PDA

View Full Version : Gun trust questions


Old Sarge
October 04, 2013, 09:50
Hi All
All I know about them is a lot of guys getting CIII stuff seem to set them up. What is the advantage to it? Dose it help with your regular stuff also?

I need to get schooled up on this, is there a sight that gives a good break down on it?

Thanks
Old Sarge

Timber Wolf
October 04, 2013, 10:50
I have the same question. I don't have any "controlled" stuff (yet) but was wondering if there is some advantage to having one to "hold" guns for an underage (minor) heir that can't own them yet?

m60shooter
October 04, 2013, 16:12
stop !!! the nfa trust's are currently in the process of being overhauled or done away with, not sure which. better do some homework before you jump into a nfa trust.

L Haney
October 04, 2013, 16:49
stop !!! the nfa trust's are currently in the process of being overhauled or done away with, not sure which. better do some homework before you jump into a nfa trust.

Seems to be on the back burner currently. Trusts (Legal Fictions, same as Corporations) really need to be written by a lawyer with experience in this area. I would not advise anyone to accept on blind faith a 'boilerplate' Trust document offered by some NFA dealers.

And damn sure don't include your cousin who has a documented history of mental problems and a felony arrest record in the Trust. Set the members up with the thought they need to be people who COULD pass the requirements for NFA weapon ownership.

And make sure there is language in the document that specifies transfer of control of the Trust. People do die. So far, the rate has been 100% given a long enough time frame. The Trust may outlive them all.

2barearms
October 04, 2013, 19:51
I have 2 Items on my Trust. I'm going to send off at least one more before the
end of the year. Bill will be along to tell you how bad they are and how He could
help you do it for a hunderd dollas. All that I've read so far indicates that the
Trust will still exist and they may make some changes to the Beneficiaries attached to it. Remember the 'Responsible' person is the one that did the
4473 that accepted the item. It could come down to having a NICS check on them. Thee CLEO signoff is the hingepin though, in Counties like Harris in Texas
there isn't a way to get around the Libtard Mexican Sheriff except via Corp or
Trust. I would still have a known reputable Lawyer help you fill out the paperwork.

It's unlikely they will make retroactive changes to existing Trusts or Corps
but be ready for anything from these Marxist wannabe's.

DABTL
October 05, 2013, 07:09
I have never charged anyone anything to aid them in acquiring legally a Class III weapon, for starters. So enough of 2bare trolling.

Here is my take on this mess.

First I have had many calls from lawyers who were 'doing' NFA 'trusts' based on Pro-Docs forms (which is a fill in the blank program). Charging $400 or so each, the 'trusts' were computer printed in a matter of minutes. They have no idea what is coming, how to get around the problems and are worried they will be sued by their clients.

Second, I have no idea what rules will be adopted, other than it will require more scrutiny of the participants if the 'trusts' continue. Whether or not more rules will be adopted regulating existing 'trusts' will be adopted is anyone's guess. My guess is yes.

Third, any lawyer telling you to hurry up and do something is just doing a sales pitch.

Fourth, use caution and be patient.

Finally, if you do need to get a Sheriff's or Judge's signature on Class III paperwork, do not call them a Libtard Mexican.

dtom29
October 05, 2013, 15:07
The proposed rule changes do not include doing away with the trust/corp portion of the 1934 rules. What is being proposed is the requirement to have a CLEO signoff for all responsible parties with fingerprints and photos. This would remove any advantage that forming a Trust had in bypassing a CLEO that would not sign, or making it convenient to do your forms without having to put up with long waits for the sheriff to get around to signing. Forming a Trust is easy...Quicken works just fine (I have 12 transfers with no problem), but if you feel better having a Lawyer do it then go for it. You will still be able to use any trust when or if there is any change. Remember the Trust/Corp portion is law...only a change in the law through congress can do away with it. Rules changes can't do that. The Trust will still have the advantage of allowing other trustees access to the items which an individual transfer will not.
Edit to add...There is no advantage of a Trust for normal title 1 firearms. These should not be added to a Trust that includes your NFA items.
Edit2...Silencertalk, nfatalk will have a lot more info.

dtom29
October 05, 2013, 15:15
I have 2 Items on my Trust. I'm going to send off at least one more before the
end of the year. Bill will be along to tell you how bad they are and how He could
help you do it for a hunderd dollas. All that I've read so far indicates that the
Trust will still exist and they may make some changes to the Beneficiaries attached to it. Remember the 'Responsible' person is the one that did the
4473 that accepted the item. It could come down to having a NICS check on them. There is a NICS done on the "responsible parties" already. Thee CLEO signoff is the hingepin though, in Counties like Harris in Texas
there isn't a way to get around the Libtard Mexican Sheriff except via Corp or
Trust. I would still have a known reputable Lawyer help you fill out the paperwork.

It's unlikely they will make retroactive changes to existing Trusts or Corps
but be ready for anything from these Marxist wannabe's.

mine in red.

keiser
October 07, 2013, 14:58
Here is my take on getting a gun trust. If your local law enforcment officer would not sign off, that was the reason most people did the trust which may be a moot point in the future.

For me, I wanted to allow my wife and kids to be able to handle these items and to be able to have these items when they want to borrow them. If you have these items in your name only, then no one else is allowed to have them in their possession. There is even some debate on handing them to someone at the range to try. My lawyer said a strict interpretation of the law would forbid such, however, he was not aware of anyone who had been charged with this.

If you died or were incapacitated, no one can get to these items to sell or dispose of them if they are in your name only. Maybe BATF will ignore this or maybe they will prosecute. You can't trust them because they sort of make up the rules as they go.

m60shooter
October 07, 2013, 19:30
i'm pretty sure that if you have a will and will your nfa weapons to family members upon your death, that can be done tax free via atf form 5. that is what i have done since i dont have a trust. i think it doesn't even have to be a family member that you leave them to via form 5.

2barearms
October 09, 2013, 15:39
mine in red.

Only on the one picking it up from the FFL.

dtom29
October 17, 2013, 20:56
nope, batf does one on all trustees when processing the form.

2barearms
October 17, 2013, 21:34
nope, batf does one on all trustees when processing the form.

It's funny you mention this, they say that they don't do this and this is what
the hubbub is all about. So they either 1. do a background on the Beneficiaries
or 2. they don't. So you're saying they're lying?

eodinert
October 23, 2013, 04:36
So you're saying if I put a 'Joe Smith' on a trust, they're going to do a background check with only a name?

Warbirds Custom Guns
October 23, 2013, 22:11
nope, batf does one on all trustees when processing the form.

Not true at all.
Trustees are listed with "name & address" only.
Never seen any social security numbers given on any trusts I've seen.
ATF needs the social security number to run a back ground check.



.

D P Six
October 23, 2013, 22:27
The machine gun business was largely killed because of 1986. If the 'Trust' option is made moot, the booming suppressor business will probably follow suit.

Lee Carpentieri
October 24, 2013, 19:51
BATFE doesn't do background checks, The FBI does them for BATFE. It's most likely why trusts and Corporate form 4transfers in the future will be changed to reflect upgraded policy about how or who is purchassing the weapons or devices. This all stems from Vic's Gun Corp from 3 years ago. Now the whole NFA System is going to come under Federal review and cahnges are coming from what I've heard from BATFE and the FBI and it's about time. Now with Terrorist marrying american women and putting the FFL/SOT3 in the wifes name or convicted felon's doing the same as in Vic's Gun Corp did their needs to be changes made before Congess and the Senate decide to screw it up for us all.

dtom29
October 25, 2013, 13:13
Isn't it funny how the NICS is able to run a check on me every time I buy a gun and I have never given my SSI# on the form....hmmmm.
So, The system in place now was able to determine a problem with the Vic's Gun Corp.....so the system needs changed. Yep, that there is Logic.
oh, Beneficiaries are not checked now and won't be in the proposed changes, only "responsible parties" i.e. Trustees. These are already run through NICS. They want photos, fingerprints, and a CLEO signoff... because the Administration has no idea how it works, has no idea that the system works just fine as is, and wants to say they are closeing a "loophole" that doesn't exist. Obviously some on here have fallen for the "loophole" BS. Naming one or maybe two incidents doesn't make a "loophole". BATFE was in the process of eleminating the CLEO signoff for all transfers when the Administration decided to jump in. Trusts make the process simple, No kissing the ass of the CLEO in your area, no waiting till they are dam good and ready to sign your paperwork (if they will sign), no having them copy and retain your private tax records. And Yeah...I'll bet there is a large number of terrorist's LOL, sorry, I can't even write this without laughing, waiting 6 months to a year to get a Full auto, SBS/SBR, or silencer on a Form4/form1. WOW, talk about chugging the koolaid.

dtom29
October 25, 2013, 13:19
The machine gun business was largely killed because of 1986. If the 'Trust' option is made moot, the booming suppressor business will probably follow suit.

Why? The Machine Gun Business was "killed" (as you put it) by the limiting of the number of transferables on the market. Making trustees get fingerprinted and photographed and having a CLEO signoff isn't going to limit the number of silencers on the market. While the fingerprints and photos will be an inconvience, only the CLEO signoff will cause any real problem and only where they won't sign.

keiser
October 25, 2013, 14:45
And why would you need to send in photos and fingerprints every time? Once should be enough. Sending them in shouldn't even need to be part of the Form 4 process at all. You should be able to send them and place them on file. Hell, most with a concealed weapons permit already have their prints on file. Last I checked, prints don't change with time so what is the point? Probably just to make life difficult as that seems to be what atf does best.

D P Six
October 25, 2013, 23:13
Why? The Machine Gun Business was "killed" (as you put it) by the limiting of the number of transferables on the market. Making trustees get fingerprinted and photographed and having a CLEO signoff isn't going to limit the number of silencers on the market. While the fingerprints and photos will be an inconvience, only the CLEO signoff will cause any real problem and only where they won't sign.

The 'freeze' in 1986 on the number of registered MG's means a full auto FNFAL costs $15,000 instead of the $500 for a parts kit. I would say price has put a damper on MG sales. If you live in a jurisdiction where the LEO or other authorized sign-off person will not sign and the 'trust loophole' is not available, you won't be buying a suppressor (or MG). Not having customers because they can't or don't want to be bothered jumping over hoops does not make for a good business climate.

keiser
October 27, 2013, 17:34
The point of this whole change and most of their changes is to take weapons out of Americans hands. Typically all it does is cause mass buying. Liberals get tired of conservatives calling them dumb but if the shoe fits, what can I say.

tdb59
October 27, 2013, 17:41
....... Now with Terrorist marrying american women and putting the FFL/SOT3 in the wifes name...

So terrorists set up a paper trail ?

:confused:

riverratmike
November 07, 2013, 08:38
Most of the things said about NFA trusts on this thread are pretty much true. I got one myself because I am going through the paperwork jungle to get a suppressor. But, as you can see from all the posts, you are better off getting a lawyer to sort out your exact needs. Find one that writes them a lot.

L Haney
November 07, 2013, 08:56
And why would you need to send in photos and fingerprints every time? Once should be enough.

This has puzzled me too. For the life of me I cannot see the point.

If you are already in the NFA registry it really seems like things could be fast tracked.

Actually the whole thing seems kind of screwy to me. They are insisting you jump through all these hoops to be ALLOWED to pay a tax. If you had a criminal record and shouldn't be sold the weapon that will show on the standard NCIC check done for any weapon.

If you wanted to apply sanity to this, let the dealer forward a copy of your 4473 with the weapon identified as an NFA item and the completed NCIC, a check for $200, and be done with it.

End result is exactly the same.

riffraff2
November 07, 2013, 18:05
Here is my take on getting a gun trust. If your local law enforcment officer would not sign off, that was the reason most people did the trust which may be a moot point in the future.

For me, I wanted to allow my wife and kids to be able to handle these items and to be able to have these items when they want to borrow them. If you have these items in your name only, then no one else is allowed to have them in their possession. There is even some debate on handing them to someone at the range to try. My lawyer said a strict interpretation of the law would forbid such, however, he was not aware of anyone who had been charged with this.

If you died or were incapacitated, no one can get to these items to sell or dispose of them if they are in your name only. Maybe BATF will ignore this or maybe they will prosecute. You can't trust them because they sort of make up the rules as they go.



What you posted throws a big monkey wrench in to activities like Knob Creek. The Feds could really screw with people if they have a mind(or directive to). Things ain't looking to good. The Feds just keep chiping away at our freedoms a bit at a time, little by little. I am not optimistic about Americas future.

I wish I weren't so negative about stuff but I see things as I see things and I don't see liberty and freedom down the road. I think what I need is a *happy pill*. I just wish I could be happy ad optimistic all the time. Groan.

G3isMe
November 07, 2013, 21:22
Seems to be on the back burner currently. .......

The proposed rule is posted in the Federal Register and is open for public comment until December 9, 2013. Probably a done deal unless they actually consider the thousands of comments, possible but doubtful. ....:(...


http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=ATF-2013-0001-0001

.

Jarhead504
November 07, 2013, 22:20
Bro. Old Sarge: A great site for NFA discussion is subguns.com. Go to the "message boards" then go to the NFA Discussion board. There is lots of genuine information on all the boards there but it is the netweb. Overall the posts are very good to excellent.

I go to the "Moderated Discussion" daily. It is incredible what you can learn from the brother and sister BCR's (Bowers Cult Regulars). I'm Jarhead over there.
I highly recommend it.

Jarhead(504) for FALFILES

DABTL
November 15, 2013, 08:40
I recently, in September, received a phone call from a lawyer concerning NFA trusts. He had done many at $450 each. We talked, I told him of my thoughts that they were finished. We discussed how to get signatures from the local Sheriff, local cops and Judges.

On Tuesday I met him face to face in court. We discussed the cops in various towns willing to sign off for residents of their town and the problem with getting he local Judges to sign off. The Sheriff will not sign off on Class III for anyone. He was complaining that it had really hurt his business.

Then he told me he had signed a petition calling for the impeachment and removal from office of our Sheriff. There is no such procedure in Texas at all. I told him that did not exist in Texas. He replied, 'Well, they told me we could so I signed.'

Now this young lawyer had been making a living with his word processor turning out 'NFA Trusts' and peddling them to gun buyers. He had no expertise in anything about law, knows nothing about trust law in fact and still conned many people into believing he was a firearms law guru.

Frankly, I do not believe there is such a thing as an expert lawyer drawing up these trusts. Proceed if you want, but do not be surprised by the poor outcome.

jackj
November 20, 2013, 07:36
I have a corporation that I transferred my Class 3 items too. It did not require listing any information about the officers of the corporation who were myself, my wife and my daughter. To add additional officers cost $100 to modify the corporation through Legal Zoom and doesn't require submission of additional forms and information to the BATF.

The original Corporation was set up by a Lawyer group that specialized in Corporations. All officers have equal legal access to use of the Class 3 items. It didn't require a LEO sign off / fingerprints / or photos in addition to not requiring listing the names of the current officers.

In Georgia, the annual corporation fee is $50. Other than that, the officers have to hold an annual meeting and take minutes that are kept in the book that comes with the corporation.

2barearms
November 27, 2013, 12:23
I recently, in September, received a phone call from a lawyer concerning NFA trusts. He had done many at $450 each. We talked, I told him of my thoughts that they were finished. We discussed how to get signatures from the local Sheriff, local cops and Judges.

On Tuesday I met him face to face in court. We discussed the cops in various towns willing to sign off for residents of their town and the problem with getting he local Judges to sign off. The Sheriff will not sign off on Class III for anyone. He was complaining that it had really hurt his business.

Then he told me he had signed a petition calling for the impeachment and removal from office of our Sheriff. There is no such procedure in Texas at all. I told him that did not exist in Texas. He replied, 'Well, they told me we could so I signed.'

Now this young lawyer had been making a living with his word processor turning out 'NFA Trusts' and peddling them to gun buyers. He had no expertise in anything about law, knows nothing about trust law in fact and still conned many people into believing he was a firearms law guru.

Frankly, I do not believe there is such a thing as an expert lawyer drawing up these trusts. Proceed if you want, but do not be surprised by the poor outcome.

You are agreeing with me, you realize that, right. No CLEO signoff, no NFA.
Makes no difference at this point if they change the regulation. The localities
where the local Chief, Sheriff etal refuse you are screwed.