View Full Version : Same records for non C&R firearms?
March 01, 2002, 06:18
Once one obtains their C&R FFL, are ALL firearms owned need to be documented and are they subject to scrutiny if the ATF makes a visit? It seems to me that they would have no business inspecting non C&R firearms, but this is the ATF...
March 01, 2002, 08:22
shootin from the hip here but the only thing im concerned about is being able to produce the weapons that appear in my bound book.
i have other c&r age guns that were 4473d or i bot at gunshows and im pretty darn sure those are none of atfs' business-when they inspect (from what ive heard this is almost never)their concern is record keeping and making sure you have not been dealing as opposed to collecting.
March 01, 2002, 09:34
I have an ATF newsletter somewhere that answers some of these questions. Bottom line is that the book is a record of all acquisitions and dispositions of C&R eligible firearms during the period that the license is in effect. It wouldn't matter how the firearm was acquired; gift, trade, replacement from vendor, bought on 4473, bought unpapered from private individual, whatever, it's supposed to go in. A previously owned C&R firearm would only be entered if it's disposed of. Non-C&R firearms do not get entered.
BTW, they can't just drop in for a visit. They can make an appointment for an annual inspection (but, as Gates has said, rarely do), and you have the option of having the inspection at their location rather than yours.
March 01, 2002, 12:51
One other requirement that you have in common with the dealer FFL holders is that if you dispose of 2 or more handguns to the same non-licensee within a week, YOU MUST fill out that multiple handgun transaction form, and comply with its filing requirements.
March 01, 2002, 21:17
I believe you have the option to bring your collection along with your bound book to there office ;)
runnin an gunnin
March 03, 2002, 12:30
I have had several conversations with the ATF. The only guns that must be recorded in bound book are the ones you used your license to obtain! :p
If you owned 8 mausers before your license was obtained. Guess what you do not need to enter them cause you didn't use the license to obtain them.
If you have a C&R and buy a Garand from DCM .. guess what .. you don't log it in as you didn't use the license to obtain it.
IF you live in MISSOURI and you use your C&R to override the C&R statute and purchase a NON-C&R Machinegun ... guess what YOU NEED TO enter the gun into your log book. The gun is not C&R but you used your license to obtain it! :D ASK ME HOW I KNOW :D
Any other questions?
March 03, 2002, 12:37
only log what you obtained using your license. you are no different from any unlicensed individual in any other manner.
March 03, 2002, 13:32
Can a C&R licensee sell a C&R firearm to a non-licensee?
runnin an gunnin
March 03, 2002, 13:48
You may dispose of a C&R firearm to a non-licensee of the same state as you and you must obtain his name, address, state issued ID information .. etc. But the easiest way to sell a gun is to transfer it to a 01 dealer and let your friend pick it up from the dealer and everyone including the ATF is happy!
March 03, 2002, 14:28
Thanks for the reply. So the bottom-line is a non-licensee can order a C&R firearm from a vendor through a C&R license holder.
March 03, 2002, 15:28
Originally posted by Talyn:
<STRONG>Thanks for the reply. So the bottom-line is a non-licensee can order a C&R firearm from a vendor through a C&R license holder.
Hmmmmm - If a non-licensee is "ordering" through a C&R FFL then it sure sounds like the C&R FFL is "engaged in the business" not collecting!
Purpose of Collectors (03) FFL is to collect. Not to "engage in the business," nor to purchase for gift purposes, nor to act as an agent to get cheap prices on C&Rs for friends . . . at least that's probably what ATF will think!
It is permissable to subsequently dispose of firearms purchased via your C&R FFL - laws are silent on how how many transfers would take you out of the realm of collecting and into the realm of "engaged in the business."
Could you purchase a firearm to enhance your collection and then subsequently decide that it is excess to your collection and transfer out of your Bound Book to either a licensee or non-licensee (in compliance with all applicable state & local laws) . . .yes - BUT, if your book is ever examined by ATF, it might look a little fishy if you have a number of transfers out of your book soon after coming in and you'll want to have a nice explanation ready for the ATF agent.
Is it likely that you will be inspected by ATF - chances are slim - they have bigger fish to fry and don't spend a lot of time with the C&R folks - but it's always possible!
March 03, 2002, 17:05
All good points to consider. I'm just trying to figure out what one can and can not do within reason.
The C&R Firearms acquisition and disposition record indicates that such transfers are legit. Again, within reason.
Thanks for your feedback.
March 04, 2002, 03:15
Hey guys (runnin and Pancho) what about this:
Here are some quotes from a November 1996 BATF letter from Charles Bartlett, Acting Chief, Firearms and Explosives Operations Branch, responding to similar questions:
'If after obtaining a license a firearm is aquired for your personal collection, it must be entered into your bound book whether or not you use your collectors license to purchase the weapon. See 27 CFR 178.125(f). Any subsequent sale would have to be entered in your bound book records.'
Department of the Treasury
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
F: PD: FB: FT: nvc
AUG 10 1998
(inside address redacted)
Dear Mr. (redacted):
This is in response to your letter dated July 20, 1998, to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. In your letter, you have inquired whether it is necessary to record the transfer of a curio or relic firearm in your acquisition and disposition records.
Please be advised that, in accordance with 27 CFR [S] 178.125 (g), a licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. Therefore, regardless of whether the curio or relic firearm was obtained using your collector's license, the acquisition must be entered into your records upon receipt. Accordingly, if you, as a licensed collector, dispose of a curio or relic firearm, the disposition also must be entered into your record book regardless of when it was obtained.
We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your request. Should you require additional information or have any questions, please contact us.
for Christopher M. Cuyler
Chief, Firearms Programs Division
So, it appears that the official stance is that any C&R firearms you purchase during the time you have a license, whether using your license or not, have to be recorded.
Mad Dog 7.62
March 04, 2002, 05:00
Blackbird, that's a little confusing. The top part of thier letter sounds like it applies to ANY firearm you obtain, while the bottom specifically addresses C&R firearms.
My understanding at this point is that just C&R firearms go into my C&R book. :confused:
March 04, 2002, 09:44
You did notice I am quoting two letters and that the first is edited down? The bottom line is that according to this and the "newsletter" send in December of 2000 to all license holders...
1) You MUST record in your bound book ALL C&R firearms acquired after you obtained your license REGARDLESS of whether you used your license to obtain them. It doesn't matter if you purchased them at a shop on a 4473 form, purchased them from an individual, inherited them, found them laying in a dumpster, etc.
2) You MUST record in your bound book ALL disposals of C&R firearms INLCUDING those acquired BEFORE you obtained your license (the acquisition side of the book should read "Acquired previous to licensing") regardless of how they were disposed of.
I know it sucks and is sometimes confusing but ATF has stated so unequivocally, IN WRITING (as opposed to during a telephone conversation which is going to be hard to prove in court).
Now for the bad part. The law also states that you must make these log entries within 24 hours for acquisition and 1 week for dispositions... which means that if you haven't been doing this for the ones you did not purchase with your license you did not comply with the timing requirement; which would be easy to verify by the order of the entries in your bound book... SO once again a lot of people get made into paper criminals by the bureaucrats. What to do? Transcribe your bound book and fill in the holes as you go? I'm not sure this wouldn't run afoul of the intent of the bound book as a permanent, unmodifiable record...
Does anyone know the answer to this dilema?
[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: blackbird ]
March 04, 2002, 21:41
(G2) Does a collector's license afford any privileges to the licensee with respect to acquiring or disposing of firearms other than curios or relics in interstate or foreign commerce? [Back]
No. A licensed collector has the same status under the GCA as a nonlicensee except for transactions in curio or relic firearms. [27 CFR 178.93]
I've been basing my understanding on this passage. it says other then interstate commerce of C&Rs i am the same as everybody else. Of course if you have a different reason based on a letter from ATf...
March 04, 2002, 22:21
Here's a link to the ATF letter...
Open Letter To All Federally Licensed Collectors Of Curio Or Relic Firearms (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/crffl/open_letter_cr_20001222.jpg)
March 04, 2002, 23:05
Well...now I'm really confused!
March 05, 2002, 00:10
I really don't see the confusion. There are 4 letters that state unequivocally that after you get your license ALL C&R's regardless of how you get them HAVE to go in the book.
PanchoP: Read your passage again... "Does a collector's license afford any privileges"
I for one don't consider the bound book a privilege. I really think it's a pain in the arse. The passage makes NO mention of requirements, only priviledges. Examples of such would be if the C&R licensee could purchase non-C&R interstate - answer NO, the C&R licensee can carry concealed - answer NO, the licensee can engage in resale - answer NO.
What it does say that sounds good (but I haven't had the opportunity or need to investigate is the part about "in interstate or foreign commerce"
Anyhow, the letters clarify the requirement.
The question remains though, how do you rectify this if you were unaware prior to the clarification letters without running afoul of the law?
[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: blackbird ]
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