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View Full Version : UPS AND CALIFORNIA SUCK, STOLEN BROWNING HI-POWER


raexcct2
October 03, 2014, 05:40
As you can tell from my thread title, I am really pissed. I broke my cardinal rule of never selling a firearm to anyone in California.

My reward for selling my custom Novaks Special Ops Package Browning Hi-Power in .40 S&W was that some UPS asshole stole my pistol.

I paid to ship the pistol overnight last week and the pistol didn't make it to Sunnyvale, California until Tuesday. So much for overnight service. It was scanned as having arrived in Sunnyvale that day and now it is gone, disappeared and UPS can't find it.

Even if they (UPS) pays the insurance,and that is highly doubtful as I am learning, I have to repay the $1900 the buyer paid me and I am out a pistol that cost me more than $1900.

F&%k UPS and California. I wish a earthquake would just swallow up that shithole state. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

croftonaviation
October 03, 2014, 07:11
Man all I can say is that sucks. I hope they at least pay the insurance claim.


Fuggers.

Tom

hagar
October 03, 2014, 09:04
If you paid the insurance and makes an honest attempt to recover funds, why should you pay the seller back for the risk he took getting it shipped to him?

xtremerange
October 03, 2014, 10:17
Or is it the risk the seller takes in delivering the merchandise to the buyer?

SAFN49
October 03, 2014, 10:43
and notify the CA DOJ and ATF about the stolen firearm. They may take a hard look at the UPS center and the employees. This could be an ongoing issue at that facility.

W.E.G.
October 03, 2014, 10:50
Yes.

That well and truly sucks.

I always specify on gun-shipping that the BUYER accepts responsibility for any loss during shipping. I pledge only to cooperate fully in the event of insurance claims or investigation.

FOB my point of shipping.

L Haney
October 03, 2014, 10:52
Or is it the risk the seller takes in delivering the merchandise to the buyer?

Excellent question. Where exactly is the demarcation of responsibility? The seller has surrendered possession to the shipper, the shipper is insured, where does the buyer fit in this equation?

4 brigada
October 03, 2014, 11:46
Sorry to hear that, we receive huge shipments of orders and private party transfers from UPS and FedEx and not one was ever lost , forget about being stolen. But like someone posted BATFE and CA DOJ (wont get much help from CA DOJ) need to find the POS.

raexcct2
October 03, 2014, 13:42
Sorry to hear that, we receive huge shipments of orders and private party transfers from UPS and FedEx and not one was ever lost , forget about being stolen. But like someone posted BATFE and CA DOJ (wont get much help from CA DOJ) need to find the POS.
Thanks guys. I am headed to my FFL dealer who shipped it and let him know what's going on. I was wondering if I should also contact Sunnyvale PD or will that be a waste of time?

2barearms
October 03, 2014, 18:56
Since it's a Pistol your only other safe option was to have an FFL ship
it USPS Registered Mail. I've shipped some very rare expensive stuff
via Registered Mail and never had a problem.

Guy-epic
October 03, 2014, 20:11
Yes.

That well and truly sucks.

I always specify on gun-shipping that the BUYER accepts responsibility for any loss during shipping. I pledge only to cooperate fully in the event of insurance claims or investigation.

FOB my point of shipping.

This is another reason I am not big in non FTF sales, but I will always use this if I do from here on out. That's sucks so bad!

raexcct2
October 03, 2014, 20:22
This is another reason I am not big in non FTF sales, but I will always use this if I do from here on out. That's sucks so bad!

Yep, I have seen W.E.G.'s sales conditions before and I think I will have to start using them.

I also will go back to my no California policy. That's what I get for trying to help a Californian gun owner. No good deed goes unpunished.

raexcct2
October 06, 2014, 15:45
Tried calling the ATF agent in charge of that area in California but the call went straight to voice mail so I e-mailed him all the pertinent information.

Not looking good so far. Package is still "lost" per UPS.

Andy the Aussie
October 06, 2014, 15:55
That sucks greatly !!!!!!!! I was drooling over the pics of the BHP when you posted here....I hate now to think some dick fingered POS is now in possession of such a fine tool... :(

MAINER
October 06, 2014, 18:14
This is NOT giving me a warm comfy feeling, them pogue's has my Colt. :sad:

I will be keeping my nuts crossed until delivery time tomorrow. :uhoh:

Same as Andy said, sure hope your BHP shows up. Disturbs me to think some low-life got a fine pistol like that without shedding the appropriate amount of blood, sweat and shekels for it. :redface:

SAFN49
October 06, 2014, 21:51
Just wait until you deliver a sample the ATF Tech Branch and they lose your $5000 sample :whistling:

GM4spd
October 06, 2014, 21:58
Bad situation for sure,I hope it gets recovered intact. I appreciate that you
would sell to us here in CA. I've been here 20 years and firearms situations
are not getting better and they NEVER will. I have ONE metric FAL mag
that is a 20 rd body blocked to 10 (which is legal).It has a dent and does not feed well,
however I can't even buy the BODY of the mag because a lot of people won't
ship me one because they think it is illegal. Yes,it is real easy to say get up
and move but it's not always that easy. Pete

raexcct2
October 07, 2014, 12:26
Bad situation for sure,I hope it gets recovered intact. I appreciate that you
would sell to us here in CA. I've been here 20 years and firearms situations
are not getting better and they NEVER will. I have ONE metric FAL mag
that is a 20 rd body blocked to 10 (which is legal).It has a dent and does not feed well,
however I can't even buy the BODY of the mag because a lot of people won't
ship me one because they think it is illegal. Yes,it is real easy to say get up
and move but it's not always that easy. Pete

Pete,

PM your address and I'll send you a metric magazine body. I'm not sure what the going price on metric mag bodies is right now, so as a favor to you poor Californian's, send me $15.75 for the magazine body and shipping. The magazine body is used and will probably need to be degreased as it's been in storage for a while. Also let me know the legalities of shipping other magazine parts to your state as California law changes so much that I can't keep track.

I already sent you a PM with my information.

Funny that after I called the ATF, UPS "found" the pistol but rather than delivery it to the receiving FFL in California they shipped it back here to Utah. Unfortunately, my dealer was closed today so delivery couldn't be made. Hopefully it will get delivered tomorrow and the package will still contain the pistol as it's going right back to California.

4 brigada
October 07, 2014, 12:35
funny that the law that doesn't allow pinned magazines in CA was never signed. But the rest of the NON CA residents know all the laws better than the people that are in the gun business in CA. Guess it must be that they get a paycheck from the CA DOJ. Thanks for helping CA FAL Filer's raexcct2

W.E.G.
October 07, 2014, 12:45
UPS "found" the pistol

Just to be sure of the facts here.

This was one of their "blue label" overnight shipments that you have to pay-out-the-ass for?

And they "lost" it for several days?

And now instead of delivering the goddam thing to the addressee, they are sending it back to you?

Yes?

What thefuck is going on here?

4 brigada
October 07, 2014, 12:49
As raexcct2 posted. I also think there was some shady crap being leveled at him.

raexcct2
October 07, 2014, 13:33
Just to be sure of the facts here.

This was one of their "blue label" overnight shipments that you have to pay-out-the-ass for?

And they "lost" it for several days?

And now instead of delivering the goddam thing to the addressee, they are sending it back to you?

Yes?

What thefuck is going on here?

Yes, to all questions. You see now why I was pissed. The buyer and I are sharing the cost of the return shipping. This really soured me on UPS. Never had any previous problems shipping firearms with them.

hagar
October 07, 2014, 14:10
I would dispute the charge if you paid with a credit card. And use FedEx in the future. Not that they don't rip you off even more for overnight shipping, but I have had good luck with them.

Sig220
October 07, 2014, 14:14
Yes, to all questions. You see now why I was pissed. The buyer and I are sharing the cost of the return shipping. This really soured me on UPS. Never had any previous problems shipping firearms with them.

Ah hell.....they are going to charge you to re-ship this firearm after failing to properly ship it the first time? The hair on my neck is starting to stand up!!

I think I would have to talk with the UPS local manager, first.

jam762
October 08, 2014, 08:40
Good to hear that they found your package!

I had something similar happen to another files member and I.
I purchased a rifle in the MP, sent money to seller, seller ships rifle.
The rifle was shipped UPS & traveled from AZ to Lexington,KY and stopped. It was scheduled to arrive at my FFL in Ashland, KY on a Wednesday. Wednesday passed, Thursday passed with no change in the tracking and no rifle at my FFL.

Friday morning I called UPS & opened an investigation. Called the seller and we both started trying to find out what happened to the rifle.

Monday came and no update from UPS on the status. The seller calls me and tells me that UPS contacted him and stated that the rifle was shipped back to AZ by mistake and is being shipped back to the destination.

Communications with the seller was great but I can't say the same for UPS.

It took 2 weeks for the rifle to arrive at my FFL from the time it was shipped. It was a long 2 weeks:D.

raexcct2
October 09, 2014, 05:28
Pistol made it back to Utah but UPS said since the pistol made it to California, even though they lost it there, that I would have to pay again to get it shipped back.

My dealer doesn't ship FEDEX and it is cheaper for me to ship through him rather than ship through UPS or FEDEX as an individual.

GM4spd,

Are you still interested in the FAL magazine body or not? Haven't heard anything from you.

oleblu72
October 09, 2014, 13:45
This is Bull crap you already paid your money for their services and since they haven't provided that service to you yet they still owe you it was none of your doing that got things fouled up.

Mark

raexcct2
October 09, 2014, 15:27
This is Bull crap you already paid your money for their services and since they haven't provided that service to you yet they still owe you it was none of your doing that got things fouled up.

Mark

Mark,

That's the rationale I thought would work. UPS' s rationale is that they successfully shipped it to the dealer but since the dealer didn't accept delivery at his business but changed it for pickup at the shipping center, where it was lost, they fulfilled their shipping obligation. Needless to say, I will avoid UPS as much as possible even if I have to pay more with FedEx.

raexcct2
October 13, 2014, 13:25
Well the pistol finally arrived in California and was delivered successfully. The buyer and I shared the cost of the second shipment with his payment coming via Paypal.

Well, it appears he did a chargeback as all traces of his payment have disappeared from my Paypal account so I got stuck with all the shipping charges for the second shipment.

What an asshole. So in hindsight and as a warning to all FAL FILES members, if you get a request from a Benjamin Wu of San Francisco, California to buy your weapon, just ignore him as it will lead to nothing but frustration.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Fiorina
October 13, 2014, 17:34
Well the pistol finally arrived in California and was delivered successfully. The buyer and I shared the cost of the second shipment with his payment coming via Paypal.

Well, it appears he did a chargeback as all traces of his payment have disappeared from my Paypal account so I got stuck with all the shipping charges for the second shipment.

What an asshole. So in hindsight and as a warning to all FAL FILES members, if you get a request from a Benjamin Wu of San Francisco, California to buy your weapon, just ignore him as it will lead to nothing but frustration.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

He pulled his money back after you agreed to split the charges? What a jackass!! Man I feel for you, this whole deal was a big pain in the ass for you

raexcct2
October 13, 2014, 19:10
He pulled his money back after you agreed to split the charges? What a jackass!! Man I feel for you, this whole deal was a big pain in the ass for you

Yes, it was definitely a learning experience. Previously the only Californians that I've sold firearms and gun parts were to FAL Files members in good standing and I never had any issues like this. I really feel for the good Californian gun owners as actions like this just add to the feeling to not sell anything to Californian gun owners.

canman
October 14, 2014, 10:17
I'm in California, I've bought and sold a lot of stuff here (and GB, and CalGuns, and Beretta Forum, and....other sites too). I only got burned once....and it was a FalFiler by the name of Scott Dapson, many years ago. He was from New York. Doesn't mean I don't do business with New Yorkers any longer. (I still don't like that dude). Doesn't mean I don't do business with FalFilers any more.

I've also, like others mentioned, shipped a lot of stuff with UPS and never had a serious problem with them. I've had minor problems with all shipping agencies, and all were usually fairly easily resolved.

As far as going to ATF vs. CA DOJ to resolve a firearms issue. I've dealt with both several times and CA DOJ is better to work with....in my experience.

Sounds like part of the problem here was a somewhat shady buyer (?) and an FFL on his end who is, at the minimum, disorganized.

I've done business with Hector (great transaction) and many other FalFilers. I know it's a bit of a pain in the a$$ to deal with CA buyers. But if the buyer and his/her FFL here in CA have their Sh!t together and are organized then it's really not a big deal. I hope we all continue to work with each other especially as various legislators in various states continue to try infringe on our rights.

Canman

oleblu72
October 14, 2014, 12:27
If I'm reading everything right the pistol was finally delivered and you were paid for your Browning and you got burnt for the cost of final shipping. This idiot douche bag asswagon needs his ars kicked for what he pulled on you it was his FFL's fault that things went the way they did and Wu should have paid for all of the 2nd shipping cost .But after the dust settles and everything if I would have been caught up in this deal I would consider myself fortunate the way things finally turned out. Imagine how things would have been if your Browning was actually lost by the UPS clowns this would have been a long drawn out affair for you fighting UPS and the state of California. At least this would be the way I would look at it to keep from going ballistic on the whole deal.

Mark

raexcct2
October 14, 2014, 14:26
Mark,

I'm just going to let karma do it's thing. Canman was one of the California FAL Files members that I was referring to. Every transaction went smoothly.

I am just glad the pistol finally made it and was delivered. The last thing I wanted or needed was more drama with UPS.

This transaction sure taught me a lesson about chargebacks on Paypal. Never had that happen before. I was given no notice, no explanation, nothing. The whole shipping charge transaction just disappeared. Even doing a search of the transaction number and sender's email yielded nothing.

Looking back at my first post, I guess I was really angry when I posted. I think I am going to start using W.E.G.'s rules for shipping firearms. It would have saved me a lot of aggravation. I'll continue to ship to Californians that I know and to others that accept the shipping rules that W.E.G. posted elsewhere on the FAL Files. I just have to find those rules now.:)

oleblu72
October 14, 2014, 16:59
It would be a shame to lose any firearm like this let alone your tricked out Browning . I think what it boils down to is it doesn't matter where your at or what forum your on sooner or later a weasel will surface and burn someone , must be one of Murphy's laws or something like that. While your transaction left a lot to be desired considering what could have happened it worked out ok I'm just glad you didn't lose your firearm.

Mark

JImbel
October 15, 2014, 09:28
Had a similar situation. Seller shipped USPS but my FFL doesn't open up until after the post office closes. So USPO leaves him a note to come pick up a package.
My FFL goes down to the post office next day to pick up the package. They tell him they can't find it, it must be lost.
As soon as he mentions it's a firearm they panic and start looking around and low and behold they find it.

W.E.G.
October 15, 2014, 14:00
shipping rules that W.E.G. posted elsewhere on the FAL Files. I just have to find those rules now.:)

My standard spiel:

*

I am W.E.G. on the FAL Files, AR15.com, THR and a bunch of other boards.

Unless you get my permission otherwise,…
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/gunbroker/USPOMOTxt_zpsa5d67bf5.jpg

Condition:
See photos below.

Return Policy:
This rifle is sold AS-IS
No warranty. No returns. No Refunds.

Inspection Period:
No “inspection period” is offered.
I back the authenticity and correct description of this rifle with my reputation.
That’s the only guarantee provided. If you’re not sure you want this item, don’t buy it!
I’m unwilling to get into any through-the mail, buyers-remorse exchanges.

Any Questions?:
If you have specific questions about this rifle, I’m happy to respond by email or telephone
High resolution photos available by email

Shipping Rules (READ THIS!!!):
1. Shipment only to a licensed Federal Firearms License address.
2. Buyer must include with payment all information needed to identify buyer's FFL.
3. FFL must be verifiable online via the ATF web site at
https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/
4. Buyer must provide me with the full name of the FFL, the FFL number, and a contact TELEPHONE NUMBER where the FFL actually answers his phone.
5. The FFL must be willing to talk to me on the telephone to discuss all pertinent aspects of this transaction.
6. The FFL must verbally verify to me that he is willing to receive this item for you.
7. The FFL must verify that he will accept shipment from
a private citizen (a "non-licensee" in ATF-speak).
8. If the FFL cannot be reached by telephone, or will not verify his willingness to
receive the item for you, the deal is off, and I will return your payment to you.
9. *No shipment to California unless your FFL can express to me on the telephone
that he comprehends that this rifle will be shipped with the top half and
bottom half separated, and that the magazine will be shipped in fully
disassembled condition. If your California FFL seems even the slightest
bit uncertain about this, no shipment to California.
10. *No shipment anywhere unless your FFL can express to me on the telephone
that he comprehends that the selector on this rifle is unmodified, and that this
rifle is NOT a machine gun. If your FFL seems even the slightest
bit uncertain about this, the rifle will not ship.
If your FFL does not understand FAL rifles, it is YOUR DUTY to educate him, not mine.
I will not have this rifle tied-up somewhere because your FFL can’t
tell the difference between a semi-automatic gun and a machine gun.

Method of Shipping:
This rifle will be shipped by United States Postal Service Priority Mail.
The rifle will be shipped in a new rifle box from Fulton Armory.
This is the same box Fulton Armory uses to ship their finest rifles.
This is an excellent box, which you may use for storage, or for shipping
any long gun which you want to protect with certainty.
Fulton Armory charges me $30 for this box.
These boxes are truly the best boxes money can buy, and that
also comply with USPS and UPS regulations requiring that all articles
be shipped in a CARDBOARD box.
I charge the buyer no extra fee for this added value.
No face-to-face delivery.
I do not operate a storefront.
I cannot meet you or your personal courier.

Payment Method:
Unless seller specifically authorizes otherwise, payment must be made by U.S. Postal Service money order.
No weird off-brand money orders!!!
No credit cards. No checks. No trades.
Buyer must submit payment by mail.
No in-person delivery of payment or product.
I do not operate a storefront.
I cannot meet you or your personal courier.

Shipping and Insurance Fees:
Buyer in continental 48 states pays a flat $35 shipping/insurance fee.
Alaska and Hawaii pay actual Priority Mail shipping.
No shipments to US island territories (Puerto Rico, Guam, etc.)
Rifle will be insured for the auction value amount.
The rifle will be insured for the final value of the auction.
No extra charge is assessed to the buyer for insurance.

Responsibility for Losses During Shipping:
Buyer accepts responsibility for any loss, damage, or seizure, commencing at the
time seller places the package in custody of the U.S. Postal service.
Seller will cooperate in every reasonable manner in the event of any incident
that may require submission of an insurance claim associated with shipping.

International Sales:
None. Don’t ask.
Sales to the United States ONLY.

Deadlines:
Winning Buyer must contact Seller within 3 days of the end of the auction.
My contact information on this site is correct and reliable.
Winner of auction may not receive a separate bill or personal notification from me.
The standard means of notification though this site is all that is promised.
Payment must be actually received by Seller within 10 calendar days of the close of the auction.
Seller will ship the auction item no later than 5 calendar days after receipt of buyer’s payment.

raexcct2
October 15, 2014, 19:05
W.E.G.,

Thanks, this is what I was looking for. You are definitely giving the buyer a deal with the flat $35 shipping plus providing the Fulton Armory box.

ALL FAL
October 15, 2014, 20:51
Glad you got it straightened out Hector.

raexcct2
October 15, 2014, 22:14
Glad also. Had my blood pressure, blood sugar (I'm diabetic) increased for the time frame this drama was going on. Every thing is back to normal now. I really need to find another hobby that isn't so expensive.

I'll be so glad when my daughter finishes school next year so I don't have to sell anymore guns and parts to finance her education.

hueyville
October 18, 2014, 22:24
Here is the kicker that they play when contents of your package are damaged.

The above box strengths are only guidelines to help assure the containment and protection of products transported through single-package distribution environments. They are not to be considered packaging specifications, and all packaged products should be tested in accordance with the International Safe Transit (ISTA) Test Procedure 3A to ensure the most appropriate level of product protection is achieved.

I sent 12 packages all double boxed with expanding foam filling the void between the inner and outer box. I tested before packing this way and taking to UPS. I put similar item into inner box with bubble wrap and styrofoam peanuts. Sprayed foam in bottom of outer box, set inner box onto foam and then finished filling inner with foam all four sides about four incbes thick. We threw box across shop, jumped on it, dropped a 4 foot piece of I-Beam so sharp corner hit box and did not damage.

Took to UPS and insured for full value. When client sent pictures of mangled boxes and four broken units UPS asked to see our ISTA 3A test certification lab reports. I said never heard of them. They never paid. If each different method you use is not sent to authorized ISTA labaratory for certification and items are damaged they will not pay. I called three approved independent labs and testing of any package was over a grand 10 years ago. Items sending were too large for fedex. We made four more and took to UPS retail store and paid the store to package and ship with insurance. Two of four arrived broken and I whipped out my papedwork where paid UPS to package. Again they put blame on me for not having packave ISTA certified though UPS did the work.

It was explained to me by my local driver later. UPS has 70 pound weight limit and conveyors. All items must be packed in way that it can take five foot fall off conveyor then 70 pound box roll off behind it and fall 5 feet onto box. Then expect said to happen at every terminal. I purchased a 25,000 dollar printer that shipped UPS weighing 60 pounds. I heard back up alarm and opened door just in time to watch driver push printer off tail of truck and freefall to parking lot. It was unhurt when removed from box but I was pissed. Shipper said due to expense and number of units shipped they had ISTA certification on packaging. Said they had to redesign packaging twice as took three total times for lab to certify and had over 3,000 in engineering package and 5,000 dollars in cedtification. Who can do that with every item shipped UPS? We now strap most to pallet, build wood box around and ship liftgate trucking service.

mutter
October 18, 2014, 23:15
I shipped a rifle to a gent and had the same type of problem. When the rifle was return shipped I called the buyer and canceled the sale. I returned his funds minus the shipping charges. He was pissed but I don't care.

The buyer provided you with his FFL's information and you shipped it to him. The mistake was on his end not yours. I would never have sent it to him a second time unless you absolutely needed the money.

I would recommend never sending more than once. How pissed would you be if the same crap happened a second time?

Just my .02
Mutter

raexcct2
October 20, 2014, 01:38
My mistake the second time was taking the Paypal payment. I wonder if I should out both him and his dealer on Calguns.net.

oleblu72
October 20, 2014, 11:35
My mistake the second time was taking the Paypal payment. I wonder if I should out both him and his dealer on Calguns.net.

Well both the buyer and his FFL are knuckleheads ( to be a little nice with the name calling ) of the first degree to do what they did so yeah I think you ought to play with them for awhile you earned the right to do so.

Mark