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ncjeeper
November 09, 2014, 14:40
I was looking at getting a MAC10/9mm as my first sub gun. Is this decent entry level gun?

Sampson1986
November 09, 2014, 16:51
I was looking at getting a MAC10/9mm as my first sub gun. Is this decent entry level gun?

I can't offer any advice on the MAC but I'm sure it would make a great entry level sub gun.

Just be warned...you won't stop with one machine gun. I'm currently looking for my third one. :facepalm:

doneill
November 09, 2014, 19:05
Sampson 1986 is right. It is an addictive hobby.

The mac series are buzz guns. Very fast rate of fire. Not good for kids or folks who are afraid of guns.

The .380 guns are cute. The M11 9 and Mac 10 in .45 or 9mm are other options. I would steer away from the .380 unless you really want a buzz gun. The Mac 10 is boxier while the m11 is longer but thinner top to bottom. I have not had a M11, but I think that the sheet metal is thinner and the rate of fire is faster.

IThere are lots of ways they can be modified to slow the fire and make them ttake different magazines. Now there are a number of uppers now available that allow caliber change (.22, 9mm and 5,56x45) and some even take suomi drums. When I had mine it was pretty much do it yourself or hire a gunsmith to do the mods. I sold mine when I bought an Uzi which is in many ways very similar.

M.45 is more expensive to shoot than 9mm, and I expect that .380 is in-between in price, but I have never bought .380 in bulk.

Another often overlooked entry gun is the Madsen M50. The disadvantage is that there are no caliber conversion. On the other hand they run slowish but run and run. Parts are available. I mention it because they have not escalated in price as much as other guns and some have recently sold at prices competitive to some more expensive Mac series guns. They showed up in a lot of movies including the Godfather.

The Reising is also not too much more expensive and has a more classic look. They can need tuning and are expensive to shoot (.45 acp). Reisings are far more accurate than mac's for the first round but also tend to rise a bit and have a rapid ROF.

Good luck!

Dave O'Neill

SAFN49
November 09, 2014, 20:07
The M11/9 was my first FA. It is a ok entry level FA. You can get a Stemple or other tube gun for a little more. They are more accurate and have a slower rate of fire than the M11/9.

They do make a ton of accessories for the M11. I would say your best bet would be to get a Task slow fire kit.

2barearms
November 09, 2014, 20:36
Haven't looked to see what Mac's are selling for these days but there's an FNC
in the MP here. It's a para. If you can get your hands on a Registered Drop
in Autosear you'd have a real winner.

Sampson1986
November 09, 2014, 21:05
http://davidspiwak.com/page_2.htm

SAFN49
November 09, 2014, 22:49
http://davidspiwak.com/page_2.htm

My choices for a subgun from that page would be

#1 Swedish K
#2 Sterling in 9mm
#3 DLO Sten

Sampson1986
November 11, 2014, 17:05
My choices for a subgun from that page would be

#1 Swedish K
#2 Sterling in 9mm
#3 DLO Sten

Is that it?

Hell, I'd take 'em all. :biggrin:

partisan50
November 11, 2014, 21:34
you won't stop with one machine gun. I'm currently looking for my third one. :facepalm:

Yeah now you tell me. I just picked MG number 4.:facepalm::facepalm:

Sampson1986
November 12, 2014, 17:48
Yeah now you tell me. I just picked MG number 4.:facepalm::facepalm:

What did you get? :bow:

partisan50
November 12, 2014, 18:03
What did you get? :bow:

FN FNC.


What are you looking for?

Sampson1986
November 12, 2014, 19:21
FN FNC.


What are you looking for?

Just about anything full auto.

I do have a soft spot for Japanese light machine guns. I'd love to have a Type 99 or 96 in my safe.

partisan50
November 12, 2014, 20:57
I'll let you know if I see one for sale.

Lee Carpentieri
November 13, 2014, 01:25
If your looking at an entry level NFA weapon try the SWD M11, Then save money for the Lage kit to reduce the RPM down to about 650RPM. A standard M11 fires at about 1100 RPM, I know, I have 5-9mm SMGs,

Colt RO635 M16A2 9mm 950RPM
Swedish K 9mm 550 RPM
S+W M76 which can be awkward as the folding stock isn't the most stable,750RPM
HK MP5K-N-PDW 900RPM
SWD M11 with Bowers suppressor 1100RPM
Plus numerous other 5.56's and 7.62x51mm
machineguns
and a M203 for urban renewal.:shades:

ncjeeper
November 13, 2014, 09:38
I looked at the ones you guys suggested and I ended up with getting the MAC10 in 9mm. Now the long wait to actually get it in my hands.:cry:

kev
November 13, 2014, 14:01
Could be a good choice. The M10/9 has always been my favorite, but that depends of exactly which M10/9. Many of the later ones were built to accept only the single stack zytel magazines like the M11/9 and those are fairly junky magazines and a pain to deal with. Even though the double stack Walther magazines of the earlier Powder Springs and RPB guns are expensive, they're still the way to go. The Powder Springs guns are just solid, reliable SMGs. I've had 4 or 5 M11/9s but I never keep them. They're just such crappy little breaking down bullet hoses in comparison.

dtom29
November 13, 2014, 20:48
Wow, a lot of out dated info in this thread:facepalm:. First the Task slow fire kit isn't even made any more as far as I know. If you want to bring the rate of fire down the Lage uppers are the way to go. With the Lage upper you can pick your rate of fire 650, 750, and I believe 850 or 900. Durable equipment that makes an M11 or MAC competition worthy. Everybody has their opinion on the Mac10/M11. The M11 is lighter, slimmer, has more accessories, and now with the Shockwave metal mags the Zytel mag problem is gone. The Mac 10 is heavier, bulkier, and while Lage has the Mac covered as far as uppers go, Shockwave has not shown an interest in producing their truely excellent mag for the MAC's. Yep, I have an M11 with Lage upper, Suomi upper, the original upper, and Bowers suppressor. That "crappy little breaking down bullet hose:rolleyes:" is sooo much fun...and never a problem with thousands of rounds through it over the past 5 years.
older pic..
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/dtom29/DSC00098.jpg

ncjeeper
November 14, 2014, 10:26
What can are you running?

kev
November 14, 2014, 10:57
Uhmmm,.......that's not an M11/9. That's an M11/9 trigger housing with a subgun built up around it. I'm sure you've got it built to a fine standard now but I'm just talking about the original guns as-issued.

Comparing a PS M10/9 to a SWD M11/9 it's obvious that the M10 was built to some sort of duty standard. It's a heavily built gun manufactured from decent materials. It's 'bulletproof'. The M11 is a soft, tinny little thing that never runs out of parts to break and replace. Run it hard and you end up with something equivalent to an old bicycle chain with 23 master links in it.

What you've done is start with a new chain made up entirely of high quality master links. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure the parts you've used are well designed and well made. People can now put forth the effort to remake the M11/9 into something decent. The value is high enough to warrant the expense, but understand that when the original guns were manufactured it was a different story.

The Early M10s were built for serious purposes with the intent of landing gov't contracts and they were built well. The M11/9s were built in a rush as cheaply/quickly as possible to sell as toys to civilian buyers by a company spiraling into bankruptcy. I know,....every company that ever made an Ingram style subgun eventually went bankrupt doing it but SWD never intended to make anything that wasn't disposable.

The SWD M11/9 is a product of its time. Early to mid-80's is just not a timeframe that produced any subguns of quality. It's a time when a bunch of small, underfunded companies and one man shops were cranking out crappy little subguns as quickly and cheaply as possible, riding a wave that eventually led up to the ban in '86. The M11/9s, the late M10/9s, Stemples, MKs, PAWs, etc. Even the AutoOrd Thompsons. Thankfully all that crap did get papered and now decades later we can strip them all down to the numbered parts and rebuild them into something worthwhile.

I'm sure the Shockwave mags are decent quality magazines but they're still single-position feed. With the exception of the M10/45 I've dumped every subgun I've ever owned if it didn't take two-position feed. I just don't like dealing with the necessity of loading tools and one-at-a-time loading. I've also been fortunate to have been able to upgrade along the way. The 'aftermarket' 'crap' guns of the early to mid 80's were sold off and replaced by 'real' subguns. The MK760 was replaced with a Swede K. The PAWs was replaced with a Sterling. The M11/9s were replaced by an M10/9, an Uzi and an M10/45(I think the M10/9 is a better gun that the Uzi). The Spitfire just went away. People have now taken all those guns I dumped and have made worthwhile subguns out of them, but 15yrs ago it was just easier to swap them out for something better. With NFA prices where they are now it's almost mandatory to improve what you've got or what you can get. The M11/9 can now be a competitive, quality subgun,........but it's really not an M11/9 anymore other than on the form4.

ncjeeper
November 14, 2014, 22:09
Mine is an early model.

dtom29
November 15, 2014, 05:06
What can are you running?

Bowers CAC9. A good High volume suppressor for subguns. I just read that Bowers was discontinuing the CAC for the VERS 9, a better, lighter package. Tom Bowers will upgrade any CAC to VERS internals.
Kev, The M11 is lighter because the Mac10 in 9 is over built and heavier than it needs to be. Running the original upper has not resulted in any parts problems either. Very few who own the Mac series leave them original. Most end up with Lage products because as time marches on better things become available. We take advantage of that. MAC, bigger boxier...but not better.:wink:

dtom29
November 15, 2014, 05:35
Kev, I reread your last post again...While I agree that the Mac series is more robust, I don't see that as a plus given the available upgrades. I see your point concerning the "original" Mac/M11, although I still think you over state the "tinny little thing". You leave the uninformed with the impression that you can fold the M11 in half with your bare hands. That just isn't the case. Today, not 1986, The M11 is a better choice given the upgrades available. I'm sure anyone with a MAC10 will be pleased with their subgun, as will anyone with an M11.

kev
November 15, 2014, 11:49
I don't know much about Lage other than that he knows what he's doing, he makes good quality, well designed parts and that he's great to deal with. That said, my opinions were formed well before his stuff came on the market.

The M11/9's tend to break welds because the receiver material is so much thinner. I've had to hammer multiple uppers back to square/flat following kabooms which tend to be pretty common affairs with open-bolt subguns with fixed firing pins. Both the uppers and lowers are 'underbuilt' but you can say it the other way if you like. Cheap, tinny is how it comes off on my end. The guns are flimsier than most others and the only ones that are close are the other 'junk' guns. Probably the biggest problem is the too small trunnion and barrel breech. The chambers commonly split or bell out. The M11 receiver dimensions were originally designed for .380. Daniels stretched the receiver(and bolt)and stuffed 9mm in there. The gun is underbuilt,.....really no way to argue against that.

I'm sure it's a much better gun with all the updates. I suffer from the experience of seeing that most of the earlier upgrades came with their own set of problems and no matter what you did with the gun 10-15yrs ago, although slower/easier to shoot/more accurate, it still suffered from wear and breakdowns. I only got rid of mine when I realized it was never going to be anything but a troublesome range toy.

Maybe that's changed now. You would know better than I. I've never inspected the upgrades you have and I only follow any of the MAC stuff from a good distance. My opinion is that the M10 series has always been an under-rated gun because of the M11 series,.......so I always recommend the original. The M11/9 has always been more popular because it's more common and because it's more common it has always had more aftermarket stuff available for it,........which has made it more popular.

And no matter what else,.......I've still got a hangup with the single-position feed magazines no matter how well they're made. I've never personally had a 'problem' with the Zytels, but I have a theory that the splitting problem was usually the result of hamfisted owners that didn't understand how to load single-feed mags. I've seen goofballs at the range just jamming rounds straight down into them without a loader as if the mags were double-feed. No doubt they spent time complaining about seam splits and worn feedlips.

ncjeeper,..........if your 'early' M10/9 takes the original Walther style double feed mags(the original mags WERE Walther MPL mags), you're going to find that those mags are very spendy. $120-200 each spendy, but they are worth it. There's another original milsurp magazine out there that can often be found cheap that works just as well with a very minor modification,.....the Czech VZ23/VZ25 magazine. It's a copy of the Walther mag and can be found in 25rd(rare)and 40rd versions. Takes some serious looking but when they pop up they're never more than $15-25 apiece. You just need to be careful when looking for them because most people don't realize there's a difference between them and the more common VZ24/VZ26 magazines. VZ23/VZ25 are 9mm,.......VZ24/VZ26 are 7.62x25 and won't fit the magwell. When I find the 9mm magazines they're either improperly labeled VZ24/VZ26 or they're listed as 'unknown'. I don't think I've ever seen one properly identified which is probably why I find them cheap.

The magazine situation has always been the one drawback of the M10/9 which is why the later guns just gave up and used the Zytels. Guys have changed out the grip/magwell to convert to other more common double-feed mags like Uzi and Swede K. Beretta might be another good choice, but I would prefer to keep the gun original and either pay for the original mags or dig around and find the Czechs. I'd have no qualms about changing one of the later M10/9 single-stacks though and there are a couple of gunsmiths that offer than service,.....usually to Uzi mags but that's another hard-loading magazine that I'm not too fond of. Anyway, post up info and pics of your gun if you have them or when you get it transferred in and we can work on magazines. You definitely do need to start planning for a suppressor and whatever Tom Bowers has is what I'd want myself. Good dude,.......I've got several of the CAC9s myself. Just remember that you don't want a small can for a SMG. Lotta gas in a burst and only a high volume suppressor can do anything with that.

kev
November 15, 2014, 12:19
dtom29, thanks for the discussion. If I had taken the time to admit to one simple fact there's a good chance that we'd be seeing eye-to-eye on this because I'm pretty sure we're both right. In fact, you're probably more right in most cases.

I'm not an accessorizer. I collect and shoot everything in pretty much original condition so none of my FALs or ARs or AKs have rails and all my machineguns are as-issued. Because of that I appreciate the robustness of the M10 and more or less don't even think about all the things the M11/9 can be. I've got maybe a dozen different subguns so the only real reason to have a MAC type is to fill the niche that the original guns filled,........a small compact bullet hose type of weapon. I'm only mentioning this because in my situation there's not much reason to modify a MAC into something else. If I need it to be slower or smoother or heavier or longer or whatever I do have different guns that can fill those roles. What I don't have is another gun that is as compact and easily suppressible as the Ingram so any modifications to it really make it less useful 'to me'.

All this stuff is just the result of having been a dealer back in the day when NFA was easier to come by and much less expensive. In fact, the only MAC-type I have left is an M10/45(although my personal favorite was the M10/9 that a friend ended up with)and I only have that one because it was essentially 'free'. Bought two unbuilt frames and built them both up,....sold one for what I had in the pair. Same basic thing happened with the rest of my collection. While I was in, prices were rising so fast(and the damn transfers were so slow)that you couldn't help but double your money on every sale so I siphoned off a sizeable quantity of guns for my personal collection. That being said, I probably look at these things from a different perspective than most shooters.

ncjeeper
November 16, 2014, 10:37
Thanks Kev good info. I went with the 10 instead of the 11 for the reasons you mentioned. Yeah rounding up good mags will be a challenge. I went to us machineguns web site and the have some for 49 bucks each.

kev
November 16, 2014, 11:51
Woah,.....I'd hold up on that.

I'm looking at that website and it's the worst thing I've ever seen on the net. They don't say much about the double-feed M10/9 mags so you really don't know what they are. I suspect over-priced aftermarket crap. Looking a their prices on other items I think you need to tread slowly here.

*Sten Steel 30 Round 9mm Pre Ban Magazine......$59.99 (These are $10 anywhere else)

*SUOMI 9mm Double Feed 36 Round Steel Magazine.......$69.99 (These are $10 anywhere else)

*M1 Carbine .30cal 30rd Magazine(Korean).........$52.99 (These are $10-15 anywhere else)

*MagPul 30 Round Polymer Magazine for AR-15 (Black).......$29.99 (These are $10 anywhere else)

John A
November 16, 2014, 13:30
Richard Lage is premiere top shelf for a reason. #1 His stuff rocks. #2 He and his wife who run the place treat people with respect, dignity, honesty and their customer service is 2nd to none.

I have an SWD finished Texas Mac M10/9. It's built like a tank. I have even experienced a squib and subsequent out of battery detonation with no damage to the receiver or upper whatsoever.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n33/blocksender/uzi/9mmsubguns001_zps7965c18b.jpg

My particular gun uses either M11 zytel magazines, or I modified my own Suomi 36 round mags to use with the Lage upper.

In order to modify the Suomi magazines, you must remove the original front and rear latch on the mags to get the proper front to back measurements to fit inside of the magwell, then you must weld an extended mag catch and mag stops to the magazines and then some sort of refinish.

While it is pretty straightforward, is very time consuming so it's really no wonder why the converted Suomi mags cost as much as they do.

Here are the magazines that I modified and hand fit to the gun myself.

If anyone objects to paying for the modified Suomi mags, then please buy the $16 unmodified ones and do it yourself and then ask yourself if the mags are worth it or not.


http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n33/blocksender/M10A1/Suomimagcatchandstops007.jpg

http://s108.photobucket.com/user/blocksender/media/M10A1/Suomimagcatchandstops010.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n33/blocksender/M10A1/Suomimags004.jpg

Sam at Practical solutions can also swap your existing Mac magwell to use other types of magazines. Including sten and uzi mags, though he has recently moved across country and is in the process of getting the business/website in order.

http://macmachineguns.com/?product_cat=mac-conversions-and-22-kits

The gun is easy to shoot, maintain, accurate, and reliable.

video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLnNKeCCTh0

BigBoy1
November 18, 2014, 14:04
Here is my first SMG I bought. I got it 1969 from the GI who brought it home and registered it in the Amnesty. Cost me a whole $300 which included the $200 transfer fee.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t308/i422twains/PICT0273_zps7e99545d.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/i422twains/media/PICT0273_zps7e99545d.jpg.html)