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Story
November 04, 2011, 20:30
First reported on BrevardTimes.com, the Brevard County Sheriff's Office raided a Cape Canaveral business located at 8700 Commerce Street at around 6:00 p.m. yesterday.

Public records show that the business located at this address is that of Jonathan Arthur Ciener, Inc., a company that advertises gun conversion kits on www.22lrconversions.com.

On the Web, there appear to be several consumer complaints about www.22lrconversions.com.

Jonathan Arthur Ciener was arrested and charged with schemes to defraud less than $20,000, which is a third degree felony.

http://news.brevardtimes.com/2011/11/brevard-county-sheriffs-office-raids_04.html

Varangian
November 04, 2011, 22:44
About time.

Maybe this will get his attention.

easttex
November 05, 2011, 01:17
What's the back story here? This dude rip a bunch of people off or something?

BigBoy1
November 05, 2011, 05:23
Ceiner has a very bad reputation for not backing up his products. When his stuff works, it is very good, but if there is a problem, he doesn't stand behind his products. There have been many complaints about his lack of service and refusals to correct problems. Perhaps some one got "pissed-off" enough to press charges.

Story
November 05, 2011, 08:55
Cross threaded
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3232480#post3232480

Dr Shock
November 05, 2011, 17:01
HaHa what a Fn shame....:biggrin: :biggrin:

ByronF
November 06, 2011, 19:57
Yea! Someone shut down a company that provided an option to gun enthusiasts. Great news. A bunch of anti-gunners are celebrating with you.

juanni
November 06, 2011, 20:21
Originally posted by ByronF
Yea! Someone shut down a company that provided an option to gun enthusiasts. Great news. A bunch of anti-gunners are celebrating with you.

Supporting the 2nd Amendment doesn't include excusing gun companies that engage in criminal fraud.




............juanni

ByronF
November 07, 2011, 05:36
Obama's Consumer Protection Czar will make it right. That's easier than being an informed consumer.

juanni
November 07, 2011, 08:35
Originally posted by ByronF
Obama's Consumer Protection Czar will make it right. That's easier than being an informed consumer.

It is the govt's responsibility to enforce crimes like fraud.

From Ciener's reputation, he has doing it for some time.

You seem to want to steer it to a victory for anti gunners and now some political hay against Obama, when it was just theft, by a individual that happens to be in the gun business. :rolleyes:

So being a thief is OK, so long as they are in the gun business?





.............juanni

JasonB
November 07, 2011, 18:42
Originally posted by ByronF
Yea! Someone shut down a company that provided an option to gun enthusiasts. Great news. A bunch of anti-gunners are celebrating with you.


Have you ever had dealings with him?

JasonB
November 07, 2011, 18:49
Originally posted by ByronF
Obama's Consumer Protection Czar will make it right. That's easier than being an informed consumer.

What does the Brevard County Sheriff's Office have to do with Obama exactly?

Whether he was legit or not, someone once opined "Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities."

Stealing from others is a form of causing injury to them. Are you saying you are ok with people stealing?

We aren't talking about someone who was manufacturing MG-42's and selling them out of the trunk of his car sans paperwork because he was patriotic and wanted everyone to be well equipped for a SHTF situation.

Basically, how things worked was you would contact his company about the adapter not working properly, they would conclude you were not doing {Insert A} properly and would give a suggestion on something (ammo, parts of the main firearm, your cereal, boot choice,anything but the adapter kit) at your expense. When that was tried and failed, the repeat call would be you were doing {Insert B} wrong and that would be followed with advice on what to try next at your expense.

One of the best sent my way was claiming the problem was a Bushmaster lower back in the late 1990s and the fix was buying a Colt hammer/trigger/disconnector which was interesting advice considering the time frame.

Also, you would be warned that following the advice on a particular website of disassembling and polishing the kit would void the warrranty, which when one figured out there effectively was no warranty and said to hell with it and followed the website instructions the kits function would improve somewhat.

Interestingly enough, I bought one of the very early Black Dog mags and found it would not function correctly in the Ceiner kit. Contacting them I was told the mag was out of production and I could likely fix it myself by filing down the feed lips slightly or I could send it back to receive one of their newer models and the return was cool even if I hacked on it per their instructions and it worked or not after. Got it working based on their info and even got mine and someone else's Ceiner mags to working properly by following the same advice.

ByronF
November 07, 2011, 20:04
Originally posted by JasonB



Have you ever had dealings with him?

Nope. Was responsible enough to find out for myself that there were better options.

Is it fraud to sell a product that doesn't work all that well then not give good customer service? Do you suppose a police department is preparing to raid the manufacturer of the baby food grinder my wife bought? I'm plenty pissed off about it, which is apparently what passes for criminal fraud.

Are you saying that a customer's willful, albiet misguided decision to exchange money for his crappy conversion kit is theft? That it's "harm" rising to the original intent of the constitution? Do you REALLY believe that?

There's either more to the story than has been revealed here, or it's BS. He might be a turd, he might sell crappy conversion kits, but that's not illegal for now. It IS, however, a business model that is headed toward bankrupcy if people are willing to do even a small amount of research. In the time it took to type this message one could have learned all they'd need to know about conversion kits to NOT choose a Ciener.

JasonB
November 07, 2011, 20:23
Originally posted by ByronF


Nope. Was responsible enough to find out for myself that there were better options.

Is it fraud to sell a product that doesn't work all that well then not give good customer service? Do you suppose a police department is preparing to raid the manufacturer of the baby food grinder my wife bought? I'm plenty pissed off about it, which is apparently what passes for criminal fraud.

Are you saying that a customer's willful, albiet misguided decision to exchange money for his crappy conversion kit is theft? That it's "harm" rising to the original intent of the constitution? Do you REALLY believe that?

There's either more to the story than has been revealed here, or it's BS. He might be a turd, he might sell crappy conversion kits, but that's not illegal for now. It IS, however, a business model that is headed toward bankrupcy if people are willing to do even a small amount of research. In the time it took to type this message one could have learned all they'd need to know about conversion kits to NOT choose a Ciener.

So you pay for goods and services expecting to not get what was advertised? Well that is really odd. Start cutting the checks, I am sure there are plenty around here who appreciate your mindset.

Conservatives really do worship the god business. Basically someone should be free to make claims about products/services and fail to deliver what they promise until word of mouth gets around instead of treating the thief as a thief simply because they have a store front.

juanni
November 07, 2011, 20:26
Originally posted by ByronF

Is it fraud to sell a product that doesn't work all that well then not give good customer service?

Yes, because he represented that his conversions worked.


From his website...
They allow semi-auto .22LR fire in semi-auto firearms and select-fire operation in select-fire firearms.

But many of them didn't work, and then he refused to do anything about it.
He misrepresented his products.

Would it be OK with you if many of his customers paid with a bogus MO?
You know because Jonathan should know better.

You also seem to think that consumers only should regulate the marketplace.

But that is exactly why we have fraud laws, so every time you purchase something you don't have to worry about being ripped off, research everything and commerce comes to a screeching halt.


............juanni

BigBoy1
November 08, 2011, 08:19
Here is a link which explains a lot.

www.donotbuyciener22lrconversions.org

Sig220
November 08, 2011, 09:04
I bought my ceiner AR conversion years ago........before the internet was useful............at a gunshow. If I remember correctly for a tad less then $100.

The idea/concept was novel, the workmanship was pretty cheap......then.

It wouldn't allow the dust cover to be closed and it sometimes would bind on the recoil action.

The dremel was the tool of choice.......the dustcover clearance was fixed and the rails polished to where the dust cover closed and the recoil action was smooth.

It still works in all my AR rifles.....

Some people/companies make broad, borderline claims for their products. I weigh the risk associated with the funds expended and make the decision to purchase or not.

There are a bunch of products that don't work as advertised, that does not mean they are all fraudulent.

If you don't like the fact that a company charges a minimum shipping charge on all orders.......don't order a small spring and then complain about the shipping charge. If you don't see a way to communicate with a seller on the internet, you don't purchase and then complain about the lack of communication contacts. ETC, etc..........

I don't have a clue as to if/why Ceiner/JAC was raided or by who. Everyone being accused should have their day in court.

juanni
November 08, 2011, 10:51
Originally posted by Sig220
Some people/companies make broad, borderline claims for their products.

No it doesn't, but when those people/companies refuse to either refund or repair their products that they know do not meet their advertised claims, then it becomes Criminal Fraud.

Ciener KNEW many of his conversions did not work, but kept on advertising them and selling them.

And what the hell is borderline about selling a non functioning conversion?

Ciener had lots of complaints, I suspect the critical mass of complaints was achieved so that investigators finally took action.




.............juanni

Elmer G FuD
November 08, 2011, 14:20
Originally posted by BigBoy1
Ceiner has a very bad reputation for not backing up his products. When his stuff works, it is very good, but if there is a problem, he doesn't stand behind his products. There have been many complaints about his lack of service and refusals to correct problems. Perhaps some one got "pissed-off" enough to press charges.

This begs the question, when is Entreprise gonna get raided:confused:

Sig220
November 08, 2011, 14:54
Originally posted by juanni


No it doesn't, but when those people/companies refuse to either refund or repair their products that they know do not meet their advertised claims, then it becomes Criminal Fraud.

Ciener KNEW many of his conversions did not work, but kept on advertising them and selling them.

And what the hell is borderline about selling a non functioning conversion?

Ciener had lots of complaints, I suspect the critical mass of complaints was achieved so that investigators finally took action.




.............juanni

You are frothing at the keyboard so much your reply is not clear as to what you are replying to.....

Take a unrelated product........say one of the cleaners intentionally misspelled as OxyClean. They show it on TV taking up all kinds of stains does it remove all stains?? NO While a good product its not the end all and yet no one seems to take them to court for fraud which has a definition of......(from Wiki)

"In criminal law, a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual; the related adjective is fraudulent. The specific legal definition varies by legal jurisdiction. Fraud is a crime, and also a civil law violation. Defrauding people or entities of money or valuables is a common purpose of fraud, but there have also been fraudulent "discoveries", e.g., in science, to gain prestige rather than immediate monetary gain. "

I have a conversion kit that works (with some mods) while yours may not due to manufacturing/production differences in the host weapon or your lack of skills.....but your experience does not make it across the board fraud. IMHO, if he advertised a product and did not deliver the product it is fraud if it performs less then someone's inflated expectations......not so much.

You jump to conclusions really fast when they suit your agenda. While I prefer to wait and see what is there when the wheat is separated from the chaff.

JasonB
November 08, 2011, 17:03
Originally posted by Sig220
I bought my ceiner AR conversion years ago........before the internet was useful............at a gunshow. If I remember correctly for a tad less then $100.

The idea/concept was novel, the workmanship was pretty cheap......then.

It wouldn't allow the dust cover to be closed and it sometimes would bind on the recoil action.

The dremel was the tool of choice.......the dustcover clearance was fixed and the rails polished to where the dust cover closed and the recoil action was smooth.

It still works in all my AR rifles.....

Some people/companies make broad, borderline claims for their products. I weigh the risk associated with the funds expended and make the decision to purchase or not.

There are a bunch of products that don't work as advertised, that does not mean they are all fraudulent.

If you don't like the fact that a company charges a minimum shipping charge on all orders.......don't order a small spring and then complain about the shipping charge. If you don't see a way to communicate with a seller on the internet, you don't purchase and then complain about the lack of communication contacts. ETC, etc..........

I don't have a clue as to if/why Ceiner/JAC was raided or by who. Everyone being accused should have their day in court.

To get your response down to one sentence, the conversion unit you received did not work as advertised.

Sig220
November 08, 2011, 17:12
Originally posted by JasonB


To get your response down to one sentence, the conversion unit you received did not work as advertised.

Oh goody, you are going to edit my post? :uhoh:

Ain't got much to do.................do you?:rolleyes:

Just because it needed some modification does not mean it did not work........it just didn't work as well as I thought it should and fraud would be the last thing I would call it. If you don't like your JAC conversion, put it for sale........it will.

Varangian
November 08, 2011, 23:02
Originally posted by Sig220

Just because it needed some modification does not mean it did not work

Ummm....yeah, it kinda does. Or it wouldn't have "needed" modification.

So, what's your definition of a "working product" that would avoid his having defrauded you? Sounds like you'd be happy buying an advertised "lower receiver, ready to assemble" and getting an 80% receiver. I mean, it just needs a little modification to get it to work, right? Or, with your mad skillz, you'd gladly accept an aluminum billet.

There comes a point where sending out defective product becomes fraud. Jonny-boy more than meets that IMO. Maybe he can make himself a set of steel panties before he goes up the river....

Sig220
November 08, 2011, 23:35
Originally posted by Varangian


Ummm....yeah, it kinda does. Or it wouldn't have "needed" modification.

So, what's your definition of a "working product" that would avoid his having defrauded you? Sounds like you'd be happy buying an advertised "lower receiver, ready to assemble" and getting an 80% receiver. I mean, it just needs a little modification to get it to work, right? Or, with your mad skillz, you'd gladly accept an aluminum billet.

There comes a point where sending out defective product becomes fraud. Jonny-boy more than meets that IMO. Maybe he can make himself a set of steel panties before he goes up the river....

Wow, one thread you are on and another your off............read my post....I said it did not work to MY satisfaction......I wanted the dust cover to close.....not part of the function is it?? The other part was it sometimes seemed to bind in recoil not that it didn't function, but I wanted it a little slicker. I fixed it to my satisfaction, rather then run around throwing a whiny fit and yelling fraud which seems to be so........."today". YMMV

:rofl:

JasonB
November 09, 2011, 19:17
The last time I checked a dust cover that is allowed to close and is then opened by the bolt is part of the function of an M16 type rifle so equipped.

If it was so great, why didn't you modify the rifle instead? You are aware that the second you did anything to it you negated the warranty. Not that there ever was one, but just to add insult to injury.

bottomshot
November 09, 2011, 20:58
I suppose that I had angels watching over me when I bought two of Ceiner's conversion units, one for a Ruger AC556K and the other an M-16. The three shot burst function didn't always seem to work on the AC so I wrote a note to JAC, explaining what was happening. He responded in writing and told me exactly what was happening and what I needed to do for the unit to function the way that it should. I did what he suggested(the problem was on my end, not with the unit) and have never had a problem or malfunction with the unit since. The M-16 unit has operated perfectly from date of installation.
So do I join in with those of you who think JAC is the devil on earth? Or do I think that he can be abrasive, obnoxious and a jerk who's business practices could be improved? Count me in for the latter.


One thing that was noticeable in the article.....it seems like every unit mentioned was for a Glock. Very strange, considering the diferent units that he makes.

JasonB
November 09, 2011, 21:08
Originally posted by bottomshot
I suppose that I had angels watching over me when I bought two of Ceiner's conversion units, one for a Ruger AC556K and the other an M-16. The three shot burst function didn't always seem to work on the AC so I wrote a note to JAC, explaining what was happening. He responded in writing and told me exactly what was happening and what I needed to do for the unit to function the way that it should. I did what he suggested(the problem was on my end, not with the unit) and have never had a problem or malfunction with the unit since. The M-16 unit has operated perfectly from date of installation.
So do I join in with those of you who think JAC is the devil on earth? Or do I think that he can be abrasive, obnoxious and a jerk who's business practices could be improved? Count me in for the latter.

So what was the problem on your end?

Good that it worked for you, every suggestion that was sent my way via him or his company did not do the trick. Modifying the kit per a 3rd party website instructions (which he warned me about as not only voiding the *ahem* warranty but also guaranteeing it would not work again) did improve the function somewhat. Interesting that that was his first defense that I had screwed with it considering (once I found the site he was berating) the instructions were primarily about sanding all the finish off the rails and mine still had the phosphating completely intact while he was standing there holding it.

I could care less if he was the devil, abrasive, obnoxious, or a jerk. That his kits frequently do not work and he will not fix them when that occurs is the problem.

Sig220
November 09, 2011, 22:36
Originally posted by JasonB
The last time I checked a dust cover that is allowed to close and is then opened by the bolt is part of the function of an M16 type rifle so equipped.

If it was so great, why didn't you modify the rifle instead? You are aware that the second you did anything to it you negated the warranty. Not that there ever was one, but just to add insult to injury.

Yep, I could have taken off the dust cover..........and throw a whiny fit......just seemed like more work to do that, then it was worth. :)

Warranty.........what warranty.........I have got way more out of it then I paid for it. Every additional day it shoots is just money in my pocket. :)

Put yours up in the market place.....(at the right price) it will sell and you can quit complaining!! :)

JasonB
November 10, 2011, 05:36
Originally posted by Sig220


Yep, I could have taken off the dust cover..........and throw a whiny fit......just seemed like more work to do that, then it was worth. :)

Warranty.........what warranty.........I have got way more out of it then I paid for it. Every additional day it shoots is just money in my pocket. :)

Put yours up in the market place.....(at the right price) it will sell and you can quit complaining!! :)

But why would you have taken the dust cover off in the first place since that is a functioning part of the rifle and the kit?

The warranty that is mentioned with each kit, but doesn't exist beyond that point would be the warranty.

If he does get convicted and sent up are you several of you going to sign up for conjugal visits with him since you are in favor of him ******* people?

Sig220
November 10, 2011, 08:32
Originally posted by JasonB


But why would you have taken the dust cover off in the first place since that is a functioning part of the rifle and the kit?

The warranty that is mentioned with each kit, but doesn't exist beyond that point would be the warranty.

If he does get convicted and sent up are you several of you going to sign up for conjugal visits with him since you are in favor of him ******* people?



WTF is wrong with you jason? Your sentences don't make sense and your replies don't follow their intended post. Maybe you should give Dave a conjugal visit?? Then again, that is where you probably are doing now. Don't get any on the keyboard........disgusting.

The dust cover is not part of the kit......why would I take it off?? Even if I did or didn't, the kit would still shoot and function. Some people don't even install a dust cover on their rifles.......as they don't see the need.

Didn't expect warranty, as I bought it at a gun show......no more then I expect a ceramic knife to be covered by a warranty from a gun show. That I didn't show up and throw a whiny fit about it with you must be a fraud.

You seem to think the only one that entitled to a opinion is you.......wake up in a new world every day do you??

:rofl:

Eric Bryant
November 10, 2011, 11:46
I am always amazed at the lengths consumers will go in order to convince themselves and the world that they did not receive a crappy product. "Yeah, well, I had to whittle on it a bit, and occasionally it still doesn't work as claimed, and the manufacturer won't respond to my complaints - but you shouldn't say anything bad about them!!!". Yeah, whatever :rolleyes: Crappy products and crappy service deserve to be punished, and if the force of law is required to protect the rights of the individual (fraud being a violation of my property rights), them I'm all for it.

Disclaimer - I own a Ciener 1911 22LR conversion kit (purchased many years ago), and am quite happy with it. Just because mine works does not mean that everyone else has invalid complaints.

Sig220
November 10, 2011, 14:17
Originally posted by Eric Bryant
I am always amazed at the lengths consumers will go in order to convince themselves and the world that they did not receive a crappy product. "Yeah, well, I had to whittle on it a bit, and occasionally it still doesn't work as claimed, and the manufacturer won't respond to my complaints - but you shouldn't say anything bad about them!!!". Yeah, whatever :rolleyes: Crappy products and crappy service deserve to be punished, and if the force of law is required to protect the rights of the individual (fraud being a violation of my property rights), them I'm all for it.

Disclaimer - I own a Ciener 1911 22LR conversion kit (purchased many years ago), and am quite happy with it. Just because mine works does not mean that everyone else has invalid complaints.

It amazes me that people will go to all kinds of lengths to convince anyone with a different opinion that they are wrong. Like the world is not big enough for more then one opinion. :rolleyes: :rofl:

In my case, I looked at the product figured as simple as it was it was worth my money. Modified it to work to my satisfaction and never thought of complaining as it is just not that big of a deal.

Some people will send toast back if it is slightly "overdone" like that is a big deal.

If consumers would not buy crappy products from crappy service providers they will go out of business. The usual reason they do make the purchase is because of price (greed) and then they want to throw a whiny fit because their $9.95 widget did not perform like a $99.95 widget.

If someone has pursued a case against JAC at least a trial will expose the particulars and both parties rights will be aired. Then we can see what the details are.

Come on jason........where is your WTS ad?? :)

JasonB
November 10, 2011, 16:13
Originally posted by Sig220




The dust cover is not part of the kit......why would I take it off?? Even if I did or didn't, the kit would still shoot and function. Some people don't even install a dust cover on their rifles.......as they don't see the need.




http://www.22lrconversions.com/atch-instruction.htm

"The conversion bolt will activate the dust cover as the OEM bolt does."

Gee, I don't know where I was getting the crazy idea the dust cover should function normally.

Now what is wrong with you? Tell you what, don't bother answering considering we have seen you going to bat for those who commit fraud and you are encouraging me to pass a lemon off on someone else. That kind of crap really needs to be stickied to your name in case you attempt to sell something on here.

Sig220
November 10, 2011, 17:29
Originally posted by JasonB


http://www.22lrconversions.com/atch-instruction.htm

"The conversion bolt will activate the dust cover as the OEM bolt does."

Gee, I don't know where I was getting the crazy idea the dust cover should function normally.

Now what is wrong with you? Tell you what, don't bother answering considering we have seen you going to bat for those who commit fraud and you are encouraging me to pass a lemon off on someone else. That kind of crap really needs to be stickied to your name in case you attempt to sell something on here.

jason you are one of the most fuked up POS I have encountered on the internet.

Are you trying to threaten me?? Really?? You don't have the guts.


Go ahead and add to my marketplace rating you gutless wonder. While you are there you will see ALL positive reviews....over 100 of them. Maybe that will get you banned like it has on other forums.

The only suspect window licker posting on this thread is you. :uhoh:

JasonB
November 10, 2011, 17:42
Funny, that the pro-Ceiner bunch is expounding on the evils of fraud prosecution and while claiming the answer is fully informed consumers they are simultaneously pissed off that anyone would mention the problems inherent to the company thereby hoping to keep those same consumers in the dark.

JasonB
November 10, 2011, 17:54
Originally posted by Sig220


jason you are one of the most fuked up POS I have encountered on the internet.

Are you trying to threaten me?? Really?? You don't have the guts.


Go ahead and add to my marketplace rating you gutless wonder. While you are there you will see ALL positive reviews....over 100 of them. Maybe that will get you banned like it has on other forums.

The only suspect window licker posting on this thread is you. :uhoh:

1) I pointed out that Ceiner claims his conversion makes the dust cover function as normal which you have tried to blow off.

2) The fact you are fine with a product that does not work and you wish for others to get saddled with the same indicates a character flaw on your part.

3) You are encouraging me to pass on a defective product to others which is also a character flaw on your part.

4) You may or may not have passed on defective items to others, but the simple fact traits as mentioned in #2 & #3 can be seen in a few people in this thread makes one wonder if you haven't screwed someone over and for reason known only to the mindset of those like you they in turn hope you continue to pass on misrepresented items to others. Not saying you have done that or any of the people who have bought off you are like that, but I can't imagine why someone would voice support for those who commit fraud in the first place so quite surprised by your (and others here) behavior.

5) Where did I say anything about giving you a single bad review? Never said it did I? See that would be lying, much like committing fraud. Now ask me if I think your name should have "supports those who commit fraud" under it instead of "What??? Whatever..." with a link to this thread and we have a different story.

Why did you feel the need to lie about that anyway?

6) Now, what forum have I been banned on? You should be able to tell us right? Link please.

Sig220
November 10, 2011, 20:25
Originally posted by JasonB


1) I pointed out that Ceiner claims his conversion makes the dust cover function as normal which you have tried to blow off.

You never pointed that out until I said that was what I experienced with my kit many, many years ago. If that is the problem you have, then say so.....are you just whining to whine?



Originally posted by JasonB
2) The fact you are fine with a product that does not work and you wish for others to get saddled with the same indicates a character flaw on your part.

You are a loser who can't read. I never have wished defective products on anyone, I just stated that the experience with the product are not a big deal to me. You just have a problem with different opinions that you need to get over, your internet bullying is not working here.
Originally posted by JasonB
3) You are encouraging me to pass on a defective product to others which is also a character flaw on your part.

You really sound WHINY there, maybe work on your character will help? Of course a WTS would be under full disclosure of your failures with it. But with your internet blowhardness, you might not even have one. Do you?

Originally posted by JasonB
4) You may or may not have passed on defective items to others, but the simple fact traits as mentioned in #2 & #3 can be seen in a few people in this thread makes one wonder if you haven't screwed someone over and for reason known only to the mindset of those like you they in turn hope you continue to pass on misrepresented items to others. Not saying you have done that or any of the people who have bought off you are like that, but I can't imagine why someone would voice support for those who commit fraud in the first place so quite surprised by your (and others here) behavior.

Another whiny, run on sentence that means??? Are you trying to say something or are you going to beat around the bush with your BS innuendos? The only character that is flawed in the thread and showing their ass is you. Still without guts or maybe brains?
Originally posted by JasonB
5) Where did I say anything about giving you a single bad review? Never said it did I? See that would be lying, much like committing fraud. Now ask me if I think your name should have "supports those who commit fraud" under it instead of "What??? Whatever..." with a link to this thread and we have a different story.
Why did you feel the need to lie about that anyway?

Everyone can read what you posted. You just don't have the guts to back it up......... you posted, "That kind of crap really needs to be stickied to your name in case you attempt to sell something on here. " So just how would you have "stickied" me?? Did you think YOU could change anything that is controllable under my "user cp"? Again, just hot air, a big mouth and no guts. A misquoting, misconstruing sniveling coward is about the best description of you. Of course that is being polite.

Give the readers the link where I stated that I support those who commit fraud?? Without resorting to misquoting or misconstruing
a post.


Originally posted by JasonB
6) Now, what forum have I been banned on? You should be able to tell us right? Link please.
I will let you tell everyone or are you going to lie about it?? Again, you have a problem with anyone whose opinion differs from you. I have never stated the conversion kits are problem free and still don't think they approach the level of fraud. A ruling by a appropriate court may change that but not anything posted by you.

Sig220
November 10, 2011, 21:47
By the way.........the "affidavit" (7 pages) in support of the arrest warrant is posted at the link previously listed

http://news.brevardtimes.com/2011/11/brevard-county-sheriffs-office-raids_04.html

No part of the affidavit addresses the design or performance of a conversion kit. NONE.

Each interested reader can read what the affidavit for what it does address.

The first court date is early December.

bottomshot
November 10, 2011, 22:40
Originally posted by JasonB

So what was the problem on your end?


Problem was that I wasn't holding the trigger doen until 3 rounds had fired, instead I was just pulling the trigger once and expecting that to let it fire all 3 times. The kit was working correctly, I wasn't. But the fact that JAC wrote back and explained what was going on seems to show a different person than the one that some of you are demonizing.

JasonB
November 10, 2011, 22:44
Originally posted by Sig220


You never pointed that out until I said that was what I experienced with my kit many, many years ago. If that is the problem you have, then say so.....are you just whining to whine?


I just kept letting you go on and on with your crap before I posted Ceiner's own words on how the trap door was supposed to work.




You are a loser who can't read. I never have wished defective products on anyone, I just stated that the experience with the product are not a big deal to me. You just have a problem with different opinions that you need to get over, your internet bullying is not working here.

You are repeatedly voicing support for someone who sells defective products (including the one you received) and who doesn't stand behind their product and bitching at anyone who wasn't happy with it.


You really sound WHINY there, maybe work on your character will help? Of course a WTS would be under full disclosure of your failures with it. But with your internet blowhardness, you might not even have one. Do you?

I didn't manufacture it so how is not working my fault?



Everyone can read what you posted. You just don't have the guts to back it up......... you posted, "That kind of crap really needs to be stickied to your name in case you attempt to sell something on here. " So just how would you have "stickied" me?? Did you think YOU could change anything that is controllable under my "user cp"? Again, just hot air, a big mouth and no guts. A misquoting, misconstruing sniveling coward is about the best description of you. Of course that is being polite.

Give the readers the link where I stated that I support those who commit fraud?? Without resorting to misquoting or misconstruing
a post.

I jus told how you should be stickied, considering I am not a mod I do not have access to your account to do so. Would be nice if that was the case so anyone about to deal with you could see that you support fraud via your support for Ceiner in this thread.


I will let you tell everyone or are you going to lie about it?? Again, you have a problem with anyone whose opinion differs from you. I have never stated the conversion kits are problem free and still don't think they approach the level of fraud. A ruling by a appropriate court may change that but not anything posted by you.

You brought it up. Link to it.

Well no shit they aren't problem free. They sure aren't advertised as being trouble plagued though are they? About the only thing true in the ads is the address and the fact it will save money when shooting between the lower cost of .22LR and dealing with malfunctions.

JasonB
November 10, 2011, 22:52
Originally posted by Sig220

No part of the affidavit addresses the design or performance of a conversion kit. NONE.



If you haven't been paying attention, the primary gripe here centers around the performance of the manufacturer. Things happen, things break long before they should, things fail to work right out of the box no matter how many pains have been taken to make sure that isn't the case, but when any of those things happen and the manufacturer blows off the customer every time there is a problem.

Sounds like a real great guy you have been going to bat for there too by the way.

JasonB
November 10, 2011, 22:55
Originally posted by bottomshot


Problem was that I wasn't holding the trigger doen until 3 rounds had fired, instead I was just pulling the trigger once and expecting that to let it fire all 3 times. The kit was working correctly, I wasn't. But the fact that JAC wrote back and explained what was going on seems to show a different person than the one that some of you are demonizing.

It isn't surprising at all, he came up with solution that placed the blame on you which in yoru case happened to be correct. Had the problem been with the kit you would have still been at fault.

jaykden
November 11, 2011, 01:11
take it somewhere else, the NFA forum is not the place.