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wonderdog451
January 18, 2015, 20:11
I have been doing some research into starting a firearms trust in order to obtain a few suppressors and would like some advice from those who have traveled that route. First, there is a lawyer that advertises his services for that purpose ( I suspect that it is nothing more than a downloadable form or two) or did you just download the ATF form or E File it yourself?

dtom29
January 19, 2015, 19:58
wait for it....

MattK512
January 20, 2015, 00:06
I have been doing some research into starting a firearms trust in order to obtain a few suppressors and would like some advice from those who have traveled that route. First, there is a lawyer that advertises his services for that purpose ( I suspect that it is nothing more than a downloadable form or two) or did you just download the ATF form or E File it yourself?

I think the Trust is the best way - certainly flexible and if you have close family it allows you to lend items to trust members.

I went to SilencerShop and got a trust through them. Not sure if I'd recommend their online trust over any other, but they have tons of experience with them and I live in the Austin area so it was easy to walk in and get it done. Took 15min.

http://www.silencershop.com/support/how-to-buy-a-silencer/ good advice no matter how you get your trust done.

So after you get the Trust, you can buy a suppressor which may be done online, but the shop will be doing it slow boat via a form 4. They'll have you fill out the form and will send it off for you after you pay. Efile is not available for form4, which is what you'll probably be doing. Some 5-8 months later you get your suppressor xferred to your local FFL or you can pick it up if purchased locally.

Someone will be along to poo-poo on trusts or SilencerShop, but buying a suppressor was easy because of them. My family and I have used our Trust for SBRs and suppressors, most done online - all legally - and it was all quick and easy. NFA items are simple and relatively cheap to buy now, a lot more so than they used to be and after you get your signed trust scanned, virtually all electronic.

Make sure you go to a shop that wants your business. If they are reluctant to explain things in person or over the phone, then go to a place that wants your money more and is willing to earn it.

Bawana jim
January 20, 2015, 00:26
Might go to NFA tracker and see the difference in how long it takes the paper work to go through for trust or individuals. I won't poo poo a trust but I hear they are revocable so to me that means they are subject to political whim. I am just cynical in my thinking so don't let it sway your actions lol.

shortround
January 20, 2015, 02:30
Might go to NFA tracker and see the difference in how long it takes the paper work to go through for trust or individuals. I won't poo poo a trust but I hear they are revocable so to me that means they are subject to political whim. I am just cynical in my thinking so don't let it sway your actions lol.


Revocable has nothing to do with "political whim". All it means is that you can change the terms or beneficiaries of the trust at will, versus a "irrevocable" trust that is set in stone once signed. :facepalm:

Wonderdog, I had my trust drawn up by a lawyer that posts as Shyster on the MGO forums. If you want his contact info, PM me. It's worked well for me considering you can't get anyone to sign off on the CLEO paperwork around here.

Oh, and my last efiled form 1 with the trust was approved in 34 days. You can't eform as an individual.

http://wills.about.com/od/overviewoftrusts/a/revvirrvtrs.htm?utm_term=revocable%20trust%20defin ition&utm_content=p1-main-1-title&utm_medium=sem&utm_source=msn&utm_campaign=adid-e0aa38a8-3b58-4a5c-93a0-985957949dd8-0-ab_msb_ocode-22846&ad=semD&an=msn_s&am=broad&q=revocable%20trust%20definition&dqi=&o=22846&l=sem&qsrc=999&askid=e0aa38a8-3b58-4a5c-93a0-985957949dd8-0-ab_msb

MattK512
January 20, 2015, 16:14
Oh, and my last efiled form 1 with the trust was approved in 34 days. You can't eform as an individual.

Mine too - 34 calender days. SBRs are so fast now it makes my head hurt. I am very glad I went and did SBR form1 efile over using a brace for my M92.

dtom29
January 21, 2015, 01:00
Well, this went better than I expected... other than Bawana Jim not knowing what he was talking about the replies were knowledgeable and informative.

L Haney
January 21, 2015, 05:43
I'm just about finished researching Revocable Trusts. Been a long haul.

Mine will have NFA items but will actually be much broader than that.

One reason I'm approaching it that way is that it is possible, perhaps not likely, but possible, future 'rulings' by the ATF could render NFA only trusts invalid from their view. They are not bound by law, they generate regulations which are a different animal.

But if the real/monetary value of the trust is weighed heavily into real property with NFA items a relatively minor percentage, I believe that will be much harder for them to invalidate as versus a trust containing only NFA items.

Perhaps I'm over thinking this but I do try to hedge my bets.

stimpsonjcat
January 21, 2015, 14:04
Sounds like a good plan to me El.

I have more than just my MGs and form1 cans on my trust, and I did it with Quicken, plus some mods of my own.

Sampson1986
January 21, 2015, 20:24
A trust is the way to go at present. Transfers are much faster, there is less bullshit to deal with, and any trustee can have access to the goodies.

If ATF 41P goes into effect, the trust route is going to be a major pain in the ass.

L Haney
January 21, 2015, 21:34
A 'Trust' is quite a different legal animal. They are possessed of some very strange qualities.

I mentioned I'd been looking into this a bit. To me, the most interesting bits have been the attempts, in court, to break or nullify them, having the holdings revolve onto individuals. Specifically, attacking the structure of the Trust by weaknesses in wording or apportionment.

It becomes clear very early on this 'legal fiction', which is of what a Trust consists, was constructed to keep government OUT of private wealth. It can sidestep inheritance penalties most well, as ownership has not in fact (or fiction?) transitioned.

Like I said, these things are interesting.

dtom29
January 25, 2015, 12:40
Yep, you're over thinking this...The BATF wants to get rid of Trust's so bad that they went to the time and expense to design their computerized approval system around Trusts. Trusts are a legal entity, BATF could not invalidate a legal Trust. The most BATF could do is refuse to approve transfers to a Trust. But even that would take a change in the law... not just an opinion letter. There is a reason the 41P opinion keeps getting postponed...

partisan50
January 25, 2015, 13:33
Yep, you're over thinking this...The BATF wants to get rid of Trust's so bad that they went to the time and expense to design their computerized approval system around Trusts. Trusts are a legal entity, BATF could not invalidate a legal Trust. The most BATF could do is refuse to approve transfers to a Trust. But even that would take a change in the law... not just an opinion letter. There is a reason the 41P opinion keeps getting postponed...

Yes sir they will sooner or later drop a bomb on the Trust issue. Keep in mind that they went out of the way to come up with a Form for all persons associated with the legal entities (trust/LLC-Corp) requiring them to get CLEO sign offs.

G3isMe
February 06, 2015, 22:19
I had one drawn up by a local barristar on the files for me for a small fee. I am sure you can have one made on quicken or other site but I felt a little reassured that someone had some legal training in developing my trust.


So what is the status of requiring trusts members having to solicite for signatures? I haven't heard much lately.


.

shortround
February 07, 2015, 00:04
41P is due out in May. In what form it will be, no one really knows. There are some legal challenges waiting in the wings. Worst case is all principal trusts members will need background checks as well as pictures and fingerprints and the trust will have to get a CLEO sign off. I doubt a thing will be retroactive, but your beneficiaries will probably have to be vetted when they take possession.

L Haney
February 07, 2015, 19:52
The most BATF could do is refuse to approve transfers to a Trust. But even that would take a change in the law... not just an opinion letter.

I respectfully differ with this. An "opinion letter" is one thing. A Federally Binding Regulation is quite another. Which they can and have issued many times in the past.

I do agree with you the likely thing for them to do would be to dis-allow transfers of NFA items to a Trust. They do not even have to justify why they would do so.

PBR Streetgang
February 07, 2015, 21:23
L. If you'd like to view mine I can send it to you. A PDF editor would allow you to customize it for your own. Send me an email address and I will forward it to you. Formed it 11, December, still waiting for stamp from BTAFEMFers for the trust's first purchase.
Joel

dtom29
February 12, 2015, 14:02
41P is due out in May. In what form it will be, no one really knows. There are some legal challenges waiting in the wings. Worst case is all principal trusts members will need background checks as well as pictures and fingerprints and the trust will have to get a CLEO sign off. I doubt a thing will be retroactive, but your beneficiaries will probably have to be vetted when they take possession.
And it was "due out" three times before this...no one wants this, not even the BATF. I'll bet there is another delay after this one. The BATF spent millions to develop the e-file system which would end with 41p.

dtom29
February 12, 2015, 14:06
I respectfully differ with this. An "opinion letter" is one thing. A Federally Binding Regulation is quite another. Which they can and have issued many times in the past.
I do agree with you the likely thing for them to do would be to dis-allow transfers of NFA items to a Trust. They do not even have to justify why they would do so.

Nope, the "legal entity" is in the legislation, it isn't something the BATF decided they would honor out of the goodness of their heart. It would take a law change. They WOULD have to justify HOW they could refuse to allow a transfer to something provided for in the original legislation. You're not getting what I'm saying...it's not that easy.