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SAFN49
November 12, 2014, 21:17
Gunsmith is a piece of crap and needs to be drawn and quartered!

http://yellowhammernews.com/faithandculture/alabamians-anti-veterans-rant-lands-serious-hot-water/

davesrb
November 12, 2014, 22:47
Wow! There are some real idiots out there! You are welcome to express your political beliefs, and your customers can choose whether or not to give you their money. Death threats seem unwarranted. Most vets I know will agree, they fight to preserve your right to be a loud mouthed ass wipe...,

ghf
November 13, 2014, 14:16
His rant almost sounds like some stuff that I've read from MG Smedley Butler, USMC.

Noted that it seems that some "patriots" threatened his wife/ family?
Over a rant on facebook?
Jees...take a deep breath and relax. Get back on the meds.

Threatening women and children, makes me and other vets look bad.

I had my 26 yr love affair w/ the Army so that, among other freedoms, Americans can rant and rave and say foolish and offensive things and not have their families threatened.

E5c03
November 13, 2014, 16:11
Stupid is as stupid does,,his rant should be towards the azzwipes in DC.
They are the ones who send us where we go

Stranger
November 13, 2014, 17:55
I had my 26 yr love affair w/ the Army so that, among other freedoms, Americans can rant and rave and say foolish and offensive things and not have their families threatened.

You were in the Revolutionary War?

ghf
November 14, 2014, 09:05
You were in the Revolutionary War?

Ha! Nope, missed that one.

The "Civil War", now- that was a tough decision as to what side to fight for.

gunplumber
November 14, 2014, 11:13
His rant would make sense if he added the caveat "since World War II".

He is largely correct, but without specificity. He should have said The US Military and all it's members are tools of corporate interests. They have done little in my lifetime to enhance the safety and security of the American People, and arguably have made us less free. Our service members may believe they're fighting for Mom and Apple Pie, but the billions of dollars and thousands of lives are for the benefit of globalist oligarchs.

That is the simple reality. Jesse Ventura, American Hero, said it much better.

sweetwine
November 14, 2014, 11:19
Have to agree with you GP.
It's all about the money now.

gobbler
November 15, 2014, 07:49
Been seeing their billboards & ads..... Planned on looking them up, so much for that idea! Will stck with ShotgunSports in Anniston instead..... With my old buddy Kenny

Gobbler

hangfire762
November 15, 2014, 18:58
I recently retired from 20 years of service. I did combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Neither I nor my teammates terrorized any of the local population. We treated them with a degree of respect and common courtesy. I gave candy, soccer balls and dolls, purchased from my own pocket, to kids. I treated wounded civilians..adults and children. None of which were wounded by us. Yet you say I terrorized people? I'll not argue that some jackasses have done some despicable things to some of the local population in the various countries we've deployed to. War does things to some people that can't be explained...it has for centuries. There is no excuse for it. But, neither I nor my guys are or were,..Terrorist.
Now, you want to say the sacrifices my team and I endured did nothing to help you!....There's a reason for that. Over there, family and civilian friends are just a thought. WE become our family. We may not all get along but, we become a family that you wouldn't understand. GP,..as a former Ranger you should know how teammates become brothers.....and that's who you fight for. Mom and Apple pie mean nothing at that time because they aren't there. You fight the battles in other places in hopes of keeping the fight from your backyard. Hmmm...come to think about it,...keeping the fight over did kinda help after all.
Oh,...what about the National Guard men and women that have not only deployed to combat theaters but, have helped countless communities after/during hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, and forest fires?!

TOWS220
November 16, 2014, 08:18
Guy certainly redacted everything he said quickly. I have no issue with his opinions, but have a spine once you have told the world what you believe.

Trypcil
November 16, 2014, 10:48
Amazing how powerful words can be - in the wrong hands they can be downright dangerous - it seems! Speak first and reason later - it's carnage out there, emotions inflamed, cats kicked, buttshurt, walls punched and calls for a virtual lynching - there's already a call for an Internet License! Aaaah freedom, smells like a fight of a most unreasonable nature. Maybe they should be teaching Logic and debate skills in kindergarten - foot in mouth prevention works better in the long term, than a bung in the hole. Forrest, was right!

gunplumber
November 16, 2014, 10:51
I recently retired from 20 years of service. I did combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Neither I nor my teammates terrorized any of the local population. We treated them with a degree of respect and common courtesy. I gave candy, soccer balls and dolls, purchased from my own pocket, to kids. I treated wounded civilians..adults and children. None of which were wounded by us. Yet you say I terrorized people? I'll not argue that some jackasses have done some despicable things to some of the local population in the various countries we've deployed to. War does things to some people that can't be explained...it has for centuries. There is no excuse for it. But, neither I nor my guys are or were,..Terrorist.
Now, you want to say the sacrifices my team and I endured did nothing to help you!....There's a reason for that. Over there, family and civilian friends are just a thought. WE become our family. We may not all get along but, we become a family that you wouldn't understand. GP,..as a former Ranger you should know how teammates become brothers.....and that's who you fight for. Mom and Apple pie mean nothing at that time because they aren't there. You fight the battles in other places in hopes of keeping the fight from your backyard. Hmmm...come to think about it,...keeping the fight over did kinda help after all.
Oh,...what about the National Guard men and women that have not only deployed to combat theaters but, have helped countless communities after/during hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, and forest fires?!

blah blah blah blah - you just don't get it.

All you're "we're so grand tra la la la la la" crap doesn't change the fact that I used to walk across the runway and onto a commercial aircraft without passing through any security. Thousands of lives and billions of dollars later, I've got my shoes and belt off and I'm being groped by a guy too stupid to be hired by WalMart.

America is a FAR GREATER totalitarian police state now than 30 years ago, so please - explain to us - since the fall of the Berlin Wall, how has the US military secured my freedoms?

Hey - it's okay. Once I reconciled the fact that I was just a tool for the corporate oligarchy and globalist bankers, I just saw service as great training to be used against those same people when the time comes.

Thorack
November 16, 2014, 11:10
GP,

So you were a voluntary very well trained tool of the oligarchs and studied for an advanced degree that would have only supported oligarchs? Sounds like you may have been an uber tool at one time?

Thorack

gunplumber
November 16, 2014, 11:13
GP,

So you were a voluntary very well trained tool of the oligarchs and studied for an advanced degree that would have only supported oligarchs? Sounds like you may have been an uber tool at one time?

Thorack

yes.

My enlightenment came with recognizing that fact. Military service is great - young men need the challenge, discipline, training, etc. Builds character. Everyone should serve at some point, whether the military, or something like a religious mission or the Peace Corp. But really - pretending the military is protecting our freedoms by stomping on hornets nests, is just stupid. Just don't think too hard about who's using the tool, and for what, or long periods of depression may ensue.

ftierson
November 16, 2014, 11:25
Ha! Nope, missed that one.

The "Civil War", now- that was a tough decision as to what side to fight for.

:)

Forrest

ftierson
November 16, 2014, 11:42
yes.

My enlightenment came with recognizing that fact. Military service is great - young men need the challenge, discipline, training, etc. Builds character. Everyone should serve at some point, whether the military, or something like a religious mission or the Peace Corp. But really - pretending the military is protecting our freedoms by stomping on hornets nests, is just stupid. Just don't think to hard about who's using the tool, and for what, or long periods of depression may ensue.

No one disputes that our military attracts some of the best of us, mostly people wanting to serve what they perceive (because they've bought into the governmental propaganda) as our great nation.

And this in no way should be taken as an attack on our Constitution because it's a great document. Unfortunately, our own government (and those controlling it) is currently the Constitution's greatest enemy...

Having served a couple of tours in Vietnam to defend the United States from nasty bad guys, it didn't take me too long to figure out who the real nasty bad guys really were...

And they continue to rape the country on the backs of those serving in the military. Shit, we have a VP so stupid that he publicly misstates (understates) US casualties in the Afghanistan/Iraq wars by more than a factor of ten. That's because they don't give a shit except how it affects their continuing ability to suck us dry...

Finally achieving that understanding will set your soul free...

Forrest

PS Given current events, does anyone think that Afghanistan and Iraq are worth 6703 American deaths and over 51,000 wounded (and that doesn't even count the casualties of our allies...)?

ftierson
November 16, 2014, 11:55
PS Given current events, does anyone think that Afghanistan and Iraq are worth 6703 American deaths and over 51,000 wounded (and that doesn't even count the casualties of our allies...)?

Oh, and I probably should have mentioned the bankrupting of our nation...

Forrest

hangfire762
November 16, 2014, 14:03
blah blah blah blah - you just don't get it.

All you're "we're so grand tra la la la la la" crap doesn't change the fact that I used to walk across the runway and onto a commercial aircraft without passing through any security. Thousands of lives and billions of dollars later, I've got my shoes and belt off and I'm being groped by a guy too stupid to be hired by WalMart.

America is a FAR GREATER totalitarian police state now than 30 years ago, so please - explain to us - since the fall of the Berlin Wall, how has the US military secured my freedoms?
Hey - it's okay. Once I reconciled the fact that I was just a tool for the corporate oligarchy and globalist bankers, I just saw service as great training to be used against those same people when the time comes.

No, you don't get it. I served with pride and honor. I resent being labeled a terrorist by someone who's spent the last 12 years or better safe in their own little world. I haven't had blinders on....and I can agree that a lot has changed in the last 30 years...and not a lot for the better. But, blaming it on those serving in the military is like the people who hate police officers. They want nothing to do with them until something happens. Seems like you blame the military for what OUR ELECTED politicians have done.

How the military has secured our freedoms?..I ask this,...where would we be if it didn't exist? I've already mentioned what our national guard does here at home.

As for being a "Tool", there are far more people who join the military with the intent of using their service as a tool to better themselves whither it's by learning a trade or college benefits. So, they use the system for what they can and they're out. I've no problem with that as long as they pull their weight when on duty.

gunplumber
November 16, 2014, 14:33
No, you don't get it. I served with pride and honor.

So did the Waffen SS, what's your point?

I resent being labeled a terrorist by someone who's spent the last 12 years or better safe in their own little world.

That's why those using the term "terrorist" avoid defining it. It is a meaningless epithet meant to malign anyone who kicks power in the balls. But either you're referring to someone else, or you need to work a little on that reading comprehension thing. I generally avoid using the word, because it has no objective meaning.

I can agree that a lot has changed in the last 30 years...and not a lot for the better. But, blaming it on those serving in the military

Who is blaming those who serve? I don't blame my chisel when I f-ck up a rifle stock because I dimensioned it incorrectly, or struck the chisel wrong. The quality and sharpness of the chisel is important, but the customer doesn't care about what a fine chisel I used; only about his ruined stock.

I've already mentioned what our national guard does here at home.

Yes - gun confiscation at Katrina for one . . ..

As for being a "Tool", there are far more people who join the military with the intent of using their service as a tool to better themselves whither it's by learning a trade or college benefits. So, they use the system for what they can and they're out. I've no problem with that as long as they pull their weight when on duty.

Neither do I. I just don't pretend it's about protecting my freedoms.

hangfire762
November 16, 2014, 17:47
Bottom line,...I found the article a slap in the face to all vets. If you disagree that's fine. Just don't compare me to the Waffen SS because you didn't have the same pride in the uniform you wore. People join for different reasons..and different beliefs. Sometimes those beliefs change...sometimes they don't.:beer:

gunplumber
November 16, 2014, 17:56
Bottom line,...I found the article a slap in the face to all vets. If you disagree that's fine. Just don't compare me to the Waffen SS because you didn't have the same pride in the uniform you wore. People join for different reasons..and different beliefs. Sometimes those beliefs change...sometimes they don't.:beer:

(sigh)

Words have meaning. One can usually assume my words mean exactly what they mean, and nothing else.

I didn't compare you to the Waffen SS. I pointed out that soldiers in the Waffen SS also served with pride and honor. Pride, honor, bravery, dedication, courage, sacrifice . . . all the hooah military traits, are independent from the political objective for which the military is employed.

There comes a point in one's intellectual development, when one attempts to correlate the validity of the mission - not just the efficacy in which it is prosecuted. And then, if one concludes, as Pat Tillman did, that "this war is so f-cking illegal!", one must reconcile that conclusion with one's oath and duty. Sometimes it can be rationalized. Sometimes it can't.

The patriot is the one who asks these questions, not the jingoist zealot who's cognition ends with "'Murika - F-ck Yeah!"

hangfire762
November 16, 2014, 18:48
(sigh)

Words have meaning. One can usually assume my words mean exactly what they mean, and nothing else.

I didn't compare you to the Waffen SS. I pointed out that soldiers in the Waffen SS also served with pride and honor. Pride, honor, bravery, dedication, courage, sacrifice . . . all the hooah military traits, are independent from the political objective for which the military is employed.

There comes a point in one's intellectual development, when one attempts to correlate the validity of the mission - not just the efficacy in which it is prosecuted. And then, if one concludes, as Pat Tillman did, that "this war is so f-cking illegal!", one must reconcile that conclusion with one's oath and duty. Sometimes it can be rationalized. Sometimes it can't.

The patriot is the one who asks these questions, not the jingoist zealot who's cognition ends with "'Murika - F-ck Yeah!"

Using the Waffen SS as an example of pride and honor is a poor choice in this instance. Given that there are a number of military units of a high caliber. Though I agree with you're statement of military traits being different from political objective.

And yes, there comes a time when you have to wonder about what is going on and ask questions. If you don't like what's going on, you get out..don't re-up. But we took an oath. "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me." It doesn't matter if it's the president you voted for or not. I know you're gonna have something to say about the oath and that's fine. However when I give my word..take an oath,..I do my best to keep it. If a man isn't as good as his word...then what is he good for.

ftierson
November 16, 2014, 19:02
Actually, using the Waffen SS was a perfect example of men serving with loyalty and honor, especially honoring their chain of command.

A couple of times, high-ranking (and lower-ranking, too) military leaders in the 3rd Reich attempted to assassinate their commander-in-chief. Do you think that was right or wrong?

Forrest

hangfire762
November 16, 2014, 19:04
(sigh)

Words have meaning. One can usually assume my words mean exactly what they mean, and nothing else.

I didn't compare you to the Waffen SS. I pointed out that soldiers in the Waffen SS also served with pride and honor. Pride, honor, bravery, dedication, courage, sacrifice . . . all the hooah military traits, are independent from the political objective for which the military is employed.

[/I]

Ironically one of the best Special Forces operators in the Army was an ex Waffen SS soldier...Larry Thorne...(Lauri Torni). He was Finnish...not German.

gunplumber
November 16, 2014, 19:23
(Oath) It doesn't matter if it's the president you voted for or not. I know you're gonna have something to say about the oath and that's fine. However when I give my word..take an oath,..I do my best to keep it. If a man isn't as good as his word...then what is he good for.

The problem comes when one part of the oath conflicts with another. What do you do when the orders of someone appointed over you conflict with defending the Constitution?

Would you fire on fellow citizens if ordered to? Or would you shoot the officer giving the order?

It's kindof tangential to the discussion, but you did bring it up.

I'm just saying that the guy's rant had at it's core, truth. That the US running willy-nilly about the globe, bombing the shit out of goat-herders so some global corporation can exploit their resources, isn't protecting the American people. And it has consequences. It pisses people off.

It's like the parable of the man and the bird. A man catches a baby bird, and plucks off all its feathers. The bird shivers and is grateful for the warmth of the man's hands. Which it wouldn't need had he not first plucked the feathers.

hangfire762
November 16, 2014, 20:27
Actually, using the Waffen SS was a perfect example of men serving with loyalty and honor, especially honoring their chain of command.

A couple of times, high-ranking (and lower-ranking, too) military leaders in the 3rd Reich attempted to assassinate their commander-in-chief. Do you think that was right or wrong?

Forrest

The only difference is that we can choose to get rid of our tyrants every 4 years.....more or less...8 at the most IF he or she is re-elected.
But, their situation,...In all honesty I would have to agree with what they did. A leader that can't be replaced...a dictator. What choice was there? Different from where we are now though.

hangfire762
November 16, 2014, 20:51
The problem comes when one part of the oath conflicts with another. What do you do when the orders of someone appointed over you conflict with defending the Constitution?

Would you fire on fellow citizens if ordered to? Or would you shoot the officer giving the order?

It's kindof tangential to the discussion, but you did bring it up.

I'm just saying that the guy's rant had at it's core, truth. That the US running willy-nilly about the globe, bombing the shit out of goat-herders so some global corporation can exploit their resources, isn't protecting the American people. And it has consequences. It pisses people off.

It's like the parable of the man and the bird. A man catches a baby bird, and plucks off all its feathers. The bird shivers and is grateful for the warmth of the man's hands. Which it wouldn't need had he not first plucked the feathers.

Well, I do agree with what you've said. All I can say is that myself and many others remained true to a moral code that prevented us from needlessly harming locals in those countries...to treat people like people and not subhuman. And I treated fallen enemy combatants with a degree of respect....which at times was more than ours got at their hands. All the while maintaining our oath.

The service I gave was true and honest. I'm proud of it..just as I'm proud to have served with the teammates I had. I will not be lumped with those who pissed on bodies or committed crimes against civilians. Mr Schuette misplaced his anger and aggravation.

ftierson
November 16, 2014, 21:24
The service I gave was true and honest. I'm proud of it..just as I'm proud to have served with the teammates I had. I will not be lumped with those who pissed on bodies or committed crimes against civilians. Mr Schuette misplaced his anger and aggravation.

And I feel the same way about the service that I gave when in the Army and for decades afterward as I helped build the architecture for the strategic systems and policies that were designed to defend the United States against the Evil Empire, but that doesn't mean that I wasn't used by others. And it also doesn't mean that I haven't come to the conclusion that we have in some ways become the 'enemy' that I always hated and we continue down that road faster all the time at the hands of the people making money from our suffering (those same people who are subverting the constitution that they (like me) have sworn to defend). Defending something you don't follow is the epitome of stupidity. Of course, they aren't stupid, they just lied...

What happens when the presidential candidates from both parties are picked by the same controllers, and your choice is either tweedledum or tweedledee, both of which give you an equally unconstitutional government?

After WW2, we rebuilt the Bundeswehr emphasizing the right of soldiers (especially officers) in the army to judge the orders they were given from a moral/ethical perspective so they would never have to give the excuse, "We were just following orders (when we marched people onto the cattle-cars heading for Majdanek and Sobibor and Belzec and Buchenwald and...)."

In many ways, we were more successful with the German Army than our own.

And in no way am I directing this at you personally, since I believe that you have served as you stated. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the orders you faithfully followed were right (moral/ethical/smart/etc.).

Just sayin'...

Forrest

Edited to add...

PS, I didn't mean to cut the first part of your quoted post off. That was just clumsiness on my part...

ghf
November 17, 2014, 11:25
Once I reconciled the fact that I was just a tool for the corporate oligarchy and globalist bankers, I just saw service as great training to be used against those same people when the time comes

"Airborne".

Mark, I sometimes think that you are wrapped too tight and just a bit too bright for this Board.

Otis Treekiller
November 17, 2014, 11:37
http://www.russmo.com/04_08_20LetterFromHome.gif

markthenewf
November 23, 2014, 00:39
His rant would make sense if he added the caveat "since World War II".

He is largely correct, but without specificity. He should have said The US Military and all it's members are tools of corporate interests. They have done little in my lifetime to enhance the safety and security of the American People, and arguably have made us less free. Our service members may believe they're fighting for Mom and Apple Pie, but the billions of dollars and thousands of lives are for the benefit of globalist oligarchs.


Not trying to make light of all this. Indeed, I'm enjoying all the differing sides here but....

https://asknod.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/1530301_10151814520316681_109981439_n.jpg

ALL FAL
November 26, 2014, 21:50
The Smith is a Schmuk, so what, don't sweat the small stuff, he learned a lesson.

We all have bigger fish to fry.