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Bubacus
December 06, 2014, 09:12
I saw the segment on this a while back and it looks like Remington has got a pricey recall on their hands:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102236497

Massive fix for the country’s most popular gun

America's oldest gun manufacturer, Remington, has agreed to replace millions of triggers in its most popular product—the Model 700 rifle. The company has been riddled for years with claims the gun can fire without the trigger being pulled, often with deadly results.

A 2010 CNBC documentary, "Remington Under Fire: A CNBC Investigation," explored allegations that for decades the company covered up a design defect, which Remington continues to deny. But now, under a nationwide settlement filed Friday in a federal court in Missouri, the company is agreeing to replace the triggers in about 7.85 million rifles.

While insisting its action is not a recall of the iconic gun, Remington says in a statement that it is agreeing to make the changes "to avoid the uncertainties and expense of protracted litigation."

The settlement involves a class action suit brought in 2013 by Ian Pollard of Concordia, Missouri, who claimed his Remington 700 rifle fired on multiple occasions without the trigger being pulled. The agreement also settles a similar class action case in Washington state. The Pollard suit accused Remington and its owners of negligence, breach of warranty, unfair and deceptive trade practices, and fraudulent concealment—some of it involving the company's formal response to the 2010 CNBC documentary.

okiefarmer
December 06, 2014, 09:41
Finally. I lost two personal friends to this defect. A defect they knew about and ignored for years. They acted very much like our own government in all this. It was about the Benjamins, now it's gonna cost them a shitload of Benjamins.

Screw the class action suit, they only enrich the lawyers. I hope someone sues them fully into bankruptcy.:bow::bow::bow:

MAINER
December 06, 2014, 10:58
Okie, sorry about your friends, can't imagine two people you know being a victim of the same somewhat rare occurrence.

It's good that the present owner/management company will pony up for a recall, but they are not the same people that refused to spend 5 !/2 cents in '48 or turned down two recall proposals since.

I suppose the woman that killed her son in a hunting accident and started all this has suffered enough, but it sure would have helped if she had known at least one firearms safety procedure besides "Don't shoot yourself".

It sounds like I am defending Cerebus, but that's not my intent. There's a new horse pulling the plow, doesn't do much good beating on him because the previous horse wouldn't work.

Wonder how they will accomplish this recall? The shipping alone on that many rifles boogles the mind.

nearmisses
January 02, 2015, 14:42
This is a sore point with me, and it's going to force me to speak up. I don't particularly like the Remington 700 but not because of the fine trigger it has but the lousy extractor and a trigger block safety device found on so many other weapons it's routine today to describe it as one. Other than that it is the most accurate out of the box bolt action rifle on the market bar none today. Our own Military uses them and I have not heard of one incident in which a sniper shot themselves with their own rifle. Maybe its just me but isn't the second rule of shooting never point your weapon at anything you don't intend to obliterate? Sounds like stupidity plus rearing it's ugly head again.

The trigger, when adjusted properly, by a qualified technician will work just fine. The safety device must also work and engage properly also and this is where the idiots that try for a light pull get in trouble. It is a precise mechanism and in time all parts wear and they have made people that were indifferent at least try to read the instruction manual and figure them out. Problem is when un-qualified owners and even so called gunsmiths get there hands on one and decide they know what they are doing, This is all BS! I just heard yesterday that my Son in Laws Brother is defending someone here locally that shot himself in the leg with one. Now, the word has been out there in the gun community since I was a kid about Remington 700 triggers and the problems that ensue if adjusted improperly or even wrong from the factory! I would bet 99 44/100's% of these the result of some idiot fiddling because of gun writers and the new idiots on the internet. When I was doing this sort of work I saw it all the time. I worked for a company in the 70's and saw the stupidity everyday of my fellow shooters. Remington did a lot to inform people of the hazards that can occure using firearms. No one is completely safe from any device if he uses it incorrectly. ANYONE that agrees with this BullS--T can give up his weapons ,his car, etc. WRONG LINE OF THINKING BY UN-QUALIFIED PERSONS. Since when did the Government and liberals protect you from anything you couldn't have done yourself if you took the time to read the manual or learn about it from a professional? Flame on!

hawk962
January 02, 2015, 16:59
I have one of these rifles. Have had it since the 70's and up until a couple years ago it never missed a beat. I only used it for hunting season and an occasional range trip. It has never been altered in any way. One morning whilst just settling into a ground blind, I attempted to load a round into the chamber and the bolt would not cock, I took the round out and worked the bolt about a half dozen times with the exact same result every time I closed the bolt it dropped the firing pin into fired position. Then, it did cock. Put the rifle on safe, took it off safe and it fired on what was luckily an empty chamber. This happened without me touching the trigger in any way. Kinda put a damper on my morning hunt. I messed with it a few more times back at camp it had the same malfunction twice. It has been gathering dust ever since. I fully intended to fix it, just never got around to it and I sure as hell wasn't going to pass it off to someone else. I had been planning on just replacing the factory trigger with a Timney, which I will probably still do. IMHO, they should have acted on the warning Walker issued in 1946. Another Icon in the sporting world had the bean counters advising him to refuse honoring warranties on all of the aluminum laminated bows that were coming apart around the same timeframe, It seems that WW II bomber aluminum didn't like glue and maple back then. Fred covered any and all that were returned and that is the way it should be. Are people to blame for pointing the rifle in an unsafe direction? Absolutely, but Remington should have fixed this before it ever became an issue.

nearmisses
January 03, 2015, 02:33
Hawk972, in all that time has the rifle been thoroughly taken apart and cleaned by a professional in say a cleaning tank? I mean a complete tear down of the entire weapon, stock off, bolt, cocking piece, firing pin, FP Spring, Trigger safety group, mag box follower and leaf spring? The biggest problem with all firearms is they come with a protective oil film on them and if never removed when new by someone with some muscle and mineral spirits, brake cleaner or what ever the EPA allows today & properly re-oiled and assembled will cause a problem somewhere down the road. The trigger and safety group needs the same treatment and it can be tricky for the unknowing. I have seen the parts not move if they haven't been cleaned in 40 years and on a really cold day it could really fool you. I've seen firing pins not even move till the parts warmed up, the sear was already depress and not holding and slowly release. You have to admit the Rem 700 has one of the best triggers in the business if not messed with and cleaned and checked in a routine way. I mean we service our cars with an oil change a routine maintenance, tune ups brake jobs, right? Most balk at going to a decent gunsmith and paying to having their weapon cleaned. Now if he only cleans the barrel, charges 50 bucks to do it, he's not a gunsmith.

So, did your rifle receive regular check-ups and such the same way you treat your other mechanical devices? Kudo's if the answer is yes. Also if you bought it from a gunsmith instead of a K-Mart and someone explained the proper function and cleaning of the weapon, not just the barrel, another high 5. Most don't and then expect a weapon to never fail given the abuse and neglect they suffer at out hands. The tolerances in the Rem trigger are very precise and if anything fails to be clean or adjusted and then locked down tight, crap can happen. First, a sliding trigger block safety device isn't perfect, but look how many rifles and pistols they are on. If you want a good safety, a Model 70 3 position or a Mauser with a 3 Position or just 2, The hold the cocking piece away from the sear. When released it places it back against the sears face. Even they can have problems but I prefer those over the sliding trigger type.
So whose fault is it if something goes wrong? Hope that helps

SAFN49
January 03, 2015, 03:01
I saw this thread when it was first posted, and refrained from replying. I have two 700's that I will not send back to be "repaired". There is nothing wrong with them. I do not pull the trigger with the rifle on safe then attempt to operate the loaded firearms action while pointed at a person. I have tested both mine, pulling the trigger while in the safety is engaged, then operating the action. Neither rifle fires. Mine are clean. I did not take the last Remington recall money for the 870's either. If you were stupid enough to put 20ga shell in a 12ga then load 12ga shell and fire it you deserve the results. Over time parts can and will wear. Not many people pull the action from the stock to clean and inspect the trigger mechanism.

Right Side Up
January 03, 2015, 05:18
It is never ok to point a gun at someone......loaded, unloaded, safety on, safety off.....it doesn't matter, it's never ok.

I, as a gun person, expect that I will have an AD in my lifetime. My gun will not be pointed at a human being when it happens. Period.

If someone is shot, it is not the gun going off that should be blamed, but the person pointing it at someone in the first damned place.

W.E.G.
January 03, 2015, 10:01
Drown all moving parts in Break Free is my motto.

gunplumber
January 03, 2015, 11:04
I have one of these rifles. Have had it since the 70's

And in 40 years, couldn't be bothered to clean it even once . .. .

I had been planning on just replacing the factory trigger with a Timney,

Up until their most recent version, the Timney was the same design trigger as the Remington. The difference was a longer adjustment screw with a lock nut to hold position, rather than glue.

It's a sad day when a company is blamed for not doing enough to prevent their customers from misusing the product. Remington can't "fix" the trigger, because the problem is the stupid, willfully negligent operator. What they have to do, is make it so the customer can't be stupid. They tried this, by gluing the screws, and the customers removed the glue. They tried it with some form of JB weld, and in irony of ironies, on some units, the glue dripped and caused the very malfunction they were trying to prevent the customer from creating.


Here's my video on the subject.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/2SqRH3tHhdM?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

TOWS220
January 03, 2015, 14:03
So how does the mechanism becoming dirty cause this on a gun that has not been tinkered with?

L Haney
January 03, 2015, 14:29
So how does the mechanism becoming dirty cause this on a gun that has not been tinkered with?


Way back when car engines had carburetors, if the mechanical linkage got enough gunk on it the idle speed wouldn't return to normal. Pretty much the same issue.

TOWS220
January 03, 2015, 14:36
Ok, so the trigger gets depressed by whatever, the gunk keeps the spring from returning it, and when the safety comes off the sear drops.

gunplumber
January 03, 2015, 14:50
Not quite - if the trigger is pulled and does not return forward, the cocking piece won't catch when the bolt is opened and closed. Just like if one were to put a SA FAL in the FA position, hold the trigger back, and rack the bolt. Hammer follow with no force behind it.

Only if the trigger is forward
then the bolt is cocked
then the safety put on
then the trigger pulled
then the trigger does not return forward
then the safety is disengaged

nearmisses
January 03, 2015, 17:48
I must commend GP on his video and would say if this video were submitted by opposing council some of these suits might have been dismissed as sheer stupidity on behalf of the owner. There maybe a broken part that might cause a problem but more often than not, the crud hardened and made the triggers a problem. Product Liability and guns have always been at opposite ends of the spectrum. Lawyers are the bane of our society at present. It's too bad that for every 10 lawyers that might say you don't have a case or, do you really want to be made to look the fool in a court room, there's always one that will. When in America again are we going to learn to be responsible again for our own actions.

One of my favorite stupid's came one day while behind the counter and a rube walked up and told me how he sued Weatherby and won because he shot a Winchester 270 cartridge in his Weatherby 270's Magnums chamber and it blew up and some gas and powder burnt his face some and messed up the rifle. He assumed they were interchangeable as they both said 270, I just looked at him and told him what a true A__hole he was. He couldn't figure it out and walked off, several onlookers also laughed at him. Another time, same store, the former owner came up to me and stated that the reason Ruger had to put the warnings on their firearms was because of his lawsuit. Needless to say when the present owner I worked for defaulted on the note the old owner fired me instantly. Thank God, I would have quit before that had I known the store was going back to an inbred like him. Like the Duke says, you can't fix stupid!

rcnpthfndr
January 04, 2015, 13:04
you can put in your serial number ad see if your rifle is the is one of the affected ranges

http://xmprecall.remington.com/

as for the sniper comment the triggers on the old M24's are different than the production run triggers and can be adjusted without taking it out of the stock. IIRC its a 40-x trigger or a variant of it.

garandguy10
January 04, 2015, 15:15
Many years ago a friend of mine purchased a brand new Remington Model 700 in 7mm Mag. caliber from Kmart. A week later we were out in the sticks testing it out with it's first box of ammo when the rifle discharged at the exact moment I closed the bolt on a loaded round. My fingers were nowhere near the trigger when it fired. My friend had not disassembled the rifle and as far as I know he had not cleaned it either as he is not a gun tinkerer at all.

To the best of my knowledge the rifle was not sent back for repairs and he did use it on some deer hunts without incident.

Was the trigger defective? was there debris in the trigger mechanism, it does not matter as it was my fault since I was operating the rifle at the time. Fortunately the rifle was pointed in a safe direction and no harm was done.

.30-06
January 04, 2015, 15:33
Glad I went with Winchester...It's good Remington is finally gonna ante up and fix these things.

CG&L
January 04, 2015, 15:45
Since we have a few knowledgeable Remington guys here, can anybody recommend a good aftermarket trigger for their Model 700

Something adjustable with a safety?

nearmisses
January 04, 2015, 18:41
Since we have a few knowledgeable Remington guys here, can anybody recommend a good aftermarket trigger for their Model 700

Something adjustable with a safety?

Try Gentry's 3 position safety and a custom trigger all available at Brownell's in the rifle pages. Or, you could just send your rifle back to Remington for a replacement or buy a Win Md. 70 Pre 64 type, best damn trigger & extractor for hunters yet and a fine 3 position safety. Good custom Mauser would be another choice with 2 or 3 Position safety and good trigger
Once again to reiterate, nothing wrong with a clean, maintained Remington 700 Trigger.

MAINER
January 04, 2015, 18:59
According to Remy's website, they are recalling triggers from 2006 to 2014. I'm pretty sure they haven't produced 7.85 mil M 700 in that time frame. These rifles would have been equipped with the newer X-Mark Pro trigger.

My one and only M 700 is a PSS and didn't fall within the serial number range being recalled. I haven't been able to evoke a failure with it so far. Wish me luck. :(

CG&L, There are several good aftermarket triggers for the Rem 700. Jewel, Shilen, Rifle Basix, Jard and Timney to name a few.
Which one you buy depends on your usage and wallet. Go with Jewel if you need a light trigger for super accuracy. I like the Timney for half the price and a wider foot, but my use is mainly as a hunting or field gun and I prefer a trigger weight measured in pounds (2-3) rather than ounces.

You should spend some time on the trigger maker's websites as most of them have several models, prices and pull weights.
Here's Rifle Basix;
http://www.riflebasix.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=24

gunplumber
January 04, 2015, 19:46
The new Timney is good. The old Timney is functionally the same as the old Remy. Not a problem, but not avoiding the potential to screw it up

And yes, the old Winchester trigger can be adjusted to create the same problem, if one were foolish enough to do so.

partisan50
January 04, 2015, 20:11
According to Remy's website, they are recalling triggers from 2006 to 2014. I'm pretty sure they haven't produced 7.85 mil M 700 in that time frame. These rifles would have been equipped with the newer X-Mark Pro trigger.




That website only covers the original recall.

There was a newer recall that covers ALL 700s from 2006 going all the way back to the beginning.

Guy-epic
January 04, 2015, 21:26
Interested to see how they play it out

hawk962
January 05, 2015, 10:05
Nearmisses, sorry for the late reply, I performed regular cleaning on the rifle through the years, including removing the stock. I never dis-assembled the bolt or trigger. It has never been in a tank either so that may very well be the issue. Thanks for the detailed response.

MAINER
January 05, 2015, 11:19
That website only covers the original recall.

There was a newer recall that covers ALL 700s from 2006 going all the way back to the beginning.

Do you have a link to a recall of all 700's before 2006? The only one I find is the XMP triggers from 2006 to 2014.

Guy-epic
January 05, 2015, 13:33
So is this going to be like Ruger's where older ones sent in takes value off them? I have one that is from 1995 ish I am sure it falls into the recall, it's never had a issue, it has had the trigger adjusted by a gunsmith years ago. I want to say that it's about 3 1/2 to 4 pounds. I have never had a failure. I do keep it clean, and only shoot it every few years.

0302
January 05, 2015, 20:08
I have only owned rugers with the 3 position safety. nuff said.

partisan50
January 05, 2015, 21:42
Do you have a link to a recall of all 700's before 2006? The only one I find is the XMP triggers from 2006 to 2014.

It's not a true recall, but they will fix them to end their agony...

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/remington-model-700-recall-affects-7-85-million-rifles/

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/remington-700-massive-fix-countrys-most-popular-gun-n262721


http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/12/robert-farago/remington-model-700-trigger-recall-not-recall-apparently/

Jaxxas
January 05, 2015, 22:41
And in 40 years, couldn't be bothered to clean it even once . .. .



Up until their most recent version, the Timney was the same design trigger as the Remington. The difference was a longer adjustment screw with a lock nut to hold position, rather than glue.

It's a sad day when a company is blamed for not doing enough to prevent their customers from misusing the product. Remington can't "fix" the trigger, because the problem is the stupid, willfully negligent operator. What they have to do, is make it so the customer can't be stupid. They tried this, by gluing the screws, and the customers removed the glue. They tried it with some form of JB weld, and in irony of ironies, on some units, the glue dripped and caused the very malfunction they were trying to prevent the customer from creating.


Here's my video on the subject.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/2SqRH3tHhdM?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


I like my Remy 700, never shot anything I wasn't shooting at!

Good video, you must waddle with all that brass you carry!:bow:

MAINER
January 06, 2015, 10:37
It's not a true recall, but they will fix them to end their agony...

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/remington-model-700-recall-affects-7-85-million-rifles/

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/remington-700-massive-fix-countrys-most-popular-gun-n262721


http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/12/robert-farago/remington-model-700-trigger-recall-not-recall-apparently/

Thanks, the 3rd link was especially informative.
Quote;
"It’s not a recall, it’s an update…
Which is just like a recall, except not, but really it is, or not." :whistling:

Mausers rule! :shades:

nearmisses
January 06, 2015, 12:26
Nearmisses, sorry for the late reply, I performed regular cleaning on the rifle through the years, including removing the stock. I never dis-assembled the bolt or trigger. It has never been in a tank either so that may very well be the issue. Thanks for the detailed response.

If there is a gunsmith in the area you trust I would see if he would clean it for you. With this recall some shy away due to product liability reasons. Otherwise send it back to Remington asking to disassemble and clean all grease from surfaces and replace the trigger as per warranty and tell them about the discharges common to it.

Mainer, Mauser's DO rule! Make mine Mauser too, and it is! Let's all keep sight of this from gun legislation point of view, when you go after a gunmaker for your own short comings it'll come back and bite us all in the ass. Ruger had his share and gave in instead of fighting it. Look where it got us, "safer guns and safer bullets" to quite an idiot!