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pongo1
February 05, 2012, 06:01
I'm considering purchase of a full auto heavy barrel Springfield Armory SAR-48 and have some questions:

1. I've read a couple sources (Duncan Long's FAL book, Wikipedia) that say the FAL heavy barrel rifles were dropped from service because they often jammed after 2 or 3 rounds. I've not heard of this being a problem with privately owned guns. Any explanation for this? Any experience with this happening with the SAR-48?

2. Any estimate as to how many SAR-48s were built/converted FA?

3. Any experience with the DSA 30 rd magazines in SAR-48 heavy barrel full auto?

Thanks!

1gewehr
February 05, 2012, 15:02
The problem with the FAL 'bang-bang-click' is not a problem with the rifle. It's the magazines. If the magazine has a weak spring or is dirty or full of sand, then the friction of pushing up 28 rounds in time for the bolt to catch it can can slow the next round down enough that it doesn't get chambered.

It typically only happened when the magazine was dirty or sandy, and only on the 3rd round. By the time three or four rounds have been fired, the pressure on the magazine spring is enough less to not cause this to happen.

I have never actually seen this happen myself with 20rd mags. I have seen it a couple of times with 30rd magazines. Keep your magazines clean and it's not an issue.

A friend who was a dealer bought an Israeli HB from Armex. He allowed me to put a great number of rounds through it as long as I supplied the ammo. Keep your weight behind the gun and you'll find it very accurate!

Tim Dreas
February 05, 2012, 17:02
It is more of problem with the heavy barrels than the light barrels. Supposedly the problem is harmonics related, which is worse with the heavy barrel that the light barrel. Some other suggestions claim it may be due to the increased thickness of the barrel at gas port with the same diameter, making the gas port "longer." The other issue may be that Israel (and maybe some inch rifle countries), issued replacement barrels without gas blocks being factory installed and these may not have as good a gas seal to the barrel as the Belgian and Argentine heavy barrels that had the replacement barrels leave the factory with the gas blocks installed. Of the the ones (not many though) that I have found a "fix", I slightly increased the diameter of the gas port through the barrel and this has seemed to fix the problem. Then the gas regulator is adjusted for the larger gas port. The harmonic, "bang, bang, click" problem is not just a heavy barrel FALO problem but it also occurs in other automatic firearms of different makes.

robmac
February 06, 2012, 12:05
I have fired many, many of these. No jamming issues related to the reliability of the rifle.

Tim Dreas
February 06, 2012, 19:03
About the only functional differences between the light barrel and the heavy barrel are the weight, which may help induce a harmonic parts "bounce" problem, and the thickness of the barrel at the gas port, which may reduce the "gas signal." All other mechanical parts are the same and the heavy barrel models seem to have more full auto reliability problems than the light barrel models, even when using the exact same magazines.

missileer
February 08, 2012, 00:26
Pongo, please check your pm's. Thanks!

pongo1
February 09, 2012, 09:21
Interesting posts. If harmonic barrel vibration is a main culprit I would expect that it could be affected by shortening the barrel, varying sling tension or use/non-use of the bipod.

Tim Dreas
February 09, 2012, 10:19
Barrel weight can affect the harmonics of a rifle. One thing that might make the FAL suffer from harmonic issues more than some other designs is the bolt to bolt carrier weight ratio is not very high. Th AK-47 has a 5 to 1 ratio and the AK-74 has a 6 to 1 ratio. The higher the bolt to bolt carrier weight ratio is, the more reliable an autoloading rifle usually is.

I found my fix to the problem when one heavy barrel FALO had to have it's gas bleed turned nearly fully closed to operate. I opened u the gas port to get a "normal" gas setting and at the same time fixed the, "bang, bang, click" problem. I tried it on others that didn't really show a gas problem but sometimes had the, bang, bang, click problem. I had to opened the gas bleed adjustment a bit in those to compensate but the problem was gone. So it seems not to just the amount of gas to the gas piston but maybe the volume or the signal through the gas port. Not only is the gas port in the barrel "Longer" through the thicker barrel, but the gas block has a larger diameter around the barrel. This may or may not allow a bit more gas leakage around the barrel. I do know on some machine guns the length of the gas port and gas block can effect operation as well as gas port diameter. Dirt and sand in the FAL and FALO can have a huge effect and nice clean and lubed rifles at the range don't always show the problem but it does seem to be more of a problem with the heavy barrel models than the light barrel models.

Skilter
February 09, 2012, 10:25
The problem with the FAL 'bang-bang-click' is not a problem with the rifle. It's the magazines. If the magazine has a weak spring or is dirty or full of sand, then the friction of pushing up 28 rounds in time for the bolt to catch it can can slow the next round down enough that it doesn't get chambered.

It typically only happened when the magazine was dirty or sandy, and only on the 3rd round. By the time three or four rounds have been fired, the pressure on the magazine spring is enough less to not cause this to happen.

I have never actually seen this happen myself with 20rd mags. I have seen it a couple of times with 30rd magazines. Keep your magazines clean and it's not an issue.

A friend who was a dealer bought an Israeli HB from Armex. He allowed me to put a great number of rounds through it as long as I supplied the ammo. Keep your weight behind the gun and you'll find it very accurate!

This is what I have found to be true as well (and would include 30 rounders that have been poorly re-parked). I have not tried the DSA mags.

Tim Dreas
February 09, 2012, 10:27
Interesting posts. If harmonic barrel vibration is a main culprit I would expect that it could be affected by shortening the barrel, varying sling tension or use/non-use of the bipod.

On a side note, I have noticed on shorter barreled FAL's that in when firing full auto the recoil is lower. I guess that is because the velocity of bullets is less while their mas is the same. Comparing a 21 inch barrel to an 18 inch barrel, there isn't much difference, but comparing a 21 inch barrel to a 16.25 barrel, the 16.25 inch barrel has less recoil and is easier to control even though the rifle's weight is slightly less. A heavier barrel of the same length of course would be even easier to control.

Lee Carpentieri
April 07, 2012, 05:56
I own a La France type three transferable FA Fal, It's setup with a 11 Inch barrel and a Galil ARM folding stock with the built in rubber recoil pad built into the back of the butt plate area. At over 950 rounds a minute, It was chonographed at that speed, Yes it can be a horizontal jack hammer to someone of smaller and lighter stature. I have no problem with it at 6.2 and 240 pnds. Some of my smaller friends have a problem with it after three 20 round mags have been shot, Thier shoulders turn alittle black and blue, But they lived to tell their friends and family what they shot that day. So unless you've ever shot a Fal in FA with an 11 inch barrel system, Your in for a big surprize.

ExCdnSoldierInTx
April 13, 2012, 17:21
Huh,..

OK, I've put many, many thousands of rounds through the C2's back in the day, and in my opinion, they were bone reliable just like the C1's.

They were, however, universally detested by those who used them because of their awkwardness and weight. ie: if they wanted us to have a real MG, just give us an M60, and we'd have one.
It was no personal rifle, way too cumbersome with it's loose, wobbly handguard and weight, and it was not good as a real MG either with it's limited mag capacity and lack of a cooling shroud.

But it never jammed on me, other than the odd misfeed.

Just my personal thought, that's all...

Skilter
April 26, 2012, 00:49
I would agree if I had unlimited funds and an armory. But, most of us dont have an armory of parts to put together a $25k E3 M60 with linkers etc...

Maybe 10 years ago the M60 was a good option here in the civi state market... but now... it is a much different story and if you want a f/a running 308 the FAL is a good option.

moses
April 26, 2012, 18:11
We have a Dealer sample Izzy HB @ CMP Armory that I built and it is super reliable and a joy to shoot!
I tried to inbed the video but it just show's it as a jpeg, if you want to see it go to http://www.cmparmory.com/ and click on video

http://www.cmparmory.com/images/izzy.jpg

If you have a chance to get the SAR48 HB get it!

pongo1
April 29, 2012, 16:22
OK. I did. 11K. Now the wait...

stimpsonjcat
May 03, 2012, 21:04
Welcome to the SAR4800 club!

Mine is wearing a shorter skirt, but I have plans for a QC rig.

You got a good a good price.

http://home.windstream.net/jbperry/4dl/fafal.jpg

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nTUp9S3s-3o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

kev
May 05, 2012, 13:05
Sure hope SAR4800 is a typo. :eek:

moses
May 05, 2012, 16:50
Stimp's is GTG he has the paper work!

ExCdnSoldierInTx
May 07, 2012, 23:17
Never really had an issue except with dirty equipment.

Unlike the C1, I never used a C2 in a "situation", but used it plenty on the range and in live fire exercises. Despite its uselessness as a squad support MG, it was extremely reliable.

I do remember "those in the know" saying they preferred to use 20 round mags, though... I always thought it was due to the length of the extension rather than FTF issues.

stimpsonjcat
May 14, 2012, 11:37
Sure hope SAR4800 is a typo. :eek:

Sorry, is SAR48 on the form.

hardcalibres
May 22, 2012, 05:40
I have shot both L1A1s and L2A1s on full auto. The L1A1 was a beast and could put most hits on a body sized target only to about 30 yards. Beyond that, only the first one or two rounds in any burst hit the target - the rest hit way above/behind the target or were "skied".

The L2A1 on full auto was better and could hit targets further out but even when fired on the bipod, had a larger cone of fire than the M60. At 100 yards the cone of fire for an M60 was about 1 metre (depending upon the shooter, barrel and whether you bagged the bipod down or just relied upon gravity). The cone of fire for the L2A1 was at least double this size or even bigger.

Reliability wise, we did experience the bang, bang, click sometimes but cleaning the gun usually solved this. We did identify a failure cause that hasn't been mention yet in this post. There are two types of 30 round mags for the inch pattern rifles: Straight ones specifically designed for the L2A1 and the curved ones for the L4A4 7.62mm BREN. The straight ones had stronger springs and worked best because the curved ones were designed to operate upside down (on the BREN) and had weaker springs based upon the gravity assist to the feed force of the rounds.

Overall the L2A2 was considered a bit of a failure in service due to the following characteristics:
1) Big cone of fire - mainly because it was not really heavy enough for accurate 308 on full auto and absence of an effective buffer
2) Limitations of 30 round mags - which were too long for comfortable prone fire anyway
3) Rate of fire limitations based upon non-removeable barrel

I hope the above information is interesting

pongo1
May 11, 2013, 20:18
So, finally got a chance to shoot the selective fire SAR48 Springfield Armory FAL Izzy heavy barrel. It shoots without a hiccup with any mag I had including DSA 30 rounders. I really appreciate the input of those above with real world experience with these guns. As an NFA toy, I have to say it is a total hoot to shoot! It is heavy enough to soak up much of the recoil but light enough to hand hold and feel the power of the 7.62x51 round. It is probably the most manageable of all the transferable full auto battle rifles. Compared to the BAR and Bren it is 1/3-1/4 the price. I look at is as a poor man's BAR, with much easier takedown and cleaning. Compared to the belt feds it is cheaper and easier to run and maintain. Among all the transferables, don't see these for sale often, but I think these qualify as sleepers in the NFA world, along with the FNC.

Skilter
May 11, 2013, 21:17
The new DSA 30's are a good to go.

BigBoy1
May 12, 2013, 06:31
I have an NFA FAL in which I shoot .22LR and that is really a hoot! The FAL has installed in it one of the military .22LR conversion training kits. The heavy rifle with the light round makes it totally controllable. The only problem is the 20 round mags empty too fast!

doneill
May 12, 2013, 08:45
I am at seven months waiting for the Form 4 to be approved on a LaFrance Israeli HB.

I have not exactly been suffering buyer's remorse, but some of the posts I've been reading here and on other boards in the past 9 months have made me a little bit nervous about my decision to get the FAL HB. Among the issues were posts about the third round click, complaints that the FAL kicked and bounced around too much on FA and the alleged issues with DSA mags contributed to my worries.

I have learned a lot here and been reassured by the posts of R1 shooter about the DSA mags and their customer service. The responses to the "kicks to much" about explained that setting the gas system properly reduces the energy of the bolt carrier etc were helpful. Finally the video clips above show the FAL HB to be controllable. I have never shot a LMG match, so I don't know if the 2 m dispersion at 100 M would be a problem, but I would expect that in many tactical applications that would be useful.

Once again, FALFILES proves to be a great site.

Dave O'Neill

kev
May 12, 2013, 10:28
In no way is a HB uncontrollable on FA. I wouldn't even say that about the standard barrel from the shoulder, but you need to know what you're doing. The HB from a bipod is a non-issue. I don't really care for the forward placement of the bipod on the Izzy, but purely from a range firing standpoint it's the best location. The Izzy really rides pretty nice the closer you get to the center of the earth. My only complaint is that the HB FALs are pigs to carry because of the balance,......not the weight. I'd rather carry the FN-D and it's heavier. Purse handle carry is not so bad,.........

I can understand ExCdnSoldierInTx's complaint about the C2(L2). It is an awkward SOB to carry,......even worse than the Izzy. The handguards are pretty lousy(and they don't guard a damn thing!), but that's where I like the bipod to be so it's a tradeoff. The L2 is a third degree burn just waiting to happen, but it's still my favorite rifle caliber MG.

Fear not,.....the HB FAL is a pussycat from the bipod.

ad263210
May 12, 2013, 11:30
The HB is great from a bipod. It was too heavy and long to fire comfortably from a standing unsupported position. As long as you know this going in, you should be fine.

pongo1
May 12, 2013, 11:40
The FN HB came along in the 1950's, at the tail end of the reign of full caliber squad automatic rifles. Tactically similar to the BAR that served the US well in WWII and especially well in Korea against short range mass attacks, it became an anachronism in a world of M60s, MAG 58s and Minimis. However, as NFA transferables the latter are either unobtainable or prohibitively expensive.

dirtyrice
May 12, 2013, 18:03
I only know two board members who own registered fals. One is a sar-48 HB the other is an imbel on imbel post sample. I've never seen either malfunction *shrug* But it's not like either of the owners are dragging them through the dirt regularly.

BigBoy1
May 13, 2013, 06:26
I only know two board members who own registered fals. One is a sar-48 HB the other is an imbel on imbel post sample. I've never seen either malfunction *shrug* But it's not like either of the owners are dragging them through the dirt regularly.

Here is your third registered FAL, although it is not an HB selective FAL, it still is selective fire. My NFA FAL resulted from the conversion of a G-Series FAL into selective fire. The $200 BATF fee was paid and permission was obtained to converted the FAL back in 1974. Any problem I have had with the FAL can be traced to an ammunition problem, i.e. FTF resulting from bad primers, high seated primers, etc. I've removed the wooden hand guard and replaced it with a German G1 bipod which helps the full auto fire immensely.

ad263210
May 13, 2013, 09:32
I own a registered sar48 (so mark me number 4). It is set up as an 11" OSW. I converted it from a izzy after I realized it was to big and heavy for what I wanted to do with it. Been reliable in any form though.

Lee Carpentieri
May 13, 2013, 14:41
I also own a transferable G-Series F/A sniper Fal. The scope mount is factory serial numbered to the gun. Andy the Aussie shot it last year when he came to the States for a vacation. Theres most likely quite few that own F/A Fals on this board.

Now a word of Caution, Funky ammo and bad mags will cause the bang bang click problem also as some have pointed out. I've also had some Fal mags that worked in a semi-auto yet jam in the two Full-auto Fals that I own, Go figure.

pongo1
May 13, 2013, 22:28
I own a registered sar48 (so mark me number 4). It is set up as an 11" OSW. I converted it from a izzy after I realized it was to big and heavy for what I wanted to do with it. Been reliable in any form though.

I have to ask...what does one do with an 11" FAL? Aren't the ballistics pretty close to 7.62x39?

ad263210
May 13, 2013, 22:46
I have to ask...what does one do with an 11" FAL? Aren't the ballistics pretty close to 7.62x39?

Ballistics are better than 7.62x39 by around 2-300 fps (depending on load). The gun is a nice, reasonably small package that has a fun switch. After getting the Izzy, I realized I just don't like long guns. So I went as short as I could go at the time.