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Boomer
December 12, 2011, 11:12
Has anyone else seen this?

For enthusiasts of NFA-controlled firearms (e.g., machine guns, short barrel rifles and shotguns, suppressors), the requirement to get the local chief of police or sheriff's approval on the required Form 1 or Form 4 has been a problem. Started at the inception of the National Firearms Act, the idea was to get the person in front of the chief or sheriff - who was expected to know the "problem children" in his or her jurisdiction - to keep wackos from getting these special weapons. In the 30s through the 70s, that was potentially appropriate: there was no national computer database available at all hours to get criminal histories.

More info here:
http://www.thedealerwire.com/features/225346

As for me I'll believe it when I see it.

Robert

D P Six
December 16, 2011, 22:08
Originally posted by Boomer
........As for me I'll believe it when I see it.


I agree with you on that one.

tdb59
December 16, 2011, 22:47
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3255300#post3255300

gunsmoke
December 17, 2011, 11:17
This is NOT "just" a regulation change to be seen isolated as such. You are reading a report on its affect on the public so it is written that way.

It is in fact part of an administrative reorganization within BATFE that involves the way the Bureau examines and processes forms.

Currently examination has been assigned to examiners alphabetecally by the last name of the applicant. Due to increases in the degree of automation and changes that technology has brought to records maintenance and for the security of records maintenance examination is changing to a geographically based system which should result in a more uniform systematic method of examination of applications.

One of the major goals of this change in the processing of applications is for the examiners to become highly familiar and proficient with STATE LAW requirements applicable to the application process.

So the regulation change is actually motivated by the internal requirements of BATFE NOT because it is easier for applicants!

To the best of my understanding the change has already begun and the goal is full implementation before July of 2012.

If anyone is really interested about the changes contact the NFA Branch at

304-616-4500

with any questions.

griffudd
December 17, 2011, 14:05
Thanks for posting this. I'm currently awaiting a Form 3 transfer to my state, so I can begin the Form 4. I'm buying through an NFA trust.

It sounds like I need to expedite my Form 4 as much as possible before the flood of new Form 4 requests come in, to avoid any additional delays.

Overall, however, this sounds like a good thing.

It'll probably raise the selling price of Class III firearms, as the demand will likely increase with the CLEO requirement being waived.

D P Six
December 17, 2011, 20:27
It has been 25 years since I aquired an NFA item. The sheriff at the time was only concerned that I was registered to vote and that I was voting for him. My son recently got a sign off for a can. It must have 'hurt' the CLEO to have to do this, even for a fellow state worker, but he made it clear he would never sign for a MG as "people don't need those kind of guns!" Taking the LEO out of the loop would be a welcome change even if it increases the wait time which is now over 5 months, as a Trust is the only option many people have.

EVC-3
December 28, 2011, 23:14
Nothing is free however. The compromise which is currently being spoken of, would require of those using a Trust for NFA, to have a NICS check performed on them (or the appropriate exemption, like a state-issued CCW card) at the time of pickup of the NFA item from their dealer.

Of course, in-state NFA transfers wouldn't have to do this.

As it stands, there's no background check on the person who comes to pick up the "Trust's NFA device" from the dealer, once the Form 4 has been returned, approved, from Martinsburg.

Box 22 on Page 2 of the 4473 applies: "No NICS check was required because transaction involved only NFA firearms".

However, and most FFLs who do NFA business don't know this, a requirement for a "Statement, signed under penalty of perjury" which states that the firearm, in this case an NFA firearm, belongs to the Trust (or Corp, LLC, LLP etc...) even though the person picking up the item has to enter their personal information on the 4473.

The NFA Branch does perform a typical "wants and warrants/DV conviction" background check on the "grantor and trustee" of a Trust during the approval of the Form 4. (Or Form 1 if they are the "maker" of the NFA device)

jaykden
December 29, 2011, 03:16
i would rather have the NICS check than depending on a CLEO with an agenda.

ymmv...

EVC-3
December 29, 2011, 12:20
We had an IOI in here who called the Trust route a "loophole". I told her she thinks too much like a jack booted thug and forgot who she works for.

Following the Law as written doesn't make it a "loophole". It simply means that bureaucrats don't like it.

I went on to say that if the stupid, anachronistic CLEO sign-off was done away with more folks would turn in print cards and do individual transfers, as NFA items held on individual transfers can be bequeathed, tax free, even Interstate, to lawful heirs, and most folks I've done business with over the years would rather do an individual transfer.

aardq
January 06, 2012, 20:50
EVC-3, Can you please educate us as to what an IOI is?
Thanks,
Dan

D P Six
January 06, 2012, 22:52
'Industry Operations Investigators' is a position within the ATF that among other things does investigations and inspections pertain to firearms.

gunsmoke
January 06, 2012, 23:30
EVERYONE even an IOI is entitled to their opinions. However this particlar opinion displays an astounding and manifest IGNORANCE of the basics of the civil laws pertaining to property ownership. If it is a "loophole" to Form 4 for a Trust then why is it not for a corporation for example WELLS FARGO and thier armored courier services? Who are those Thompson 1928s that they carry and proudly display in front of the banks while transferring large amounts of cuurency?

If that is a loopjole then why does the FBI not replace the services of acting as couriers for currency transfers? Why does WELLS FARGO a corporation and under the law a juridical personsubject to the other rights of property ownership as any other "person" either natural or juridical?

That IOI has a political agenda and should go and live in CUBA if she cannot handle private property ownership under our constitution and certainly should never be commissioned as any kind of peace officer (if she is) in the United States. I am sure she was required to take an oath to uphold and defens the Constitution, and she should realize that oath did not contain ANY qualifications. There is no such thing as a "loophole" in our law. Our law is what it is and as it is written in English for the time being at least.

mosbysmen
January 22, 2012, 19:52
does anyone know if this has gone into effect , it is really the only thing that has kept me from jumping in .

gunsmoke
January 22, 2012, 20:20
does anyone know if this has gone into effect , it is really the only thing that has kept me from jumping in .


Please refer to post #4. It is my understanding that about JULY of this year will be the time the change goes into effect. There is a phone number in post #4 for up to date info.

BDMERC1
January 23, 2012, 23:25
Has anyone else seen this?

For enthusiasts of NFA-controlled firearms (e.g., machine guns, short barrel rifles and shotguns, suppressors), the requirement to get the local chief of police or sheriff's approval on the required Form 1 or Form 4 has been a problem. Started at the inception of the National Firearms Act, the idea was to get the person in front of the chief or sheriff - who was expected to know the "problem children" in his or her jurisdiction - to keep wackos from getting these special weapons. In the 30s through the 70s, that was potentially appropriate: there was no national computer database available at all hours to get criminal histories.

More info here:
http://www.thedealerwire.com/features/225346

As for me I'll believe it when I see it.

Robert

An update to your update : At the Shot Show it was rumored that the ATFE will no longer require the C.L.E.O. certification on the next edition of forms. Then again, there were other rumors about what Obama may do about the "gun problem" without Congressional approval.