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mountainman
December 11, 2013, 19:32
some one please fill me in on what is referred to as setback when regarding a revolver and how that means a necked rifle cartridge can't be used in a revolver?

W.E.G.
December 11, 2013, 19:54
Revolvers have ridiculous amounts of headspace.

Revolvers allow the case to flow back against the recoil shield and tie the gun up like a sumbitch.

Why would you even remotely consider wanting one in 5.56x45 caliber?

tdb59
December 11, 2013, 20:08
The Smith & Wesson Model 53 in .22 Remington Jet had plenty of issues for this very reason- cartridge setback. Unless the chambers were completely dry, the case would expand enough on the long taper of the case and tie up the cylinder, even though it headspaced on the cartridge rim.

FUUN063
December 11, 2013, 20:55
My S&W 53 works fine as long as the cylinders are clean. But, they all need to be clean to function well, some just more clean than others. The setback occurs when the unfired cartridge is allowed to move somewhat just before being fired. This makes for a very long headspace and cartridges other than straight walled ones will show signs of this quickly unless there are provisions to keep the cartridge exactly where it belongs.

Leland
:fal:

shortround
December 11, 2013, 21:45
I have a 357/44 Bain and Davis on a Blackhawk frame. It's a 44 magnum necked down to .357 caliber. With average loads it will do 1800 fps with a 110 gr. bullet. But, when you fire it, the pressure forces the case head backwards and the shoulder forwards and will tie the gun up with hotter loads. That would be OK in a single shot or an autoloader, but in a revolver, the lack of clearance, so to speak, causes the case to drag on the recoil plate in the best case and to stop rotation completely in the worst. Good thing that gun has a cylinder pin that can be pulled.

I would have to believe that the .223/5.56 would be worse.

Then to top it off, you would have a barrel cylinder gap to contend with and the flame cutting to the top strap and forcing cone that would go with a higher pressure rifle round, not to mention the loss of velocity that goes with it. What would the forcing cone itself do to your accuracy?

Retired Bum
December 12, 2013, 16:53
I have a first year production (1961) S&W Model 53. Before I shoot it I swab out the chambers with rubbing alcohol. Ditto the recoil shield. I make sure that my handloaded cartridges are clean and dry. To date I have never had a problem with cylinder lockup due to the case being set back against the recoil shield. All it takes is attention to all of the little details IMHO.

I also have revolvers chambered for the old Winchester bottle necked rounds. The 32-20, .38-40, and the .44-40. These rounds with standard pressure handloads work just fine in my revolvers. Once I loaded up some .32-20's using a stiff load of H110 and the Hornady 85 grain XTP for a chronographing session. I was getting an average velocity of just over 1500 fps in the 6.5 inch Ruger "Buckeye Special" NM Blackhawk. And with dry chambers and cartridges I had no ejection problems.

So the statement that bottle neck cartridges won't work in revolvers isn't completely accurate IMHO. Some will and some won't. When both Ruger and Colt tried to produce a revolver chambered for the rip snorting .256 Win Mag back in the early 1960's, they called it undoable and for good reason.

And so it goes.


The Retired One

xcpd69
February 12, 2014, 19:50
I have a first year production (1961) S&W Model 53. Before I shoot it I swab out the chambers with rubbing alcohol. Ditto the recoil shield. I make sure that my handloaded cartridges are clean and dry. To date I have never had a problem with cylinder lockup due to the case being set back against the recoil shield. All it takes is attention to all of the little details IMHO.

I also have revolvers chambered for the old Winchester bottle necked rounds. The 32-20, .38-40, and the .44-40. These rounds with standard pressure handloads work just fine in my revolvers. Once I loaded up some .32-20's using a stiff load of H110 and the Hornady 85 grain XTP for a chronographing session. I was getting an average velocity of just over 1500 fps in the 6.5 inch Ruger "Buckeye Special" NM Blackhawk. And with dry chambers and cartridges I had no ejection problems.

So the statement that bottle neck cartridges won't work in revolvers isn't completely accurate IMHO. Some will and some won't. When both Ruger and Colt tried to produce a revolver chambered for the rip snorting .256 Win Mag back in the early 1960's, they called it undoable and for good reason.

And so it goes.


The Retired One



There was at least one prototype Python chambered for the 256 Winchester. Due to the above cited problems, they never went into production.

Ruger DID build a production 256 Winchester called The Hawkeye. Built on a single action frame, it had a single shot breechblock instead of a cylinder. I believe lack of sales killed it. Which of course made it instantly a "collector's item," like many other discontinued items whose demand only appeared after production ceased. :rolleyes:

Retired Bum
February 12, 2014, 20:44
As I understand it, Colt did produce 20 Pythons chambered for the .256 Win Mag round. They were gifted to the top Colt executive's and never expected to be fired. I wonder how many of these if any ever were sold to private collectors?

I remember the Ruger Hawkeye single shot .256 pistol. I first saw one in 1964 at the Frankfurt Rod & Gun Club in Germany. It was built on the Super Blackhawk frame and had I believe a 9.5 inch barrel. I should have bought one along with a supply of ammo and put them away. But I was just 18 years old and investing in firearms on a PFC's pay was the last thing on my mind.

And so it goes.


The Retired One

moonbat60
February 25, 2014, 15:44
If you still want to try rifle cartridges in a pistol / handgun, buy a Thompson Center Contender.

Retired Bum
February 25, 2014, 19:12
Back in the 1980's I owned two of the Contender frames and an assortment of barrels in several calibers. One was a Super 14 barrel chambered for the .30 Herret wildcat cartridge. So I bought all the necessary forming and trim dies and a set of full length reloading dies along with a shell holder for the .30-30 case. Bought 120 new Winchester cases and one by one I turned them into .30 Herret cases. Loaded them up with H110 and some cheap .30 Carbine bullets and then shot them off in order to fire form the case to its final shape.

A whole lot of effort involved but it was educational because I had never played around with a wildcat cartridge. Loaded up with a 125 grain JSP I chronographed my handloads at 2245 fps in that 14 inch barrel. The muzzle blast and flash were spectacular to say the least. Then one day a pal of mine shot the beast and decided he wanted one too. I asked him if he was serious and he said yes. Such a deal I have for you.....

So I sold him everything I had for the Herret and was glad to see it go. I don't know if there is any interest in the .30 Herret these days. One can buy an Encore chambered for the 7.62x39 and get the same level of performance without the hassles of reforming cases. The 7.62x39 and the .30 Herret are virtually ballistic twins in the same barrel lengths.

And so it goes.


The No More Wildcats For Me Retired One

Timber Wolf
February 26, 2014, 08:43
I just happen to have the ne plus ultra .256 firearm, a Marlin Model 62. The thing is just downright cool and lots of fun although I am sure the lever gun haters would sneer at it. It has an old “period correct” Weaver 4X on it and zips the little 60 grain pills out pretty good. Finding ammo can be a problem and quite pricey when you do. I think I have 100 custom reformed rounds stashed. As for a .223 handgun, for some reason I have a 10” .223 barrel for a Contender. Bought long ago with a ridiculously tight chamber, it would not close at all on some ammo and barely on others. I finally “fixed” it with a few turns of a .223 chamber finishing reamer. I have not shot it in years and need to get it out to play with. Like RB I too have 32-20s, 38-40s, and 44-40 handguns and some rifles. So many projects, so little time.:facepalm: