28, 2015, 10:23
No idea what stainless wrapping is, but I'm used to your posts being rambling idiocy, so I just blew it off.


Wrapped and sealed in stainless steel foil to stop oxidation during non atmospheric controlled heat treating.

http://heattreatfoil.com/images/foil_tool_wrap.jpg

Which, or course will do nothing to prevent warping.




...........juanni

gunplumber
January 28, 2015, 10:30
Thank you - juanni.

If I need parts hardened, I send them to a professional heat treat facility.

I did heat and oil quench my StG flash hider tines, in a procedure that caused them to ring the same as an original and IIRC scratch-tested around 45 RC. I've also used Casenite in a number of experimental leaf-spring adventures. Fortunately, we live in a society where that kind of thing is a waste of time and money, as I can just order the correct material. But it's good to expand one's knowledge for it's own sake.

juanni
January 28, 2015, 10:31
MM, Like so many others before you have found, the only way to reliably and properly heat treat the entire sheet metal receiver is in a molten salt bath and jigs to prevent warping.




...........juanni

juanni
January 28, 2015, 10:43
Thank you - juanni.

If I need parts hardened, I send them to a professional heat treat facility.

I did heat and oil quench my StG flash hider tines, in a procedure that caused them to ring the same as an original and IIRC scratch-tested around 45 RC. I've also used Casenite in a number of experimental leaf-spring adventures. Fortunately, we live in a society where that kind of thing is a waste of time and money, as I can just order the correct material. But it's good to expand one's knowledge for it's own sake.

Yep, I get 40lbs of 4140 professionally hardened in an atmospheric controlled environment to the desired hardness and each piece individually Rockwell tested for $75.

I would spend more on Oxy/Act, bandages and salve quenching red hot metal in oil. :p



...........juanni

gunplumber
January 29, 2015, 18:29
I usually write the way I think.

That does explain a lot. Try writing in coherent English instead. You might get better results. At least better results than getting butt-hurt over people like me responding to what you wrote, instead of what is bouncing around in your addled mind.

mountainman
January 29, 2015, 18:36
While your post is incoherent as usual, I picked out the following from your rambling.



I assumed you meant "spot heat treat" because the next line is



And oil quenching the FCG holes is typical of shoddy companies like OOW, ORF, ITM, AUSA, etc.



No idea what stainless wrapping is, but I'm used to your posts being rambling idiocy, so I just blew it off.



Apparently you don't, and my vast experience building thousands of AKs is irrelevant to you, you ungrateful putz. Perhaps it will be of use to someone else.


You still don't have what it takes to make me :tantrum:

Anyways I don't plan on heat treating everything after spot welding, so I don't expect to have to use molten salt and fancy jig to stop warpage. I'll just beg a buddy for the favor of using his furnace.
Thanks everyone, including you, Mark.

gunplumber
January 29, 2015, 18:42
(snicker)

Glad to help. Chaim, really - I am (no sarcasm). The gun deserves it, whether you do or not.

juanni
February 17, 2015, 20:27
Anyways I don't plan on heat treating everything after spot welding, so I don't expect to have to use molten salt and fancy jig to stop warpage. I'll just beg a buddy for the favor of using his furnace.


This is even more perplexing?

How are you going to not heat treat the entire receiver and warp it when you use a furnace?

It is either in the hot furnace or not, it isn't like you can direct the heat only in locations where you want it.




............juanni

ALL FAL
February 17, 2015, 21:41
Since you are not using stainless for the receiver, the foil use is pretty much mute, the foil is used mostly on air cured stainless steels and especially knife blades.

hueyville
February 17, 2015, 21:46
I have a Ney Vulcan 3-1750 peogrammable heat treating oven. If gave me the specs for programming heat and cooling cycles it just sits most of the time. Might even let it find a new home.

ALL FAL
February 17, 2015, 21:55
There already are. Theyre called milled receivers. :tongue:

I knew someone would come up with the milled, The Oldschool AK47's are the shizzen. To me they feel Right on and solid Bob.

Kidding aside, a weld together thick kit with lightning cuts would be a way to go if you are a craftsman.

Hueyville, we should talk about a remmy 7mm and a ney vulcan.

hueyville
February 17, 2015, 22:48
PM me. Been considering another 7mm.