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gunsmoke
August 29, 2013, 13:01
Obama seeks to end NFA trusts by executive order - urge your Congressman to respond by defunding ATF!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/29/obama-announces-new-gun-control-measures-targets-military-surplus-imports/

Also stos importation of Garands, Carbines!

:redface:

Stranger
August 29, 2013, 13:57
Saw that. What absolute bullshit.

Super Dakę
August 29, 2013, 15:34
Ahhh, the genius of ending crime by attacking law abiding citizens. 'Cus legal machine guns/owners are clearly the problem with this country. Lets do it for the children.

"More people have been killed by a Kennedy behind the wheel of a car than all my machine guns combined"

Tuhlmann
August 30, 2013, 11:27
I have a Form 4 pending through a trust. I wonder how screwed I am gonna be with regards to my wait now.

Is this what liberty is supposed to feel like?

shortround
August 30, 2013, 14:15
I've had a suppressor pending since March. I was hoping to get in the next couple of months. My question is going to be how retroactive this is. Are all the items on the trust going to have to be retroactively covered with photos, fingerprint cards and CLEO sign off? The CLEO signature was why I went the trust route.

m60shooter
August 30, 2013, 15:33
i'm waiting for the part where they raise the transfer tax to $500 or $1000 per gun . anything to make it more difficult for law abiding gun owners.

TXscout
August 31, 2013, 09:50
It wasn't just Obama--it was, apparently, "some of our own"...


http://www.examiner.com/article/nfa-firearms-collectors-group-initiated-atf-gun-trust-rule-change

357ross
August 31, 2013, 13:35
Obama seeks to end NFA trusts by executive order - urge your Congressman to respond by defunding ATF!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/29/obama-announces-new-gun-control-measures-targets-military-surplus-imports/

Also stos importation of Garands, Carbines!

:redface:

Please tell me what causes you to believe congress can be moved to do any such thing. They won't even discuss de-funding Obummercare which is incredibly destructive to every segment of American life.

DABTL
September 01, 2013, 08:31
Obama seeks to end NFA trusts by executive order - urge your Congressman to respond by defunding ATF!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/29/obama-announces-new-gun-control-measures-targets-military-surplus-imports/

Also stos importation of Garands, Carbines!

:redface:

CMP can still import Garands, if there are any left, from foreign governments or sources.

There are no more carbines to import. They were all pickled for the last years of WWII and shipped to Asian countries from 1948 through about 1955. They were too damaged to bother with, according to Orest Michaels about 12 years ago. What we have is all we will have.

I pointed out some time back that I felt the NFA trusts were going to be ended, as they were structured, and got criticized for pointing out why.

Now, the NFA trusts must have finger prints and the signature requirement from each person associated with the trust, or becomes associated with the trust in the future.

So far as I know, no one here has mentioned that more than the local Chief of Police or Sheriff can sign off on a Class III. Any Judge having the jurisdiction to send anyone to prison for more than a year can sign off on the Class III forms. As I am at the courthouse all the time that has always been easier for me.

D P Six
September 01, 2013, 10:13
The 'signature' for NFA items. is the issue. In many jurisdictions the LEO will not sign off for anyone for any reason and most people do not have a Thursday poker night with a State's Attorney or Circuit Judge who will do a buddy a favor by affixing his signature to a gov't permission slip. Guess we should consider ourselves lucky this simple procedure, fee and wait is not yet required to purchased a 10/22.

DABTL
September 01, 2013, 10:19
The 'signature' for NFA items. is the issue. In many jurisdictions the LEO will not sign off for anyone for any reason and most people do not have a Thursday poker night with a State's Attorney or Circuit Judge who will do a buddy a favor by affixing his signature to a gov't permission slip. Guess we should consider ourselves lucky this simple procedure, fee and wait is not yet required to purchased a 10/22.

The local 'State's Attorney' cannot sign off.

And, it probably is much cheaper to hire an attorney who does know the Judge to obtain the signature needed than pay for some complex trust agreement. The attorney vouching for the applicant's character is as good as running a background check. Also, the applicant could supply or allow the attorney to provide the background check to be presented to the Judge with the Class III application.

2barearms
September 01, 2013, 17:39
The local 'State's Attorney' cannot sign off.

And, it probably is much cheaper to hire an attorney who does know the Judge to obtain the signature needed than pay for some complex trust agreement. The attorney vouching for the applicant's character is as good as running a background check. Also, the applicant could supply or allow the attorney to provide the background check to be presented to the Judge with the Class III application.

Story below,
http://www.examiner.com/article/nfa-firearms-collectors-group-initiated-atf-gun-trust-rule-change

If you have a CHL why would someone need to 'vouch' for you? Looks like
NFA Collectors ass osciation set the ball rolling like they did in '86. They suggested to the ATF that someone on a Trust as a 'beneficiary' could gain
access to machineguns and not have been vetted. They have since tried to
walk this one back, but they are elitists like Bill and don't want a fight, just
maintain the value of their collections.

The sign off IS part of the new plan which will all but shut down the Silencer
trade in Harris County since the Marxist Mexican Sheriff won't have any part
of it. Good luck finding a Judge too.

DABTL
September 01, 2013, 18:07
Story below,
http://www.examiner.com/article/nfa-firearms-collectors-group-initiated-atf-gun-trust-rule-change

If you have a CHL why would someone need to 'vouch' for you? Looks like
NFA Collectors ass osciation set the ball rolling like they did in '86. They suggested to the ATF that someone on a Trust as a 'beneficiary' could gain
access to machineguns and not have been vetted. They have since tried to
walk this one back, but they are elitists like Bill and don't want a fight, just
maintain the value of their collections.

The sign off IS part of the new plan which will all but shut down the Silencer
trade in Harris County since the Marxist Mexican Sheriff won't have any part
of it. Good luck finding a Judge too.

You must be sitting at the computer eating nose buggers again.

A CHL would be helpful. Of course. But, getting a Judge to sign off is something best left to those who know them. Get it? Lawyers make money.

2barearms
September 01, 2013, 18:24
You must be sitting at the computer eating nose buggers again.

A CHL would be helpful. Of course. But, getting a Judge to sign off is something best left to those who know them. Get it? Lawyers make money.

Ok so what is the difference, a LAWYER does your trust, a lawyer takes
$350 to the courthouse? Show me one Judge in Harris County that would
sign a Form 4.

Better than you eating dingleberries.

DABTL
September 01, 2013, 18:33
Ok so what is the difference, a LAWYER does your trust, a lawyer takes
$350 to the courthouse? Show me one Judge in Harris County that would
sign a Form 4.

Better than you eating dingleberries.

OK. Do it your way. I could care less.

SWOHFAL
September 01, 2013, 18:41
You must be sitting at the computer eating nose buggers again.

A CHL would be helpful. Of course. But, getting a Judge to sign off is something best left to those who know them. Get it? Lawyers make money.

Sounds like systemic corruption to me.

2barearms
September 01, 2013, 19:30
OK. Do it your way. I could care less.

Again, you don't have a Judge in your pocket in Harris County. I know
just about all of the major NFA/Suppressor dealers and none would be where
they are today without the NFA Trust.

So, you're saying for $100 you would walk a machine gun past a District Judge? I already have a Trust done by one of the best guys in Houston,
used it twice. I'd give you $100 to hand walk a Form 4 though.

D P Six
September 01, 2013, 20:23
NFA's without 'trusts' are like CCL's before 'shall issue'. My first NFA signoff was done by the Sheriff on a handshake that I and my family would vote for him in the upcoming election (I did). They always want to be paid.

m60shooter
September 01, 2013, 20:56
NFA's without 'trusts' are like CCL's before 'shall issue'. My first NFA signoff was done by the Sheriff on a handshake that I and my family would vote for him in the upcoming election (I did). They always want to be paid.

you make a good point. it's good to let your sheriff know you'll be voting for him, if he is NFA friendly.

DABTL
September 02, 2013, 09:08
Again, you don't have a Judge in your pocket in Harris County. I know
just about all of the major NFA/Suppressor dealers and none would be where
they are today without the NFA Trust.

So, you're saying for $100 you would walk a machine gun past a District Judge? I already have a Trust done by one of the best guys in Houston,
used it twice. I'd give you $100 to hand walk a Form 4 though.

I cannot tell you where you heard all that from me. A mystery.

However, anytime a lawyer tells you he has found a loophole around a law, especially one involving full auto guns, you should know there is a con going on.

I first heard of NFA trusts some years ago. I declined to take the bait then and have not now. The 'trusts' were just paper to get a restricted item without any thought about going forward. And, I have no doubt that building silencers and such boomed as word of this miracle increased.

But, today is today and not last month. Going forward I can see many clouds on the horizon.

First, what about all those existing trusts? When ATF begins asking for Form 4 applications from all members, officers or beneficiaries of the existing NFA trusts what will happen? Several possibilities come to mind. First a lot of people with NFA trusts will not be able to get the Form 4 signed much less pass the background check. Then what? What if the NFA trust cannot get the Form 4 or pass the background check for participants? Possession or transfer of the items may be impossible. Assuming that an item is in a NFA trust and the participants do not qualify, can the item be transferred legally to a qualified buyer or recipient? What if only one participant in a NFA trust qualifies, can that person obtain title from those who do not qualify? If some full auto weapon of value is in one of those NFA trusts, who takes the loss?

Those really, really, good lawyers who got NFA trusts going will be making a killing off this, I suspect.

Second, where are the former NFA trusts being the way to go going to find relief?

Getting cleared with a Form 4 signature will become very important. You cannot just walk up to a Judge and say 'sign this please' and get a happy result. The same hold true with a Sheriff or Chief of Police. So, I think many people will either not have the toy of their dreams or have to go to a great deal more effort than before.

I think NFA trusts are dead. Graveyard dead. The pitch to the Sheriff, Chief of Police or Judge that a bunch of us want own a full auto weapon will immediately raise eyebrows. Vouching for several people to ATF is not likely.

Finally, NFA items will no longer be easily obtained or cheap, in my opinion. Silencer inventories will be gone, either sold cheap to those who can buy or destroyed.

Can you hire a lawyer to walk a Form 4 through? Probably. Cheaply? No. Successfully? Your guess is as good as mine.

2barearms
September 02, 2013, 09:40
I cannot tell you where you heard all that from me. A mystery.

However, anytime a lawyer tells you he has found a loophole around a law, especially one involving full auto guns, you should know there is a con going on.

I first heard of NFA trusts some years ago. I declined to take the bait then and have not now. The 'trusts' were just paper to get a restricted item without any thought about going forward. And, I have no doubt that building silencers and such boomed as word of this miracle increased.

But, today is today and not last month. Going forward I can see many clouds on the horizon.

First, what about all those existing trusts? When ATF begins asking for Form 4 applications from all members, officers or beneficiaries of the existing NFA trusts what will happen? Several possibilities come to mind. First a lot of people with NFA trusts will not be able to get the Form 4 signed much less pass the background check. Then what? What if the NFA trust cannot get the Form 4 or pass the background check for participants? Possession or transfer of the items may be impossible. Assuming that an item is in a NFA trust and the participants do not qualify, can the item be transferred legally to a qualified buyer or recipient? What if only one participant in a NFA trust qualifies, can that person obtain title from those who do not qualify? If some full auto weapon of value is in one of those NFA trusts, who takes the loss?

Those really, really, good lawyers who got NFA trusts going will be making a killing off this, I suspect.

Second, where are the former NFA trusts being the way to go going to find relief?

Getting cleared with a Form 4 signature will become very important. You cannot just walk up to a Judge and say 'sign this please' and get a happy result. The same hold true with a Sheriff or Chief of Police. So, I think many people will either not have the toy of their dreams or have to go to a great deal more effort than before.

I think NFA trusts are dead. Graveyard dead. The pitch to the Sheriff, Chief of Police or Judge that a bunch of us want own a full auto weapon will immediately raise eyebrows. Vouching for several people to ATF is not likely.

Finally, NFA items will no longer be easily obtained or cheap, in my opinion. Silencer inventories will be gone, either sold cheap to those who can buy or destroyed.

Can you hire a lawyer to walk a Form 4 through? Probably. Cheaply? No. Successfully? Your guess is as good as mine.

You apparently never tried to get a Form 4 signed in Harris County/Houston.
So I can only assume you are still against folks owning MG's especially FG42's.

You seem to be the same control freak ilk that the NFA Collectors Assoc. is
made up of. The fact of the matter is that the person named on the trust passed a background check, the beneficiaries are a different matter. Ex Post
Facto? Corporations are another issue but they have been around since the
beginning and were there to give Thompsons to the goons at the mine gates.

This will certainly become a political flash point, Texas having just passed the
Hunting with Suppressed Rifles Law, Abbott will probably take them to task.

DABTL
September 02, 2013, 10:36
You apparently never tried to get a Form 4 signed in Harris County/Houston.
So I can only assume you are still against folks owning MG's especially FG42's.

You seem to be the same control freak ilk that the NFA Collectors Assoc. is
made up of. The fact of the matter is that the person named on the trust passed a background check, the beneficiaries are a different matter. Ex Post
Facto? Corporations are another issue but they have been around since the
beginning and were there to give Thompsons to the goons at the mine gates.

This will certainly become a political flash point, Texas having just passed the
Hunting with Suppressed Rifles Law, Abbott will probably take them to task.

You know, I write you a serious analysis and you reply like an idiot.

Next time you need a serious answer why not go to the former Assistant District Attorney? He is, after all, the one who got you into this mess. I am certain he knows all about ex post facto laws and Greg Abbott will surely save you.

2barearms
September 02, 2013, 11:39
You know, I write you a serious analysis and you reply like an idiot.

Next time you need a serious answer why not go to the former Assistant District Attorney? He is, after all, the one who got you into this mess. I am certain he knows all about ex post facto laws and Greg Abbott will surely save you.

No, you made a ridiculous statement about folks using the only means at their
disposal to acquire Suppressors, SBR's and Machineguns. So you'd suggest that
since corporate and trust methods would be subjected to the sign offs it's
'oh well' no guns for you? wtf. Then to make the statement that lawyers who
can con a judge into signing off is somehow beneficial to gun 'enthusiasts?

DABTL
September 02, 2013, 11:41
No, you made a ridiculous statement about folks using the only means at their
disposal to acquire Suppressors, SBR's and Machineguns. So you'd suggest that
since corporate and trust methods would be subjected to the sign offs it's
'oh well' no guns for you? wtf. Then to make the statement that lawyers who
can con a judge into signing off is somehow beneficial to gun 'enthusiasts?

Pay no attention to anything I have said. Do it your way. Just do not come back whining.

2barearms
September 02, 2013, 12:03
Pay no attention to anything I have said. Do it your way. Just do not come back whining.


Nothing has changed as of right this moment. You can still file the paperwork
with your trust. There is a 90 day comments period before they are going to make any changes. You can bet there will be a lot of commentary on this.
A good friend of mine in the NFA world is a former Asst District Atty here he knows the ropes.

The NFA Collectors Asso is just trying to make their collections worth more money.

It's seems like GHW Bush pulled some crap like this and he got summarily
canned in the following election, the difference here is that bedwetting demicrats feel 'safer' believing that taking away our firearms somehow
makes you safer.

There are some states that have banned the ownership of Machineguns etc,
so no one is saying that the Marxists like you who control the legal field are
going to side with the Constitution and make machineguns and suppressors MORE available.

DABTL
September 02, 2013, 12:57
Nothing has changed as of right this moment. You can still file the paperwork
with your trust. There is a 90 day comments period before they are going to make any changes. You can bet there will be a lot of commentary on this.
A good friend of mine in the NFA world is a former Asst District Atty here he knows the ropes.

The NFA Collectors Asso is just trying to make their collections worth more money.

It's seems like GHW Bush pulled some crap like this and he got summarily
canned in the following election, the difference here is that bedwetting demicrats feel 'safer' believing that taking away our firearms somehow
makes you safer.

There are some states that have banned the ownership of Machineguns etc,
so no one is saying that the Marxists like you who control the legal field are
going to side with the Constitution and make machineguns and suppressors MORE available.

You will be much better off with that all knowing former Asst. District Attorney who knows all the ropes. I am just a humble observer who is not in your mess.

2barearms
September 02, 2013, 15:29
You will be much better off with that all knowing former Asst. District Attorney who knows all the ropes. I am just a humble observer who is not in your mess.

I'm not sure how you figger I'm in some sort of mess. I have all the stuff I
can shoot for the rest of my life. Really could care less but others may want
to call there their Reps like I have. You attorneys ARE the problem, my apologies to the ones I like.

DABTL
September 02, 2013, 16:12
I'm not sure how you figger I'm in some sort of mess. I have all the stuff I
can shoot for the rest of my life. Really could care less but others may want
to call there their Reps like I have. You attorneys ARE the problem, my apologies to the ones I like.

Once again you are absolutely right.

PS: Do not consider this as legal advice. Were I to give you legal advice it would be more than substantially different.

2barearms
September 02, 2013, 16:50
Once again you are absolutely right.

PS: Do not consider this as legal advice. Were I to give you legal advice it would be more than substantially different.

Bill, I'm sure that as lawyers go you may well be a good one, but the world
is full of talented barristers.

DABTL
September 02, 2013, 17:07
Bill, I'm sure that as lawyers go you may well be a good one, but the world
is full of talented barristers.

And, former Asst. District Attorney's. Tip if your awesome former Asst. District Attorney spent more than five years in that job, he will not have a clue. And, that is just from decades of doing this stuff.

The world is also filled with jerk clients. Just sayin.

Skilter
September 02, 2013, 17:51
http://blog.princelaw.com/2013/09/02/should-i-start-a-trust-or-corporate-entity-given-atfs-proposal-atf-41p/

Good link to read... time to set up and submit ASAP.

DABTL
September 02, 2013, 17:58
http://blog.princelaw.com/2013/09/02/should-i-start-a-trust-or-corporate-entity-given-atfs-proposal-atf-41p/

Good link to read... time to set up and submit ASAP.

They are lawyers. They claim that the National Firearms Act Trade and Collectors Association (NFATCA) is a subdivision of that firm. This National Firearms Act Trade and Collectors Association (NFATCA) claims to be a lobbying group for gun manufacturers.

They do not reveal that in the cited post.

Just for your information.

DABTL
September 03, 2013, 07:28
An update:

My son hangs about on other gun sites. On one site, I do not know which one, a lawyer, I do not know his name, posted he was making about $20,000 per month on NFA trusts. He was doing them on a fill in the blank form. One after another. Apparently someone took the form and blanked out the names, etc., and passed it around to his friends. The lawyer was upset.

When asked what he was going to do, he replied, go back to being a lawyer.

After I had seen a couple of the NFA trusts I compared them to an automated form program. Yep, you guessed it.

I do not know where all this is going. But, I bet ATF will approve nothing in the 90 day wait period.

Skilter
September 03, 2013, 09:24
They are lawyers. They claim that the National Firearms Act Trade and Collectors Association (NFATCA) is a subdivision of that firm. This National Firearms Act Trade and Collectors Association (NFATCA) claims to be a lobbying group for gun manufacturers.

They do not reveal that in the cited post.

Just for your information.

Uh... I was around when they created the organization and familiar with some of the people that started it as founding members so, no... I don't need any of "your" information.

But, it's nice to see that your "Hooked on Phonics" lessons are working.

DABTL
September 03, 2013, 09:39
Uh... I was around when they created the organization and familiar with some of the people that started it as founding members so, no... I don't need any of "your" information.

But, it's nice to see that your "Hooked on Phonics" lessons are working.

I pointed it out so that the interested here would know of the relationship. You may or may not care.

The more I see about this NFA Trust mythology, the more astounded I am.

But, I am not an expert nor a lobbyist and the best advice I can give is use caution in important things.

stimpsonjcat
September 03, 2013, 16:10
Big difference between owning an NFA item, and being able to posses it. Beneficiaries might be children, they can't pass a background check. But if the grantor dies, the trustee can still transfer the items ownership (not registration) to the beneficiary, though they will not be able to take possession of it until they can legally do so. Or just leave it in the trust until a legal remedy is available, or sell it to fund necessary trust-related business.

Lot's of scarey talk here, but I don't see the legit fear.

A trust is just a legal entity made out of people, with very well defined roles and clear reasons for those roles. There's nothing magical in a trust that lets an unauthorized person possess an NFA item.

No idea about corporations though.

EricCartmanR1
September 03, 2013, 17:10
Shit! I have 4 items on my NFA Trust, and 2 more pending. I really don't know what this means.

Even under current laws, I am not sure how to properly transfer an NFA item to the Successor Trustee once I pass. I am going to look through the ATF-NFA Handbook, and start making some calls. Hopefully get something in writing.

Sampson1986
September 03, 2013, 17:55
It is not advisable, DABTL, to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your audience.

DABTL
September 03, 2013, 19:09
It is not advisable, DABTL, to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your audience.

I pass out thoughts here. My advice was to use caution in important matters.

And, I suspect that there is much more to come on this mess. But, I encourage you and everyone else who sought legal advice to return to their lawyer for legal advice about your particular trust provisions as I have only seen a couple, and they were from a documents assembly program, basically fill in the blank.

I told shlomo earlier, anyone getting into a deal should ask the attorney how to get out of the deal should that be necessary. That is legal advice you can take to the bank.

I have edited this to add: Like any advice on investing I have given on the falfiles, use caution. I do not gamble. I do not take risks to become rich or make a million by putting everything into play. This controversy involving NFA Trusts does not mean anything to me or my family. We followed settled law in every case. No risks. No hope that somehow we had found the place where flowers, lambs and butterfly's are plentiful. I will watch TV tonight at ease. Others who have these NFA trusts may not.

2barearms
September 03, 2013, 21:27
http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/inside-atf/2013/082913-wash-machine-guns-destructive-devices-and-certain-other-firearms.pdf

L1A1 Posted this in the Gen Firearms section. I'm still reviewing it.
An important note: This IS NOT law and has not been adopted. They
would love nothing more than to make life hard for us poor gun collector types,
but the louder we yell the shorter this list will get.

One area that mentioned retroactive stuff was the part about Form 1 'making
firearms' SBR's and Suppressors. Said something about 24 months prior.

Lets see what it really says.

2barearms
September 03, 2013, 22:08
On page 9 and 10 NFATCA is making the request for a rules change.

Sampson1986
September 03, 2013, 22:16
I went with the trust route because the CLEOs in my area are not very bright. They are not the kind of people I want knowing what I have or want.

The Chief of Police here actually tried to get the feds involved in a firearm-on-school-grounds situation - which was bullshit. First of all, the local high school doesn't have designated parking lots; instead students park streetside. Second, the "firearm" in question was a ******* paintball gun. He blabbered to the local rag how ATF didn't pursue the issue. Well, how the **** could they? It was a paintball gun for ****'s sake.

I found a sharp young attorney who has lots of experience draft my Trust. Time will tell if I made the right choice.

2barearms
September 03, 2013, 22:56
I have read the 52 or so pgs of drivel that the .gov has written.

It does not appear that there is any language that could be construed as
retroactively making you file a CLEO sign-off for an existing trust.

Looks like the NFATCA petitioned the ATF on 12-9-09 with regard to
Trust/Corp issue. read pg 9

Page 22 deals with the issue of CLEO sign offs or the lack there of. They
are proposing to change the language to say that you are the person and that
they can't find a reason to believe you are breaking state or local law etc etc
etc. There will almost certainly have to be a provision that makes it mandatory that they review Form 1,4 and 5 applications.

Page 28 Costs of implementing this nonsense.

Page 41 Average cost per entity "trust" $293.00 per application. Tax.