But..but..they're green...

[RG Coburn]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101122/ap_on_hi_te/us_electric_cars%3B_ylt%3DAjdR4hlOhYCDBHCeyNzXivis 0NUE%3B_ylu%3DX3oDMTFlOGNoMW91BHBvcwM5OARzZWMDYWNj b3JkaW9uX2J1c2luZXNzBHNsawN1dGlsaXRpZXN0aHI-

"Plugged into a socket, an electric car can draw as much power as a small house."

What a bunch of saps. Green cars.Geez...

[SWOHFAL]

Link's dead.


Did you hear about Neal Young's hybrid starting his storage warehouse on fire? :rofl:

[homelandprotector]

It's ok, most power plants burn coal........thats green right?

[bykerhd]

Your link doesn't seem to work.
But, I know the idea that you will be welcome to just plug your electric vehicle in to your friend's houses, shopping malls, anywhere you happen to stop, without charge, and without creating other issues on the electrical grids is naive, at best.:rolleyes:
Someone has to pay and the power has to be produced somewhere, somehow.

I've heard the utilities are planning parking stands that you would plug in to and swipe your credit card to pay for whatever the power will cost you.
It MIGHT be more than you think to be GREEN.:wink:

[Aifwikir]

When Electric cars will go 500 miles per charge and re-charge in the same time as a stop for gasoline, come talk to me ,,, until then you can keep those pieces-o-S#!t ! Green my But. I can't see a 1500 mile trip taking 3 days to complete.

:D
Aif

[Heat]

Thats why we need to go bio-diesel, bio gas..algae oil!

[RG Coburn]

I see no reason why a guy could not simple designate a quality small diesel generator to these cars.It would be permanant to the vehicle,married so to speak. It would run 24/7 or whenever you demanded it,and would still get reasonable fuel economy.I would think two gallons of diesel per day would recharge the vehicle.Why would this not work?

[Nick H.]

RG, you are describing a hybrid. The amount of energy used by an electric car or any other car is much larger than can be produced by a couple gallons of petroleum a day. There is no fundamental reason why a hybrid should get better mileage than a conventional car except for the regenerative braking in stop and go conditions. On a long steady highway trip an internal combustion engine hooked solid to the transmission is going to beat a hybrid.

Diesel does sound like the way to go, but I don't know if it should be a hybrid or just a plain old diesel car.

[Eric Bryant]

Originally posted by Nick H.
There is no fundamental reason why a hybrid should get better mileage than a conventional car except for the regenerative braking in stop and go conditions.

Do explain - this dumbass automotive engineer is operating under a different set of assumptions than you are.

[308bolt]

Originally posted by Heat
Thats why we need to go bio-diesel, bio gas..algae oil!

Methane.
We seem to have an overabundance anyway.

[Ricketts]

Originally posted by Eric Bryant


Do explain - this dumbass automotive engineer is operating under a different set of assumptions than you are.

Explain one to me if you would.

Why can't a charging device, kind of like the old ones that used to rub against the tire of my bicycle for my bike lights-- be used to charge the batteries of one of these while it is running? The load would then be in starting and stopping, and the thing would simply charge itself while it rolled down the road.

Naturally, it wouldn't rub on the tire but it could off a belt or drive axle. I generated electricity off a hub on my grinders at the plant. It didn't make much but it made fixtures run.

[Hole_Puncher]

Maybe we should develop cars that run on Hot Air. We could lay piplines running out of Washington to all parts of the country. The stuff would be green and there would be an unlimited supply of it.

[Nick H.]

Eric.... The conventional car works like this:

Convert petroleum to mechanical energy. Apply that to a gear train which drives the wheels.


The hybrid works like this:

Convert petroleum to mechanical energy. Convert the mechanical energy to electricity. Store the electricity in a battery. Pull electricity out of the battery. Convert electricity to mechanical energy in an electric motor. Apply the mechanical energy to a gear train which drives the wheels.

The regenerative braking of the hybrid, converting forward momentum back into electricity to be stored rather than turning it into waste heat in the brakes can be a significant advantage in stop and go driving, but on the highway, my bet is on the conventional car.

Ricketts, the energy required to turn a generator of any kind will always exceed the energy you get back out of it. You can't attach a generator on the side of an electric motor and get enough energy to run the electric motor.

[Ricketts]

Originally posted by Nick H.


Ricketts, the energy required to turn a generator of any kind will always exceed the energy you get back out of it. You can't attach a generator on the side of an electric motor and get enough energy to run the electric motor.

Is this due to limitations of technology?? I don't know this stuff--I'm a ME and never went into the electrical side.

[M90A1]

The hybrid works like this:

Convert petroleum to mechanical energy. Convert the mechanical energy to electricity. Store the electricity in a battery. Pull electricity out of the battery. Convert electricity to mechanical energy in an electric motor. Apply the mechanical energy to a gear train which drives the wheels.

The regenerative braking of the hybrid, converting forward momentum back into electricity to be stored rather than turning it into waste heat in the brakes can be a significant advantage in stop and go driving, but on the highway, my bet is on the conventional car.[/B]

You're missin' something. I don't know of any conventional car that would get the 47 mpg that my wife's Prius got on a recent trip from Tucson to Phoenix, which was mostly interstate driving @ 80 mph.

[Eric Bryant]

Originally posted by Ricketts
Why can't a charging device, kind of like the old ones that used to rub against the tire of my bicycle for my bike lights-- be used to charge the batteries of one of these while it is running? The load would then be in starting and stopping, and the thing would simply charge itself while it rolled down the road.


It's indeed possible to drive one set of wheels with a traditional internal-combustion engine (ICE), and drive the opposite end with one or more electric motors. An arrangement such as this is referred to as a "through-the-road parallel hybrid". Chrysler showed off this technology maybe a decade ago (I seem to recall it was in the form of a Dodge Durango), and I believe that Bosch and Getrag have shown a rear-drive module for use in this type of hybrid.

Not only is it possible to perform regenerative braking in stop-and-go driving, but the electric motor can be used to generate a larger load on the ICE during driving conditions when the ICE isn't loaded enough to perform efficiently (the stored electricity could then be used to provide supplimental power during certain high-load conditions where the ICE is also inefficient - particularly at low driving speeds such as launching from a dead stop). As a side benefit, such an arrangement also allows for all-wheel-drive in most modes of operation.


Nick -

I would recommend not pursuing your argument much further unless you can explain, in detail, how the efficiency of an ICE and an electric motor varies with speed and load, and how different drivetrain architectures employ those characteristics to varying effects.

Your statement about the relative highway efficiency is correct only in certain situations and with certain vehicles. For example, the Toyota Prius does indeed trade some high-speed efficiency in favor of low-speed efficiency and cost considerations, but the same is not true of certain other architectures (the simple Honda IMA and the highly-complex GM Two Mode being two examples at opposite ends of the technology spectrum). Generally speaking, the benefits of hybridization do indeed decrease at higher speeds where irrecoverable losses (primarily aerodynamic drag and various forms of friction) dominate the recoverable losses (stored kinetic energy).

[Eric Bryant]

Originally posted by Ricketts
Is this due to limitations of technology?? I don't know this stuff--I'm a ME and never went into the electrical side.

A modern permanent-magnet motor/generator is going to be around 92-98% efficient, depending upon the speed and load. There are of course losses (as dictated by that pesky 2nd law of thermodynamics), but they are fairly minimal.

Batteries are also pretty damn good, with the same caveats of load being a factor. The inexpensive lith-ion batteries coming out of China for hobby use are about 90% efficient in charge and roughly 97% efficient in discharge, for a complete conversion-cycle efficiency of around 87.5%.

Big coal powerplants can supposedly operation at 55-60% efficiency, but I think that's bumping up against the theoretical limits.

If we assume 50% efficiency for power generation and transmission, 95% motor efficiency, and 87% battery efficiency, that gives us a "well-to-wheel" number of about 41%. Kinda crappy - but read on.

Internal combustion engines vary widely - idle is of course 0% efficiency, and operation at WOT near the torque peak (yielding minimal pumping losses and maximum combustion efficiency via reasonably high BMEP) might go from 25% efficient (certain low-tech high-performance engines) to 50-55% efficient (really big diesel engines for ships and stationary power). Typical numbers might be in the 15-25% range for normal part-throttle low-speed operation, depending on a huge number of variables.

The lil' ICE in a Prius might be around 35% efficient during typical operation (especially if operating in the Atkinson cycle mode). Interestingly enough, a restrictor-plate NASCAR engine is pretty close in brake specific fuel consumption (lbs of fuel per HP per hour) :rofl: Over-the-road diesel truck engines can go north of 40% (45% was possible prior to the last couple rounds of emission control regs).

[bykerhd]

One downside of the Hybrids is the complexity from having both the IC system and the electrical drive systems. Then there is the issue with battery life and replacement. There is NO free ride.

While I might consider a hybrid brand new with the warranty off the lot, I would probably NOT be interested in a used one.
The company I work for has been running the Prius since they were introduced. They see some pretty serious miles in all kinds of conditions. And, they do break down and have their little "issues". The people that drive them often usually don't have too much nice to say. Neither do our mechanics.

But, you see a lot of them on the road.

[richbug]

Originally posted by M90A1


You're missin' something. I don't know of any conventional car that would get the 47 mpg that my wife's Prius got on a recent trip from Tucson to Phoenix, which was mostly interstate driving @ 80 mph.

VW diesels would do that easily 25 years ago.

[308bolt]

Originally posted by richbug


VW diesels would do that easily 25 years ago.

My wife owned a Honda CRX HF that got fifty-four miles per gallon.
It was accomplished by using a stratified head design.

[Ian Sean]

It's all basic laws of Thermodynamics stuff. Every change of state in energy has a loss. There is no such thing as a 100% efficient system of energy transfer. Electric to Chemical to Heat to Mechanical, whichever way.....all conventional energy transfer has heat and friction loss. Remember, there is no such thing as a perpetual motion engine, we have become close with very little energy input, but as soon as you expect that machine to produce work (hp) it is coming to a stop.

You're missin' something. I don't know of any conventional car that would get the 47 mpg that my wife's Prius got on a recent trip from Tucson to Phoenix

Was the Prius plugged in at any time prior to the trip charging the batteries? Then all bets are off, an outside energy source offset your actual fuel consumption. While the prius does have one hell of an efficient engine tuned to run at a constant speed, it is still suffers from the problem of the limitations of the internal combustion engine. Overall, without massive changes to the grid and power supply, electric cars and hybrids are only a very small part of the cure for a big problem.

VW diesels would do that easily 25 years ago.

I do miss my VW rabbit diesel, 1982, 5 speed manual, took 5 minutes to get to 70 miles an hour but it did get 45 mpg.

[richbug]

Originally posted by Ian Sean




I do miss my VW rabbit diesel, 1982, 5 speed manual, took 5 minutes to get to 70 miles an hour but it did get 45 mpg.

MY uncle had a couple diesel rabbits, I didn't know the rabbit would go that fast.

The Jetta and Golf would do 80+, so long as the windows were up and you weren't driving into the wind.

[Stranger]

Originally posted by Ricketts


Is this due to limitations of technology?? I don't know this stuff--I'm a ME and never went into the electrical side.

Its called the second law of thermodynamics. Perhaps you have heard of it?

[Stranger]

Originally posted by Eric Bryant


A modern permanent-magnet motor/generator is going to be around 92-98% efficient, depending upon the speed and load. There are of course losses (as dictated by that pesky 2nd law of thermodynamics), but they are fairly minimal.

Batteries are also pretty damn good, with the same caveats of load being a factor. The inexpensive lith-ion batteries coming out of China for hobby use are about 90% efficient in charge and roughly 97% efficient in discharge, for a complete conversion-cycle efficiency of around 87.5%.

Big coal powerplants can supposedly operation at 55-60% efficiency, but I think that's bumping up against the theoretical limits.

If we assume 50% efficiency for power generation and transmission, 95% motor efficiency, and 87% battery efficiency, that gives us a "well-to-wheel" number of about 41%. Kinda crappy - but read on.

Internal combustion engines vary widely - idle is of course 0% efficiency, and operation at WOT near the torque peak (yielding minimal pumping losses and maximum combustion efficiency via reasonably high BMEP) might go from 25% efficient (certain low-tech high-performance engines) to 50-55% efficient (really big diesel engines for ships and stationary power). Typical numbers might be in the 15-25% range for normal part-throttle low-speed operation, depending on a huge number of variables.

The lil' ICE in a Prius might be around 35% efficient during typical operation (especially if operating in the Atkinson cycle mode). Interestingly enough, a restrictor-plate NASCAR engine is pretty close in brake specific fuel consumption (lbs of fuel per HP per hour) :rofl: Over-the-road diesel truck engines can go north of 40% (45% was possible prior to the last couple rounds of emission control regs).

+1

Anyone who claims that electric hybrids are going to save the world has no clue.

[Ricketts]

Originally posted by Stranger


Its called the second law of thermodynamics. Perhaps you have heard of it?


I am not familiar. That is why I asked the question. Why, is asking a question about something out of my field wrong nowadays??

[Eric Bryant]

Originally posted by Stranger
Anyone who claims that electric hybrids are going to save the world has no clue.

Save the world? No (for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that there are almost 300 million "regular" vehices in the US). But they will be a viable method of decreasing fossil-fuel usage in the future.

[M90A1]

Originally posted by Ian Sean
Was the Prius plugged in at any time prior to the trip charging the batteries? Then all bets are off, an outside energy source offset your actual fuel consumption. While the prius does have one hell of an efficient engine tuned to run at a constant speed, it is still suffers from the problem of the limitations of the internal combustion engine. Overall, without massive changes to the grid and power supply, electric cars and hybrids are only a very small part of the cure for a big problem.



I do miss my VW rabbit diesel, 1982, 5 speed manual, took 5 minutes to get to 70 miles an hour but it did get 45 mpg.

You don't know a damn thing about a Prius, obviously. They are self-contained, as in never have to be plugged in to anything.

Ah, the VW diesel, smelly, noisy, and a dog. And, diesel is 20-25% more expensive than regular gas. GREAT!!! :rolleyes:

[bykerhd]

The Prius cars that the company I work for has have been converted to "plug-in" to charge the batteries to reduce the fuel usage. We have solar panel arrays at our offices that are supposed to "contribute" significantly ? to the process. I really don't know, or care, how successful the process is. I know we haven't seen the sun up here for a few days.:rolleyes:

[M90A1]

Originally posted by bykerhd
The Prius cars that the company I work for has have been converted to "plug-in" to charge the batteries to reduce the fuel usage. We have solar panel arrays at our offices that are supposed to "contribute" significantly ? to the process. I really don't know, or care, how successful the process is. I know we haven't seen the sun up here for a few days.:rolleyes:

That doesn't make any sense at all, if you know how the Prius system works. The car doesn't run on the batteries until they're depleted, but are kept in a mostly charged state all the time when running. No matter how well they're charged, the car will only run a very short time on batteries only, so it sounds like somebody was sold a bill of goods. In fact, it is very hard to get the car to run solely on the batteries for any length of time, no matter what you do. You have to run the car at a very low speed, with almost no throttle, to keep it on battery only for any extended period, and that period is pretty minimal. Not very practical. Evidently, Toyota has done a poor job of getting the word out on how their cars really work.
My wife has owned hers since 2004, and we've put 75,000 miles on it without any mechanical issues, so I've got a pretty good grip on how they work. It's really an amazing package.

[bykerhd]

I have no idea about how, or even IF the "augmented" ? Prius charging is supposed to actually work. But, the company has converted all the half dozen ? or so Prius cars they operate for plug-ins.
I'm assuming some research was done before the money was spent.
But, maybe not.:rolleyes:
It looks good for the company's "Green" PR anyway.:wink:

[RG Coburn]

The thing with the hybrid is,in order to charge it,AND drive it at the same time requires an engine of X horsepower. Probably in the range of 100-150 HP I would guess. If it is not running,it ain't charging either.My thinking is:Only drive the car on electricity,and charge with the genset,running constantly,but at a lower charge wattage than the hybrid motor charges at. How long can a hybrid go on battery alone? They said the Leaf requires as much power as a small house.Whats that? 5000 watts? 10,000 watts? Thats maybe a 15 horsepower or so motor on a genset.You sacrifice the faster charge time of the larger hybrid engine for the better economy the smaller genset engine gives.
Is it the perfect answer? Probably not.

[bykerhd]

I found this on-line. I don't know whether this is what the company is using, but I assume it is similar.
Prius Plug-In Conversion (http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=834454)

[M90A1]

Originally posted by bykerhd
I found this on-line. I don't know whether this is what the company is using, but I assume it is similar.
Prius Plug-In Conversion (http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=834454)

Now, that makes sense, but a bean counter would have to show me it was worth the expense. I've got my doubts. As you said, maybe more of a PR coup than anything.

[RG Coburn]

I don't get this.How is it getting additional MPG by using the electric motor more?Does the electric motor augment the gasoline motor,thereby stretching perceived mileage? My thinking,MPG only applies when the gas motor is moving the car,not as a combined electric motor/gas motor combination.

[M90A1]

Originally posted by RG Coburn
I don't get this.How is it getting additional MPG by using the electric motor more?Does the electric motor augment the gasoline motor,thereby stretching perceived mileage? My thinking,MPG only applies when the gas motor is moving the car,not as a combined electric motor/gas motor combination.

The mileage is based on the total miles driven and the amount of gas used, just like any other car, except that the car is running on the electric motor alone, or in concert with the engine most of the time, thereby using less gas per mile. In the Prius, the electric motor is considered the primary power source, with the engine augmenting it. There are very few instances when a Prius will be running on the gasoline engine alone. Nobody cares what mileage the engine gets by itself, only the overall useage per mile going down the road. The wife's car can go 600 miles on a 12 gallon tank of gas. That's 50 miles per gallon, no matter what the power source.

[Ricketts]

Originally posted by M90A1


The mileage is based on the total miles driven and the amount of gas used, just like any other car, except that the car is running on the electric motor alone, or in concert with the engine most of the time, thereby using less gas per mile. In the Prius, the electric motor is considered the primary power source, with the engine augmenting it. There are very few instances when a Prius will be running on the gasoline engine alone. Nobody cares what mileage the engine gets by itself, only the overall useage per mile going down the road. The wife's car can go 600 miles on a 12 gallon tank of gas. That's 50 miles per gallon, no matter what the power source.

Very interesting discussion. I'm learning a bunch here.

Question: I follow the logic but there is no such thing as a free lunch. Have you had to replace the batteries or any of the elecrtrical components? And how do the costs of repairs compare to a IC engine car??

[M90A1]

Originally posted by Ricketts


Very interesting discussion. I'm learning a bunch here.

Question: I follow the logic but there is no such thing as a free lunch. Have you had to replace the batteries or any of the elecrtrical components?

Not so far.

And how do the costs of repairs compare to a IC engine car??

No idea, see above.

[richbug]

All you need to know about the Prius, brought to you by the fine folks in South Park...

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s10e02-smug-alert

[starbuck]

The reason they are able to push these is because they would make the cities cleaner in theory, less emissions come from the vehicles themselves, but the pollution is still occurring somewhere in the creation of electricity or hydrogen. I successfully argued this with my thermodynamics teacher. Its unethical and elitist to create central green cities and put the pollution off on poor areas, or 3rd world countries. Plug in cars also make you more Dependant on the grid. In Russia even heat is centralized by piping hot water through the city.

[Eric Bryant]

Several people have brought up pollution from stationary power plants - do they not realize that modern plants (even coal-burners) run really, really clean?

[StarPD]

Ian Sean has it right, as does Stranger.
It's why there is no such thing as a "perpetual motion" machine.

To put is more simply, as Robert Heinlein said: "TANSTAAFL".

[Clownshoes]

Originally posted by Ricketts

I am not familiar. That is why I asked the question. Why, is asking a question about something out of my field wrong nowadays??

Nothing wrong with asking a question but you said you were an ME, did you not have to take Thermo?

[Ricketts]

Originally posted by Clownshoes


Nothing wrong with asking a question but you said you were an ME, did you not have to take Thermo?

32 years ago. I emptied that bucket as I didn't really use it in my career.

[Ian Sean]

You don't know a damn thing about a Prius, obviously. They are self-contained, as in never have to be plugged in to anything.

Some of them can plug in, I guess yours doesn't. I do know a little about them, I looked into them, and do know how they work. The battery runs you up in your slow speeds, then the gas engine takes over. It is very efficient because the gas engine is tuned to run at a constant speed. In a regular car the best efficiency is at highway speeds and you burn the most fuel in stop and go traffic. The Prius negates this. Light car, efficient motor, well tuned drivetrain.

Ah, the VW diesel, smelly, noisy, and a dog. And, diesel is 20-25% more expensive than regular gas. GREAT!!!

I owned mine from 89 to 99, it had over 300,000 miles on it and still ran great. Not to shabby for a basic design VW Rabbit, not much different from my Dad, who had a gasoline Rabbit that got almost 30mpg. It wasn't all that noisy, or smelly for that matter. Sounds like we have made great strides since 1980....or have we?

As far as Diesel cost being more than gasoline that is a fairly recent incarnation. Diesel 10 years ago and before that was always less than gasoline at the pump.

Several people have brought up pollution from stationary power plants - do they not realize that modern plants (even coal-burners) run really, really clean?

Tell me about it, I am sitting in a plant making 500 MW as we speak. Funny you mention pollution. Our power plants have cleaned up so much in just the last 20 years I am still amazed at the emission levels being achieved in coal plants. If someone would have told me 20 years ago that single digit ppm limits for NoX, SoX and Co were possible back then, I would have said you were full of it. Let alone there wasn't even instrumentation that could reliably read emissions that low back then. Kind of makes you wonder (or maybe it doesn't) why all of a sudden CO2 is the new bogeyman....the one product of combustion that can not be controlled.

[M90A1]

Originally posted by Ian Sean


Some of them can plug in, I guess yours doesn't.

Sorry, wrong again. No showroom condition Prius is capable of being plugged into anything. Any one that is so configured has been modified by an after-market company. Toyota doesn't sell a plug-in Prius. There is no need in the standard configuration - it charges itself. There will be some available by 2012, but not now. Only test fleet vehicles are available now, and joe blow can't get one.

[Stranger]

Originally posted by Ricketts



I am not familiar. That is why I asked the question. Why, is asking a question about something out of my field wrong nowadays??

No offense intended. When you said you were an ME I assumed you were schooled thoroughly in thermodynamics. My BIL is a ME and knows it inside out. I apologize if I offended you.

[Stranger]

Originally posted by M90A1


Sorry, wrong again. No showroom condition Prius is capable of being plugged into anything. Any one that is so configured has been modified by an after-market company. Toyota doesn't sell a plug-in Prius. There is no need in the standard configuration - it charges itself. There will be some available by 2012, but not now. Only test fleet vehicles are available now, and joe blow can't get one.

If that is the case then a Prius can only achieve the efficiency of its gasoline motor, which isn't all that efficient at converting chemical (potential) energy into kinetic energy. At best that means the Prius runs at 50-55% efficiency. Take into consideration the amount of energy required to make the batteries and you are cutting down on the efficiency significantly.

BTW, before a deer jumped out in front of it our 3-cyl Geo Metro got 55-60 mpg with city driving. The Prius is a turd in a pretty clothes, but it is still a turd.

[ce]

Well, boy howdy if there ain't a whole passle of smart fellers in this here thread.

And engineers, too.

Shoot, even if I rode a mule I couldn't do no better than when I'm ridin' my scooter. I can go 92 miles on a gallon of gas.

A hunnert an' fifty cubic centiliters of displacement from an engine generatin' over 8 horsepower at 7500 revolutions per minute. Yeah, yer dern tootin' that's some powerful scootin'!

When I'm dartin' through traffic like a mounted cavalier, I look at all the time and money wasted in all those cages, inefficient, cumbersome behemoths hauling nothing but weaklings around on the useless errands of a pointless life.

Buncha Greenqueers too sissified to mount a manly ride, to travel in a manful and masculine way, braving the wind and the elements, the threat of certain death, or the horror of permanent disfigurement.

If yer serious about reducing pollution and arriving in style, just get you a bad ass Chinese motorscooter and ride. Purty soon you'll feel like yer balls are so big, ya gotta walk bowlegged, and when the Harley riders wave to ya, give 'em five to arrive alive.

One cylinder four strokes, that's all you need, besides a helmet and some gloves.

[Ian Sean]

Sorry, wrong again. No showroom condition Prius is capable of being plugged into anything

Whatever, I wasn't specific, last year when we were looking at cars, I checked out all the new stuff, hybrids included. Yeah, a factory prius can't be plugged in, but one modified with aftermarket parts can be. Looking around the internet today it seems to be a pretty popular aftermarket add on.

BTW, before a deer jumped out in front of it our 3-cyl Geo Metro got 55-60 mpg with city driving. The Prius is a turd in a pretty clothes, but it is still a turd.

If you adopted the Geo weight and frame with a prius drivetrain, you might even be able to push the mpg up to 70. That would be about it for 100% gas engine in a car, unless you start talking motorcycles, but that is a whole different ball of wax.

[RG Coburn]

So what does the Prius weigh? The Leaf info says its 3500 lbs. Thats pretty heavy for the physical dimension of the vehicle.
Somehow,I get the funny feeling that no matter what vehicle you drive,they(govt) are going to find some way to tax you,whether a per-gallon or per-mile tax. Any car that suddenly gets double the mileage is now paying only half the road tax. They ain't gonna take a pay cut...
Coal fired powerplants ain't going anywhere for now.Windfarms ain't the answer. The two near me only produce power a fraction of the time,and even when the wind blows,some don't spin for whatever reason.Solar is only good if the sun shines,and even then it doesn't amount to much at all.
I'd be interested to know how far a Prius would go on a gallon of fuel on gas engine only,and then how far one would go if the weight of the electric motors and batteries were eliminated.

[bykerhd]

ce,
I can tell you from personal experience that January & February in the Northeast can get MIGHTY cold and miserable. Riding two wheeled vehicles in such weather is an experience you won't soon forget.
Cold is one thing, snow and ice is quite another. :uhoh:
Been there, done that.:wink:
When I was much, MUCH younger.
Now I climb in my 11 mpg(city-winter) 4 wheel drive truck and thank my lucky stars I have it and do not have to drive on two wheels in such crappy weather anymore.:biggrin:
Besides ce, your scooter doesn't have enough ground clearance for a decent(8 to 12 inches) snowstorm.:tongue:

[Eric Bryant]

Originally posted by RG Coburn
I'd be interested to know how far a Prius would go on a gallon of fuel on gas engine only,and then how far one would go if the weight of the electric motors and batteries were eliminated.

You should write to Toyota with this question - I'm sure their engineers never once thought of the proposed alternative :rolleyes:

It's interesting to compare the performance of two similar vehicles in Toyota's line-up - one being a hybrid, and one having a conventional powertrain:

Toyota Prius - 51 MPG city, 48 MPG highway, 0.60 in 10.4 sec

Toyota Yaris - 29 MPG city, 36 MPG highway, 0-60 in 10.3 sec

I really don't much care for either vehicle (my daily-driver does the 0-60 sprint in less than half the time), but damn, it should be pretty obvious that there are some real benefits to hybrid powertrain technology.

[ce]

Yeah, I can dig it. All the scooter riders from Buffalo to Milwaukee bring their scooters in the house for three months and gripe about the Western and Southern riders riding to the store to get ice for cocktails.

I ride every day unless it's really wet, then I roll in the Land Rover, which is a pain, 'cause I gotta park and walk the rest of the way to get to City Hall where I work. With the scooter, I park at a bicycle rack, or on the sidewalk, or anywhere, pretty much hassle free, right out front.

Whaddaya mean, I can't park here?! Dude, it's a scooter! The Mayor said to go Green and care for the air, and cut down on traffic. and ease congestion downtown, so I'm just doing my part, to stop Global Warming, but if you want to contribute to the devastation of the Earth because of small minded selfish individuals, well, that's on you, man.

Yeah, the Mayor said scooters can park here, and don't give no scooters no tickets either, 'cause they're street legal, check it out, brake lights, turn signals, pretty awesome, no?

So Security ends up watching my scooter for me, too. Nice.

[Ricketts]

Originally posted by Stranger


No offense intended. When you said you were an ME I assumed you were schooled thoroughly in thermodynamics. My BIL is a ME and knows it inside out. I apologize if I offended you.

None taken. No harm, no foul.

I have a heavy plastics background but after being involved in tool / fixture design in that discipline for about 10 years, I went into facilities management and safety & compliance. I vaguely remember some of that but I have not looked at it in over 30 years. You forget stuff if you don't use it.

[easttex]

Originally posted by Heat
Thats why we need to go bio-diesel, bio gas..algae oil!


I'm still hung up on the idea of a wood-gas powered vehicle like what I saw on "Apocalypse PA" the other night. The more I read about gassification, the more the idea intrigues me.

[P.I. Staker]

I owned a 1971 Triumph Spitfire convertible with a 1300cc engine, single Zenith-Stromberg side draft carb. It got 44 mpg hiway with the 4 speed, I know guys that had the electric overdrive who got 50 mpg. This was 1971.

[308bolt]

Originally posted by easttex



I'm still hung up on the idea of a wood-gas powered vehicle like what I saw on "Apocalypse PA" the other night. The more I read about gassification, the more the idea intrigues me.

I think wood gas has some real possibilities.
It's one of my interests also.

[RG Coburn]

Does the Prius,or any electric car have a heater? Is it electric or hotwater/heat exchanger? Does an electric vehicle run for squat when the temperature is around zero,or less?

[Eric Bryant]

Originally posted by RG Coburn
Does the Prius,or any electric car have a heater? Is it electric or hotwater/heat exchanger? Does an electric vehicle run for squat when the temperature is around zero,or less?

The Prius has an internal-combustion engine (ICE), so it has a standard coolant-loop heat exchanger. This system is supplemented by a vacuum-insulated thermal reservoir, which can store a couple gallons of hot coolant for up to 48 hours.

There are three other options for cabin heat of which I am aware:

1) Resistive heater. This obviously has a negative impact on range. I believe this is used in the Nissan Leaf.
2) Catalytic burner. This requires some amount of fossil fuel (a really small amount - about 0.01 gallon/hour for a heavy-truck "no-idle" system). Rumored to be used by a European OEM (won't say who, as I don't know if it's public knowledge).
3) Heat pump (basically running the AC system in reverse). This is also of interest as a battery thermal management technique. I don't know of anyone who is yet using this technique, but it's been the topic of several discussions at conferences.

[M90A1]

Originally posted by RG Coburn
Does the Prius,or any electric car have a heater? Is it electric or hotwater/heat exchanger? Does an electric vehicle run for squat when the temperature is around zero,or less?

Nope, no heater in a Prius. That's why they're only sold in the desert SW. :rolleyes: Strange thing is, contrary to a conventional car, the Prius gets better mileage when the A/C runs than when using the heater. The A/C compressor is electric, so causes no parasitic draw on engine power, but the heater, working with hot water, keeps the engine running more than usual to keep the water temp up.

Doesn't get to zero where I live in the AZ desert, but the cars are sold in Maine and Alaska too, so. Don't think owners would be too happy if the car didn't work where they lived.

You need to spend a couple hours at your local Toyota dealership and ask some questions. It may not be rocket science, but there's some pretty cool technology in the Prius. And, the technology of the car is only limited by the state of the art in batteries.