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View Full Version : Some damn good advice


gates
November 01, 2010, 12:32
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL0y5CXyITk&feature=player_embedded#!

Nick H.
November 01, 2010, 14:28
It may very well be good advice for people in that predicament, BUT I still maintain that individuals need to be held accountable. There are many people out there (and most likely some on this board) who bought homes they couldn't afford, believing prices would keep rising and it would all work out.

Once the bubble burst, it became obvious they had made a huge mistake. To those of us who have lived within our means, it was obvious it was a huge mistake all along and I refused to participate. Both the banksters and the individual homeowners had a part in this. Now, the politicians have forced the rest of us to bail out the banksters and I must agree the best thing for many of the homeowners is to declare bankruptcy and get this behind them.

gates
November 01, 2010, 15:17
well Nick - If I made a deal with you and we both entered it in good faith I would agree we are both morally obligated to try and make good - however - if one party - say the banks - KNEW - KNEW, as early as 2006 that 60%-80% of the loans they were making were going to FAIL yet made them anyway - was that good faith - I say no, it's a business deal where we KNOW one party acted in bad faith - the buyer may or may not have but we KNOW the banks did.

Sorry, fuk the banks!

TheOtherChris
November 01, 2010, 17:45
A guy takes his Rolex in and the pawn shop allows him to pawn it KNOWING that it is unlikely the guy will come back and redeem it. The watch is the collateral and when the redemption period has passed, they keep it and sell it to somebody else.

Nobody would think it right if the guy came back and said" "You knew I didn't have a way to repay the money to redeem my watch, so I am not giving you the money AND you still have to give me back my watch."

The young couple goes in and buys a brand new DuraMax truck with 20" rims.
The dealer KNOWS it is beyond their capacity to repay the loan and eventually has to repo the truck.

Is there anybody out there advocating the kid ought to be able to drive away from the loan in his now "free" truck?

thunderchicken
November 01, 2010, 18:09
Originally posted by TheOtherChris
A guy takes his Rolex in and the pawn shop allows him to pawn it KNOWING that it is unlikely the guy will come back and redeem it. The watch is the collateral and when the redemption period has passed, they keep it and sell it to somebody else.

Nobody would think it right if the guy came back and said" "You knew I didn't have a way to repay the money to redeem my watch, so I am not giving you the money AND you still have to give me back my watch."

The young couple goes in and buys a brand new DuraMax truck with 20" rims.
The dealer KNOWS it is beyond their capacity to repay the loan and eventually has to repo the truck.

Is there anybody out there advocating the kid ought to be able to drive away from the loan in his now "free" truck?

Exactly. The same people who rail against a nanny state now wonder why we didn't have a nanny banking system. The banks were making fully secured (or so they thought) loans. Now some seem to think the debtor should get to keep the money and the security. It's just the sort of crazy talk one ordinarily expects from the most liberal of democrats.

Nick H.
November 01, 2010, 18:23
I may not have stated my position clearly.

The banks made some huge business mistakes, often accompanied by fraud. They should have been allowed to fail rather than bailing them out. The banksters responsible for the fraud should have been prosecuted.

The individuals borrowing from the banks also made huge mistakes and in some cases also committed fraud by over stating their income and understating their liabilities. They should also have been allowed to fail and prosecuted if they committed fraud.

gates
November 01, 2010, 19:13
No no no - I'm not saying people should get free houses - if you lied or even if you didnt and are just stupid or can no longer make your payment you get foreclosed on - the note holder gets his collateral - thats contract law -

TOC - the pawn shop didnt take it in KNOWING it would default - then turn around and RE-SELL the loan payments to 10 different (traunches) investors (MBS) KNOWING the loan would default - THATS what happened - you missed a crucial step. Not only did the banks KNOW they were making bad loans - the SOLD those same loans with the FULL knowledge they were selling defective paper and to add insult to injury THEN bot a DERIVATIVE BETTING they would FAIL!!! - GS did EXACTLY this on the securtization end.

TheOtherChris
November 01, 2010, 19:39
Originally posted by Nick H.
I may not have stated my position clearly.

The banks made some huge business mistakes, often accompanied by fraud. They should have been allowed to fail rather than bailing them out. The banksters responsible for the fraud should have been prosecuted.

The individuals borrowing from the banks also made huge mistakes and in some cases also committed fraud by over stating their income and understating their liabilities. They should also have been allowed to fail and prosecuted if they committed fraud.

EXACTOMUNDO ON BOTH COUNTS!!

Originally posted by gates
No no no - I'm not saying people should get free houses - if you lied or even if you didnt and are just stupid or can no longer make your payment you get foreclosed on - the note holder gets his collateral - thats contract law -

I agree 100%


TOC - the pawn shop didnt take it in KNOWING it would default - then turn around and RE-SELL the loan payments to 10 different (traunches) investors (MBS) KNOWING the loan would default - THATS what happened - you missed a crucial step. Not only did the banks KNOW they were making bad loans - the SOLD those same loans with the FULL knowledge they were selling defective paper and to add insult to injury THEN bot a DERIVATIVE BETTING they would FAIL!!! - GS did EXACTLY this on the securtization end.

First, the percentage of pawned items not redeemed is about 20% and any decent Pawn Broker can usually tell which people aren't coming back.

Now, the Bozos that represented and sold MBSs as performing or safe when they knew the paper was "questionable" at best, should be investigated for fraud and if found guilty, incarcerated after having their assets seized; possibly under RICO.

STUPID is supposed to hurt.
That's what discourages it's perpetuation.
That should apply to Bank of America, General Motors, FnMae and Joe Sixpack.

gates
November 01, 2010, 21:00
AND there's the rub... getting the congresscritters to bite the hand that feeds (pays for re-election) -

Bankers , to date, are above the law.

DABTL
November 02, 2010, 06:43
Originally posted by gates
AND there's the rub... getting the congresscritters to bite the hand that feeds (pays for re-election) -

Bankers , to date, are above the law.

To know so much and so little is amazing.

First banksters committed massive fraud. REMICS play out again in the financial markets just as they did in 1987.

So, you want prosecutions? Think the problem out before whining.

First, assume you invested say $200 million in REMICS from Goldman. They were sub-prime liar loans rated AAA by the rating folks, put into a 'trust' and hawked like a used car to the buyer. 'Give me one with a 5 tag' says the buyer wanting a 5% return and guess what he got? A '5 tag' investment.

Then the stuff began to fail. Insurance bought at the time of the purchase covers the loss, for a time. Then the insurance company goes bankrupt. Then the seller/servicer makes up the difference for a time.

The investor is not interested in sending the banksters to jail, just interested now in getting the money back with, hopefully, some kind of profit.

Now, as the seller/servicer quits paying, the insurance company fails and the investor begins looking for someone else to blame, lawsuits follow. When the investor realizes there is no return of capital and no possible profit, then they will begin to go to the regulators/Justice Department with the evidence of fraud.

2011 will be a tough year on investors, TBTF banks will fail and the criminal prosecutions will begin. Banksters, mortgage originators/brokers and the other con men will be facing criminal charges.

2012 will see the end of BoA, Chase, Citi, Wells Fargo and PNC I suspect.

And, the taxpayer will be on the hook for the FDIC insurance that the banks have not paid for in obtaining their gambling funds.

2011 and 2012 are going to be tough years for everyone. Fortunately, we have the half term Governor of Alaska to lead the way.
:bow: :bow:

TheJokker
November 02, 2010, 06:53
bankers: herded like cattle by socialists...

on one hand you have "community activists" threatening legal action armed with the CRA if you don't make more "bad loans" and on the other hand you have fannie mae and freddie mack (run by socialists) saying: "make the load and we'll buy it from you". what's a bank to do?

get rid of the socialists and you get rid of the problem. leave bankers and businessman alone. they are part of the solution. liberals would love to make the bankers to scapegoats and take some of the heat off of themselves...

gates
November 02, 2010, 08:22
Jokker... ahh ... never mind. I'm not even going to bother.

Bill - I understand the chronology - I just want it to happen faster - I want one, ONE elected official to broach the subject.

RE: Palin - youre right about the civil war within the Rep. party - she will never be president but will split the party - hopefully by '12 we have a viable 3rd party candidate that is not beholden to the banks and special interests - one can dream...

DABTL
November 02, 2010, 11:19
Originally posted by TheJokker
bankers: herded like cattle by socialists...

on one hand you have "community activists" threatening legal action armed with the CRA if you don't make more "bad loans" and on the other hand you have fannie mae and freddie mack (run by socialists) saying: "make the load and we'll buy it from you". what's a bank to do?

get rid of the socialists and you get rid of the problem. leave bankers and businessman alone. they are part of the solution. liberals would love to make the bankers to scapegoats and take some of the heat off of themselves...

Those poor victims of predatory borrowers! Brings a tear to my eye.

gates
November 02, 2010, 11:20
He doesnt get it Bill - i'm done trying.

Skilter
November 02, 2010, 12:29
I remember walking into a bank when I was 26, self employed and making $60K a year. The bank TOLD ME I was able to AFFORD a $500,000 house. They looked at all my doc's and again... TOLD me what I could AFFORD. "Hey, prices are always up so we can get you 100% LTV."

Luckily, I laughed at that... and got my little $149,000 house. But, I think that is what gates is saying here. When you used to pre-qual with a bank, they would give you an affordability statement and what you qualified for based on your household income. Now, if I had been less educated, less informed about the process or from another culture I may have fell for the trap.

Not all bankers/realtors are swindlers, but I could certainly see more than a few taking advantage of that situation since commissions were based on price. Buying a house complicated transaction. I believe that there is a certain amount of moral responsibility that should go along with the process especially if you are an industry professional.

gates
November 02, 2010, 13:01
Skil - yep. Some people fuked up - BUT the BLAME for these bad loans rests SQUARELY on the banks shoulders - THEY are party that changed the qualification standards, THEY are the party that sold EMPTY MBS' and then screamed at the mortgage brokers for loans to fill these MBS' with, the banks NEW, as early as 2006 that they were writing bad paper AND KEPT DOING IT! THEN the assholes SOLD that bad paper to YOUR pention fund - THEY - FUKIN - KNEW! and they defrauded the American people and God only knows how many outside our country - crime of the century.

Skilter
November 02, 2010, 13:48
The last part about them reselling the same loans multiple times and then repacking them is absolute BS (meaning what they did was totally wrong).

gates
November 02, 2010, 14:45
Been reports of two seperate banks attempting to foreclose on the same house - when BOTH supposedly held the 1st position - who knows

shlomo
November 02, 2010, 15:05
Originally posted by gates
He doesnt get it Bill - i'm done trying.

No, it's YOU who doesn't get it. The math is simple:

Obama=Nixon+Carter

Some day you will be as smart as The Jokker (sic).

TheOtherChris
November 02, 2010, 16:24
Originally posted by DABTL


To know so much and so little is amazing.

First banksters committed massive fraud. REMICS play out again in the financial markets just as they did in 1987.

So, you want prosecutions? Think the problem out before whining.

First, assume you invested say $200 million in REMICS from Goldman. They were sub-prime liar loans rated AAA by the rating folks, put into a 'trust' and hawked like a used car to the buyer. 'Give me one with a 5 tag' says the buyer wanting a 5% return and guess what he got? A '5 tag' investment.

Then the stuff began to fail. Insurance bought at the time of the purchase covers the loss, for a time. Then the insurance company goes bankrupt. Then the seller/servicer makes up the difference for a time.

The investor is not interested in sending the banksters to jail, just interested now in getting the money back with, hopefully, some kind of profit.

Now, as the seller/servicer quits paying, the insurance company fails and the investor begins looking for someone else to blame, lawsuits follow. When the investor realizes there is no return of capital and no possible profit, then they will begin to go to the regulators/Justice Department with the evidence of fraud.

2011 will be a tough year on investors, TBTF banks will fail and the criminal prosecutions will begin. Banksters, mortgage originators/brokers and the other con men will be facing criminal charges.

2012 will see the end of BoA, Chase, Citi, Wells Fargo and PNC I suspect.

And, the taxpayer will be on the hook for the FDIC insurance that the banks have not paid for in obtaining their gambling funds.

2011 and 2012 are going to be tough years for everyone.

Wow.
That was a well reasoned and thoughtful post. Truly helpful to the discussion.

What happened to the DABTL who's partisan rancor reduced him to IGNORE status?

Fortunately, we have the half term Governor of Alaska to lead the way.
:bow: :bow:

Oh, there he is.:rolleyes:

Dolvio
November 03, 2010, 06:18
Who ended Glass Steagall again? (or should I say who signed the repeal?)

TheJokker
November 03, 2010, 06:55
Originally posted by gates
He doesnt get it Bill - i'm done trying.

and your dismal predictive record continues. why? bias.

DABTL
November 03, 2010, 07:29
Originally posted by Dolvio
Who ended Glass Steagall again? (or should I say who signed the repeal?)

Why, Bill Clinton, the Democratic centrist, of course. Dumbest thing done by our government in a hundred years.

Like the results? Vote Republican some more.

gates
November 03, 2010, 09:50
Bill - I agree - dumbest thing we've done

J - Honestly - I have been thinking about that possibility - I can't get past the math and fundamentals though - the big mistake people like me have made - IMO - is underestimating BBs ability to kick the can, and our gov'ts willingness to change or break laws or allow them to be broken in order to save the banks.

As of right now I retain my position that we go down the shitter - NOTHING that caused this mess has been fixed - the Fed has papered over the problem but the problem remains - every big bank in this country is bankrupt and BB keeps digging the hole we are in deeper as he tries to hide the fact - pain now or pain later - only a question of time AND how much suffering happens as we wait.

DABTL
November 03, 2010, 19:07
Originally posted by gates
Bill - I agree - dumbest thing we've done

J - Honestly - I have been thinking about that possibility - I can't get past the math and fundamentals though - the big mistake people like me have made - IMO - is underestimating BBs ability to kick the can, and our gov'ts willingness to change or break laws or allow them to be broken in order to save the banks.

As of right now I retain my position that we go down the shitter - NOTHING that caused this mess has been fixed - the Fed has papered over the problem but the problem remains - every big bank in this country is bankrupt and BB keeps digging the hole we are in deeper as he tries to hide the fact - pain now or pain later - only a question of time AND how much suffering happens as we wait.

When the TBTF banksters fail, it will be ugly. The government will either do something or not. My guess is the Tea Party lunatics will favor doing nothing. Right now we are in the position of guaranteeing against loss the bank accounts at those banks whose funds were 'invested' in the Wall Street casino. Thank you George W. Bush, once again.

An instant fix means deflation, a lot. But for those of us who did not participate in the inflation, it means little.

If the Fed Reserve fails, it will just be the latest national bank to fail. It has happened before. It will happen again.

The question, with the Tea Party lunatics jumping up and down, can government repair the mess?

Or, will the Tea Party, as I suspect, be in the hands of the banksters already and just pluck the middle class one more time?

gates
November 03, 2010, 19:36
Well Bill - Rubio and Paul SAID the right things last night - they either walk the walk... or not. Now do you see why people talk of throwing these folks out - by force- you know, the R word! if this batch of Repubs don't address the fraud and corruption and DO something about it, people will lose faith in the ballot box!


I know you hate him - BUT, Glenn Beck did and amazing show on what the Fed is doing to us on his show tonight - he was DEAD - NUTS - ON! he ruined the message by going after Soros - but he pulled the covers ALL the way off of what the Fed is up to - it was accurate enough that denninger was all over it on the TF after it aired,

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=171173

Dolvio
November 03, 2010, 22:49
DABTL you talk a lot without saying anything. What have the dems done in the past 2 years with total control? Nothing but make things worse. Hell they haven't even spent on infrastructure. Why not?

*but lawdy laws everyone panic, the tea partiers won a few seats. :rolleyes:

Dolvio
November 03, 2010, 22:54
I don't trust any of them, but this country is never going to turn around until we can create some jobs PRODUCING something of value (and no big macs do not count). That means we have to cut the mountain of rules, regulations and taxes that small businesses face (and not just for non-whites). It seemed to work pretty well before we had a central bank sticking their claws into the pie. Y'know back when we were the most prosperous nation on earth and weren't carrying out corporatist wars around the planet.

gates
November 03, 2010, 23:24
Dolv- avoid the partisan bent- concentrate on the enemy - it's not Bill.

Dolvio
November 04, 2010, 00:30
Bill is too smart to not understand exactly what is going on. SO that means he's paid to talk about this stuff. I just like to see people try and defend the indefensible. :biggrin:

gates
November 04, 2010, 00:38
IMO - Bill is what he says he is - a Texas Lawyer.