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spider991
October 30, 2014, 20:21
Guys, its been a long time coming but now I have decided I have to get a 10 mm semi auto. I just want something different and ammo is no problem because I reload a lot. I think it'll make a great Outback gun wen i go to the woods. I have been searching the Internet for quite a while now and have narrowed it down to the Rock Island armory or the EAA witness I love the 1911 and I think the Rock Island is going to be great. I have read all the articles and reviews but I trust this membership a ton more...Please regale me with tales of your personal experiences and help me make an informed decision on my next, great heartbreak!

spider991
October 31, 2014, 09:49
nothing? wow... never seen this bunch speechless:uhoh:

MAINER
October 31, 2014, 10:05
Sorry, but I'm still waiting for the Bren Ten to come out. Had my order in for quite some time now. :redface:

I did get to shoot a friend's Colt Delta Elite and was suitably impressed. Very loud and snappy in the 1911. Impressive terminal ballistics too. :biggrin:

Interesting cartridge, should be a good choice for your "Outback gun".

I'm thinking of rigging up a 45 Super myself, but I think I can load those 10MM's with the same dies as the .40 S&W...so maybe...:whistling:


https://www.vltor.com/2014/01/09/bren-ten-update-2014-2/

Much smoke, no fire.

SAFN49
October 31, 2014, 11:09
I actually had my hands on a Bren 10 but couldn't justify cutting down 30-06 brass to make the cases.

The original Colt 10mm's using the original 10mm loads had a frame cracking problem above the slide release. If you want an auto loader 1911 with 10mm power why not go with a Coonan 357 magnum?

http://www.coonaninc.com/products.php/pistol/cPath,5/osCsid,a88a171c8e8371d27294544cf8c07fcb

fnogger
October 31, 2014, 12:01
Love my Rock Island in 45.

Of the 2 though, if I wanted 10mm, I'd go with the steel frame Witness. And then I'd get the conversion kits to go with it for 45, 40, 9mm, and 22lr. Guess if you wanted you could also get the 38 super and 357 sig conversions too.

nearmisses
October 31, 2014, 14:57
10mm is a great cartridge. I got my son in law to buy one in 2006 and he loves it. A gunsmith buddy was a full blown 1911 colt 45acp nut and convinced him the 10 was better. He now carries 2! He has probably done more loading and testing with it on than anyone else I know. I don't see him anymore but he was quite impressed by it. He even made up 2 special ones with round rails instead of the standard ones square cut. I like the one S&W made. pretty robust. The Bren 10 would have been fine and there is talk it is coming about but I spent too much money waiting for one too. The Glock doesn't thrill me but it is a great woods carry piece. The Delta Elite was sweet and they did solve the frame cracking problem I have one of the American Classic Phillipino guns, the Amigo and it is as good or better than my Series 70 Colt was out of the box. I haven't shot it as much but for the bucks I don't see a problem. The Rock Island Armory one looked good to me and I would buy one if I had a need for 10mm over the Colt Delta Elite. I just don't want to give up my 45acp and can't afford a new caliber or I would. That Witness is almost a Bren 10 in many respects but a bit big and DA's I don't like. My other friend had one in a 45 and liked it fine but he's a Glock and 1911 guy so he dumped it too. Hope that helps.

MAINER
October 31, 2014, 15:03
EAA Witness had problems with frames cracking. They may have since found a solution to this, I don't know.
Just something I would check into before purchasing one.

spider991
October 31, 2014, 20:59
I absolutely love my rock island armory 45..and they have super customer service. ..I held a witness elite match and wow...what a gorgeous pistol..As far as frames cracking, that issue was with the wonder finish ones and they fixed that I think..The elite match has super ratings..might order next week. But I keep looking at the rock island because I love the company.....crap...I'm no further now than I was last week:screwy:

catmguy445
November 01, 2014, 16:31
Wow, I hadn't thought about the Bren 10 in years. I suppose one of these years I should do something with them. I have two of them, and even have magazines for them. One is new in the box and unfired, the other one has had one magazine of Norma 10mm Auto run through it. Both have the diapers and everything else that they came with from D&D. I also have a Bren 10 poster and somewhere buried in my boxes of "stuff I don't want to throw out but don't have any real use for now" is a bunch of Bren 10 literature and ads and stuff that D&D sent me.

If you're wondering how I came to have two of them, back in the short-lived heyday of Messers Dornaus and Dixon, I was one of their dealers, and at one time I had 8 Bren 10's in my shop. Two for me (the two I still have) and six for customers, which all got delivered to the customers. I won't bore you with the details of all the mistakes Dornaus and Dixon made that led to the demise of their company. Let's just say that there were numerous mistakes made that proved fatal, along with some really bad luck.

Of course, the irony here is that although their commercial venture failed, the cartridge they came up with is still around, and of course, S&W's .40 S&W is a HUGE success. It wasn't derived from the 10mm Auto, but if it hadn't been for the 10mm, S&W might not have ever dusted off the .40 S&W and it would still be languishing in some dusty warehouse full of all sorts of things S&W came up with but didn't try to market.

So thanks for the reminder about the Bren 10. It's an interesting, and fairly important, part of recent firearms history. And by the way, Mainer, I don't think you can load 10mm with .40 S&W dies. The 10mm Auto cartridge is longer than the .40 S&W, so I don't think it would work. However, from the cobwebs and detritus in the back of my mind comes a thought. If you took the spacer ring from a .38/.357 Mag die set and used it with the .40 S&W dies, it might work for 10mm brass. But if you try that, you're on your own. I've never tried that and I don't know if it would work or not, or whether it would be safe or not. But you're welcome to the idea.

Retired Bum
November 01, 2014, 17:57
The .30-06 is not the parent case for the 10mm Auto. It is the .30 Remington. Way back about 1972 an editor for Guns & Ammo magazine whose name was Whit Collins came up with a wildcat pistol cartridge which he called the .40 G&A. He took the .30 Remington rifle case and cut it down to about .850 inch and then inside neck reamed it so he could load the Winchester .38-40 180 grain JSP bullet to the same length of the 9mm Luger which is 1.169 inches. He had Barsto make up a custom barrel for a Browning High Power and then modified the HP's breech face, extractor and ejector so they would fit the cut down .30 Rem case. He modified the 13 round magazine so it would hold ten rounds of his new wildcat cartridge.

Chronograph testing showed that the modified HP would drive that 180 grain JSP at 950 fps without excessive pressure signs. This .40 G&A wildcat is the ancestor of the 10mm Auto round developed in Sweden by Norma circa 1982-83 for the Dornaus & Dixon Bren Ten pistol based on the CZ-75 design.

Dornaus & Dixon only produced 1500 Bren Ten pistols and most of those were shipped without magazines. D&D went belly up in 1986 and thousands of customers who had paid in full for a Bren Ten lost their money. Norma ceased production of the 10mm Auto and it looked like it was headed for the bone yard.

But in 1987 Colt announced the introduction of the Delta Elite version of the Gov't Model and the 10mm Auto was saved from extinction. I bought a new 1988 produced DE and still have it to this day.

AFAIK Whit Collins never got the credit he deserved for his wildcat .40 G&A round. Ironically, in 1994, the Browning Mark III High Power was introduced chambered for the .40 S&W round. So it all came full circle. I bought one of the Standard Model HP's chambered for the .40 S&W with the Millet adjustable rear sight. An excellent shooting pistol and it all happened because one man had the foresight to look ahead.

And so it goes.


The Retired One

Guy-epic
November 01, 2014, 19:29
Rock River I hear makes a really solid starter pistol. I don't own one but it is one of the few my gun smith will build on. He is very picky so when he says someone is doing it right I tend to listen. As for the 10 mm thing I like the rounds ballistics on paper and have shot a few. If I reloaded more I would probably get one. I know that you can make a endless amount of rounds to play with if you are into that.

SAFN49
November 01, 2014, 23:17
The .30-06 is not the parent case for the 10mm Auto. It is the .30 Remington.

And so it goes.


The Retired One


Now that you mention it, it was a 44 auto mag I was remembering. How time flies... Auto mags and Bren 10's. The good old days.

Reconinforce
November 02, 2014, 08:08
Where are the pics? I need me some pictures! :)

cwo4uscgret
November 07, 2014, 22:17
I actually had my hands on a Bren 10 but couldn't justify cutting down 30-06 brass to make the cases.

The original Colt 10mm's using the original 10mm loads had a frame cracking problem above the slide release. If you want an auto loader 1911 with 10mm power why not go with a Coonan 357 magnum?

http://www.coonaninc.com/products.php/pistol/cPath,5/osCsid,a88a171c8e8371d27294544cf8c07fcb

Was solved by Colt by cutting the slide stop pin hole differently; primarily leaving the top of the frame above the hole open thus relieving the stress.

I have two Delta Elites, one original in Blue, the other a new version in stainless. I also have a Glock Model 29 10mm, a Rock Island full-size Tactical model without rail and a Commander sized Tactical, with rail both in 10mm.

Most modern 10mm ammo is loaded down to .40 S&W loadings; the best way to maximize 10mm is to reload the ammo.

spider991
November 09, 2014, 13:39
Was solved by Colt by cutting the slide stop pin hole differently; primarily leaving the top of the frame above the hole open thus relieving the stress.

I have two Delta Elites, one original in Blue, the other a new version in stainless. I also have a Glock Model 29 10mm, a Rock Island full-size Tactical model without rail and a Commander sized Tactical, with rail both in 10mm.

Most modern 10mm ammo is loaded down to .40 S&W loadings; the best way to maximize 10mm is to reload the ammo.

If you have those then you are the one to give an opinion...please rate your rock island 10mm and the glock.:D

MAINER
November 12, 2014, 09:36
And by the way, Mainer, I don't think you can load 10mm with .40 S&W dies. The 10mm Auto cartridge is longer than the .40 S&W, so I don't think it would work. However, from the cobwebs and detritus in the back of my mind comes a thought. If you took the spacer ring from a .38/.357 Mag die set and used it with the .40 S&W dies, it might work for 10mm brass. But if you try that, you're on your own. I've never tried that and I don't know if it would work or not, or whether it would be safe or not. But you're welcome to the idea.


Thanks for the bit of history, always thought it a shame that the Bren died an early death.
For reference, I dug out my RCBS dies and the label states they are ".40S&W/10MM Auto". Can't confirm the 10MM part, as yet anyway.

Spider, while I like the 10MM Auto cartridge and love my 1911 pistols, the two don't go together for me.
Did you see the post about Sig contemplating a 226? in 10MM? :biggrin:
That ought to get VLTOR off the pot!

douglas
November 12, 2014, 15:31
Sig Sauer is releasing a P220 in 10mm. If it runs like their P220 in .45, it would be worth looking into.

spider991
November 14, 2014, 23:57
Sig Sauer is releasing a P220 in 10mm. If it runs like their P220 in .45, it would be worth looking into.

That is THE one i want but i dont want to wait for this unicorn pistol, but i do love the 220.....nor do i look forward to the inevitable 900.00$ pricetag....maybe i will just grab the EAA

STGThndr
November 22, 2014, 10:25
Get the Glock in 10mm and a few mags. And maybe a heavier than stock recoil spring. I don't care for the Colt in a heavy round like the Ten, and I have issues with the EAA people and won't touch them or their products. YMMV!

cwo4uscgret
November 25, 2014, 15:52
If you have those then you are the one to give an opinion...please rate your rock island 10mm and the glock.:D

Spider - I would always put the 1911s ahead of the Glock although I am not an Anti-Glock fanboy. I carried a Glock 17 for the first 5 years of my CBP; it was accurate and reliable; but not my own personal choice in sidearms.

I have shot both my full-sized and commander sized Rock Island 1911s - they function as good as the Delta Elites; however, despite having a full length rail (and steel frame) the recoil on the Commander sized 1911 is stouter; but not unmanageable or punishing.

W.E.G.
November 25, 2014, 16:54
Why fool with .40, when they make a .41 :devil:

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/pistol%20pics/Model%2057/DSCN8825smaller.jpg