Government Motors VOLT FRAUD

[2barearms]

As is always the case, anytime the government says one thing
it usually delivers something else. The Chevy VOLT IS A LIE!
They added a kicker motor to it to extend the batteries after the
fact, but after some research work they admitted that the engine
also helps drive the wheels. This thing was hailed as the answer
to the Hybrid and it appears that the electric car is a myth unless
you are the government trying to sell an overpriced toy.


read the lie here: http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/550957/201010191855/Volt-Fraud-At-Government-Motors.htm

[Eric Bryant]

http://www.facepalm.de/facepalm.jpg

Fact #1: The Volt has *always* had an internal combustion engine. I was in Detroit the day it was unveiled to the press. Nothing substantial has changed in this regard - the ICE is the whole point behind the ER-EV (Extended Range Electric Vehicle) concept.

Fact #2: The specific drivetrain configuration is indeed a bit different than originally portrayed by GM, in that the ICE can indeed be connected to the drive wheels through a planetary gear and clutch arrangement. This only happens at speeds over 70 MPH. Those who understand the typical speed-torque curve of a permanent-magnet AC motor will understand why this makes sense; to most other people, it's just something to bitch about.

If someone doesn't like the Volt, there are plenty of good reasons to complain. The range when running in EV mode isn't all that spectacular, and will vary wildly depending upon usage. When running in Charge Sustaining (IC engine running) mode, it will probably get something in the mid- to upper-thirty MPG range - pretty dismal for a "high efficiency" vehicle. It's effin' expensive, and will be outdated in a couple of years (at best). It's also probably not the place that GM should have been focusing its engineering efforts. And despite the substantial creativity by GM Powertrain engineers in creating a novel drivetrain arrangement, GM really dropped the ball from a marketing and PR standpoint.

But don't go focusing on this stupid canard that keeps on getting repeated over and over again - it's nowhere near the best reason to slag on GM.

[shortround]

Plus GM has already sold out the planned run of vehicles and as of last week was planning to ramp up production.

When gas was $4 a gallons there was no end to the bitching and moaning because there were no electric vehicles. Now there is bitching over the semantics of whether it's a pure electric vehicle.

Bottom line is it will go ~40 miles by electric charge alone (tests by media car writers put that over 50 in real world driving) and cost ~$1.50 to recharge. At $3 a gallon for gas and 30 MPG, that means the volt costs $.05 per mile vs. $.10 for a 30 MPG car.

With the "ICE", you can literally drive it coast to coast by just filling the tank.

Try that with the Nissan "Leaf".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_Volt

Chevrolet Volt
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Chevy Volt)

The Chevrolet Volt is a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle to be produced by the Chevrolet division of General Motors and expected to be launched in November 2010 as a 2011 model. Its propulsion system is based on GM's new Voltec (formerly known as E-Flex) electric automobile platform, which differs significantly from GM's earlier BAS Hybrid and Two-Mode Hybrid systems. For up to the first 40 miles (64 km), the Volt is powered by electrical energy stored in its on-board lithium-ion batteries, which are charged by connection to an electrical outlet. The car's 16 kW·h (8.8 kW·h usable) lithium-ion battery pack can be fully charged by plugging the car into a 120-240VAC residential electrical outlet using the provided SAE J1772-compliant[4] charging cord. No external charging station is required.[5]

With fully charged batteries, enough electrical energy will be stored to power the Volt up to 40 miles (64 km), a distance longer than the daily commute for 75% of Americans,[6] whose average commute is 33 miles (53 km).[7] After 40 miles (64 km), a small 4-cylinder internal combustion engine using premium-grade gasoline creates electricity on-board using a 55 kW (74 hp) generator to extend the Volt's range up to an additional 310 miles (499 km).[8] The electrical power from the generator is sent primarily to the electric motor, with the excess going to the batteries, depending on the state of charge (SoC) of the battery pack and the power demanded at the wheels. The distribution is controlled by the electronic control unit (ECU) of the vehicle.[9][10] At high speeds and if the battery is depleted, the internal combustion engine engages to assist the electric motors to turn the wheels, improving performance and boosting high-speed efficiency by 10 to 15 percent.[8][11][12][13]

The Volt's retail price will start at US$41,000 (including destination charges) before any factory incentives, tax deductions, or other subsidies. The Volt is currently eligible for a US$7,500 U.S. federal tax credit and other benefits available in some locations. The Volt will also be available through a lease program with a monthly payment of US$350 for 36 months, with US$2,500 due at lease signing, and with an option to buy at the end of the lease.[14][15] The Volt will be initially sold in seven regions: California, Washington DC, Michigan, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, and Austin, Texas. Nationwide availability in the U.S. and Canada is scheduled to begin in one year to 18 months after the initial launch.[16][17][18]

The first pre-production test car based on the full Volt design was built in June 2009 in Warren, Michigan,[19] and by October 2009, 80 Volts had been built and are being tested under various conditions.[20] On March 31, 2010, the first factory-built Volt was produced at the Detroit Hamtramck Assembly Plant in order to test the production line and for quality control purposes, both of the tooling and the pre-production vehicles that will be produced before regular production begins.[21][22]
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Terminology
* 2 Design
o 2.1 Concept vehicle
o 2.2 Production model
o 2.3 Electromechanical design timeline
o 2.4 Drivetrain
* 3 Specifications
o 3.1 All-electric range
o 3.2 Fuel economy
o 3.3 Battery
o 3.4 Charge plug interface
o 3.5 Test drives
* 4 Production and sales
o 4.1 North America
+ 4.1.1 Scheduled roll-out
o 4.2 Price, tax credits and other incentives
+ 4.2.1 United States
+ 4.2.2 Canada
+ 4.2.3 Europe
o 4.3 Other markets
* 5 OnStar Mobile
* 6 Related concept cars
o 6.1 Cadillac Converj
o 6.2 Volt MPV5
* 7 Controversies and criticism
o 7.1 EPA testing
o 7.2 Production cost and sales price
o 7.3 Battery charging emissions
* 8 Awards
* 9 See also
* 10 External links
* 11 References
o 11.1 Notes

[edit] Terminology
Further information: Hybrid vehicle drivetrain

The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) definition of a hybrid vehicle states that the vehicle shall have "two or more energy storage systems both of which must provide propulsion power, either together or independently."[23] Nevertheless, General Motors has avoided the use of the term "hybrid" when describing its Voltec designs despite some controversy, even after it was revealed that the combustion engine provided some assist at high speeds.[13] Instead GM describes the Volt as an electric vehicle equipped with a "range extending" gasoline powered internal combustion engine (ICE) as a genset and therefore dubbed the Volt an "Extended Range Electric Vehicle" or E-REV.[24][25]

However, due to the combination of an internal combustion engine and electric motors, according to SAE's definition the Volt is a hybrid vehicle, and its configuration is most commonly referred to as a plug-in hybrid.[8] The Volt works as a series hybrid at normal speeds, as the internal combustion engine only acts as a generator to power the electric motors. In order to improve high-speed power if the battery is depleted, the internal combustion engine engages mechanically to the output from the transmission and assists both electric motors to propel the Volt up to its top speed of 101 miles per hour (163 km/h), then acting as a power-split or series-parallel hybrid.[8][11][13]

Also: http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/20/2011-chevrolet-volt-first-drive-review/

Chevy Volt:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2010/10/2011chevroletvoltopt1.jpg

Nissan Leaf:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/08/17-1280.jpg

[olgier]

wonder how well those batteries will hold up @ -20 to -50 in the north during winter?

[RG Coburn]

When it breaks,are you supposed to call a mechanic or an electrician?

Wonder if the lights go dim when the batteries die? Why didn't they build it like those shakie-shakie flashlights,so when we drive around on crappy back roads,it will charge itself?
It was a stupid concept,right alongside the Vega.Heck,I'd buy an old diesel Chevette before I'd buy this POS.

[Powderfinger]

Another prime example of the green religion and junk science being foisted off on the sheeple.
I'd rather see something like VW offers in Europe. A 73 mpg TDI VW Polo BlueMotion.
Too bad big brother won't allow import. Low carbon emmisions and over twice the milage.
What's the total carbon footprint of the Volt and the production of it's expensive batteries compared to the Polo over both of their lifetimes? Green isn't always green.


Scroll down to the Polo BlueMotion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Polo

From this link:http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/volkswagen-world/news/131

"...in 2010 the second generation BlueMotion will follow. Shown as a concept car at Geneva, and equipped with an all-new 1.2-litre three-cylinder common rail diesel engine developing 75 PS, the BlueMotion II will be capable of returning 85 mpg on the combined cycle while generating just 87 g/km of CO2. Making this possible is a package of modifications including the new engine, automatic Stop-Start and regenerative braking, a gearbox with revised ratios, optimised aerodynamics beneath the vehicle, suspension lowered by 15 mm and the fitment of low rolling resistance tyres."

85 MPG

Those silly Germans.

[Heat]

My question is WHY the hell dont we run diesel engines in all our cars and trucks--the rest of the world seems to have embraced the diesel yet we lag way behind..I see these VW diesels running around--also trucks, vans, prime movers..but your family puttputt is almost always a gas engine getting rather crappy mileage (compared to diesel). I have a friend who has an old VW truck, the little miniture one..has a diesel, not alot of power but that was the technology in 80..gotta a bonafide 50+mpg in that little thing. Meanwhile we were driving small P/U like couriers, datsuns, toyotas getting 20mpg--seems stupid on our part.

[John Culver]

In testing trips over 100miles the Chevy volt gets 38mpg

If you only drive short distances it STILL will run the gas motor to prevent the ethanol gas in the tank from breaking down, which according to GM happens in 30 days

Not to mention the interior is cheap as hell, especially when compared to other $40,000 vehicles

The 2012 Mazda2 will get 70mpg, all with an ICE, no electric

Yes the Chevy Volt has sold well, but what they dont mention is that a vast number of those sales are to the govt.

yes your tax dollars at work.

[John Culver]

Originally posted by Heat
My question is WHY the hell dont we run diesel engines in all our cars and trucks--the rest of the world seems to have embraced the diesel yet we lag way behind..I see these VW diesels running around--also trucks, vans, prime movers..but your family puttputt is almost always a gas engine getting rather crappy mileage (compared to diesel). I have a friend who has an old VW truck, the little miniture one..has a diesel, not alot of power but that was the technology in 80..gotta a bonafide 50+mpg in that little thing. Meanwhile we were driving small P/U like couriers, datsuns, toyotas getting 20mpg--seems stupid on our part.

One word, emissions
Far stricter for diesels here then in Europe, also the ultra low sulfur fuel requirements here make it harder to design a diesel,

[RG Coburn]

Originally posted by John Culver


One word, emissions
Far stricter for diesels here then in Europe, also the ultra low sulfur fuel requirements here make it harder to design a diesel,

Therein lies the idiocy. You burn twice the volume of fuel to achieve a lower emmision? Wow..brilliant...

[Heat]

Originally posted by RG Coburn


Therein lies the idiocy. You burn twice the volume of fuel to achieve a lower emmision? Wow..brilliant...
That is, in a word..dumb
I see the europeans hitting the roads in their diesels and we hitting the road in our gas hogs and its just lame..they have congested cities, in fact they probably have more high population areas then we do
And we have Powerstrokes, Cummins and others dropping diesels in trucks, why not cars?? I heard that ford was going to chop their 7.3 down a couple cylinders a few yrs ago and use that in the F150--and nothing yet

[2barearms]

Originally posted by RG Coburn


Therein lies the idiocy. You burn twice the volume of fuel to achieve a lower emmision? Wow..brilliant...

When Diesel was approaching $4 a few years back, I was working with a friend in Houston
on a Commercial BioDiesel project for a small trucking company. As soon as the price of
diesel went down and the giants bought all the soybean oil contracts up that put an end to it. Then the giants used the buck a gallon deal from the US government and began selling
all their product to Europe, go figure. BioDiesel would help the emmissions issue and
make the air smell like a McDonalds Drive thru at the same time.

If you take 41,000 dollars and buy two F150's you get twice the mileage:bow:

[Heat]

One thing seems certain..we are going to see the price of petro chems go up and up and in the mean time we sit on our fukin hands..biofuels are feasible
Algae looks viable..can be grown in waste water in crappy areas of the desert and it yields from 10-100 times the amount of product as say corn or soy..grows 10 times faster--i just cant believe we have such lousy leadership..wait!--dems/republicans--ok, question answered!:|

[Aifwikir]

A lie is still a LIE. Fraud is still FRAUD. The Volt is still a LIE and a FRAUD! Come talk to me when it gets 400 miles on a charge.

Your Government at work!

:D
Aif

[2barearms]

They were getting better run time on 'real' electric vehicles in 1900 than they are 100
years later.

[thunderchicken]

Originally posted by Heat
One thing seems certain..we are going to see the price of petro chems go up and up and in the mean time we sit on our fukin hands..biofuels are feasible
Algae looks viable..can be grown in waste water in crappy areas of the desert and it yields from 10-100 times the amount of product as say corn or soy..grows 10 times faster--i just cant believe we have such lousy leadership..wait!--dems/republicans--ok, question answered!:|

Actually, I don't think this is likely. Oil prices are whatever the saudis say they are and we have a 100 year supply of natural gas in this country. I would anticipate stable energy prices for the foreseeable future, though admit there is exchange rate risk.

I've got an algae interest and "conventional" biodiesel (sunflowers) interest and am anticipating lose a conisderable sum on those two. But you are absolutely right that we should be all driving sensible euro diesels.

[Sailor553]

"we should be all driving sensible euro diesels."

What? And, start all this EPA, CARB mileage shit all over again! BTW: bio fuel gels in the Winter.

[aardq]

They were getting better run time on 'real' electric vehicles in 1900 than they are 100 years later.
Very true but their speeds were only in the 30s. Not too fast, and today we all want to get there now.
There's a 19teens Detroit Electric that comes to some of the car shows around SE MI, and IIRC it's speed is 25-30mph.

Dan

[renaissance_warrior]

The main reason there is no real interest in diesels and oil from sand or shale is Henry Waxman. he thinks that both of them are 'dirty' and won't even allow discussion on the subjects. Ask the people who live in Montana about the massive shale oil deposits about this. He won't even let them process it. Same with the Athabasca tar sands in Canada.

Yep, government at work. Oxymoron intended.

[chrsdwns]

Euro auto Diesels are amazing engines and modern controls advanced materials are making them light, efficient and powerful.

The incentive is EU tax policy. EU politicans soak the common people with taxes for gasoline fuels for personal use but do not tax Diesel fuel as much because it is used for business consumption and gasoline like taxes on diesel would put most EU business in bankruptcy.

Euro auto diesels were developed as an end run around EU tax policy as much as they were a move to improve efficiency. (Forget F1 or soccer, tax dodging is the true national sport of Europe)

Diesel is more expensive here than gasoline which is why we have not seen a lot of diesels over here yet but they are coming now that they are so well refined.

After the Americans having to foot the bill for the development of most automotive developments it's nice to see the Euros pay out the nose to develop a next generation technology that we will benefit from.

Barring any major light weight , compact and low cost energy storage break through, Hybrids Diesel/Electrics are the near term future for maximum energy effiicency market segment, but with the emphisis on the diesel engine as the primary power source with just enough battery storage to recapture and temporarily store the energy regenerated from braking until it can be reused.

Turbo Diesels can get about 70 mpg and adding regeneration can improve this by about 30% but that 30% adds a ton of weight, cost, complexity and mantainance cost for a diminishing return on efficiency so pure diesels win the cost/complexity effectiveness efficency benchmark hands down

Pure Electric cars are as much of a fraud but slightly less of a fantasy today than they were 20 years ago when I was a consultant to one of the big electric car start ups funded by the California electric car mandate

Tesla is a perfect example of a next generation government funded transportation boondoggle. Tesla (Obama connected) investors get rich off of one billion in free public cash while the American people get stuck with the bill.

[Eric Bryant]

Diesel proliferation is slowing around the world - we're about maxed-out on producing diesel fractions from crude oil (both in absolute terms from refineries, and as a proportion of crude produced). Refineries can change their process a bit to increase the rate of diesel production, but at a loss of efficiency.

Also, diesel fuel economy is less impressive when measured in some other fashion than volume of fuel per distance traveled. If you look at grams of C02 per mile (the basis for most fuel-economy standards in the future, including CAFE starting in 2012), diesel is not as good as the MPG figures would suggest.

Emission controls for diesels are indeed expensive - and this isn't limited to the US (Euro 5 is similar to the latest EPA rules). But the rest of the diesel engine is also very pricey - far more so than a typical gasoline engine. Worsening the situation is that there is very little industrial capacity in the US for producing diesel engines of a size appropriate for smaller trucks and cars.

[Munster30]

So what's going to mean to the power grid when everybody's got their electric vehicles plugged into a charge station?

[Eric Bryant]

The latest smart chargers take into account the loading on the grid, and will charge the vehicle at the best opportunity (usually at night).

There are even some interesting proposals that would use EVs as a way to manage the load on the grid during peak hours. This scheme would pull a bit of charge from vehicles that are plugged into chargers, and then top 'em back off a few minutes later when the load drops off again. Think of this as a widely-distributed version of A123's grid stabilization systems:

http://www.a123systems.com/a123/applications/grid-stabilization

[1gewehr]

Originally posted by John Culver
In testing trips over 100miles the Chevy volt gets 38mpg

Sheesh, our 1992 Toyota Paseo gets that kind of mileage on the highway! Maybe they should just take out those heavy as he!! batteries and electric motor. I bet the mileage would go WAY up!!:D

Of course, the thing that really burns my butt is that the sticker price is $40,280 AFTER over $7000 in direct government payments and also considering that the taxpayers paid for half the development costs. I guess we're seeing exactly what you get when the government builds a car; over-priced, under-performing, poorly designed, and late delivery.

[Munster30]

here you go. No gas, no power grid. Just what the Obameister ordered.

[Eric Bryant]

Originally posted by 1gewehr
Of course, the thing that really burns my butt is that the sticker price is $40,280 AFTER over $7000 in direct government payments and also considering that the taxpayers paid for half the development costs.

Hopefully your butt burns less once you find out that the $40K sticker price is before the $7500 tax credit. After the credit, you're talking about a price in the lower-/mid-30s. I'm still not interested, mind you - but let's at least try to be somewhat accurate and objective.

[John Culver]

Originally posted by Eric Bryant
The latest smart chargers take into account the loading on the grid, and will charge the vehicle at the best opportunity (usually at night).



Best opportunity does not match with reality though.

I want my car to be ready when I need it, not when the grid decides it has the current to spare.

And 'usually at night' is fine until more people have electric cars.

It does NOT scale well

[FALonious]

Here is a link http://mobile.mlive.com/advdetroit/db_96681/contentdetail.htm;jsessionid=2B1329D7DE19EED6F39E9 5613EB77702?contentguid=1oE8CNAl&detailindex=1&pn=0&ps=5&full=true#display to a story on our local papers front page this morning concerning this Volt POS. We here in MI have had this thing crammed down our throat and been told over and over again how this thing will save our State, we have places making parts for it locally, one of which is a new “Battery Plant” and of course Detroit….reminds me of the stories of how Hitler was counting on the “Wonder Weapons” to save his “Fatherland”….they didn’t and this wont.
Our tax dollars hard at work. I don’t normally post down here but thought you guys would get a kick out of this. The paper has a big pic that the link doesn’t have of the car lifted up on a hoist. That just may be a more accurate portrayal of the car than they intended, and our State come to think of it…lol

[Eric Bryant]

Originally posted by John Culver
Best opportunity does not match with reality though.

I want my car to be ready when I need it, not when the grid decides it has the current to spare.

And 'usually at night' is fine until more people have electric cars.

It does NOT scale well

If this doesn't work for you, don't buy one. I'm not buying one, either. I do like the fact that the option exists for those who have compatible lifestyles - that frees up more fossil fuels for me and my fleet of gas-guzzlers.

It takes about 9 kWh to charge a Volt, and probably something closer to 20 kWh for a Nissan Leaf. Figure that we've got 10 million of each charging every night - that's 290 GWh of additional consumption every day, or 105 TWh each year. Present energy production in the US right now is about 4000 TWh. This is not a trivial increase, but it's not exactly unmanageable, either - I think you'd find that there is a much larger obstacle in simply selling that many EVs at present prices.

If you want to wring your hands in concern for our grid, I'd recommend waging a war on air conditioning and electric dryers.

[shortround]

Originally posted by John Culver


Best opportunity does not match with reality though.

I want my car to be ready when I need it, not when the grid decides it has the current to spare.

And 'usually at night' is fine until more people have electric cars.

It does NOT scale well

And that is the difference in the Volt over the Leaf or any other pure electric vehicle. As long as you remembered to fill the gas tank, it's ready, grid or no grid. Have a power outage the night before? The guy down the street gets to hope his Leaf had enough charge left to get him to work and back.

[Munster30]

How long has this technology been out there? In 1980 Mother Earth News published the blueprint for making your own "hybrid car." It was based on a design and build by David Arthur.
The main power came from an electric motor, actually the starter moteor from a jet engine. They used two banks of batteries from a Boeing 707, I believe. The gas engine was a Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine that ran a generator to charge on battery bank while the other was powering the car. The designer used a 1970's vintage Opel Cadet.
I believe I still have that issue of Mother Earth News around someplace.

[2barearms]

Originally posted by Munster30
How long has this technology been out there? In 1980 Mother Earth News published the blueprint for making your own "hybrid car." It was based on a design and build by David Arthur.
The main power came from an electric motor, actually the starter moteor from a jet engine. They used two banks of batteries from a Boeing 707, I believe. The gas engine was a Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine that ran a generator to charge on battery bank while the other was powering the car. The designer used a 1970's vintage Opel Cadet.
I believe I still have that issue of Mother Earth News around someplace.

You can find all manner of stuff for those inclined to mess with EV Conversions. A small
gas or diesel engine powering a permanent magnet alternator would be a great start.
As always none of this stuff is technically new, guys like Tesla and Edison did most of
this stuff a hundred years ago, without the internet.

[evan price]

Diesel/Electric hybrids have been racking up millions of miles in the US since WWII or before. We just don't have batteries on them, and call them locomotives. :lol:

Anyway, plugging hybrids in at night sounds good until you discover that in high-density areas, the transformers run at high load all day and require the lighter night loadings to cool down so they do not burn out. Now, start putting high current EV chargers on all night, and the power company is going to have problems.

What is stupid (more stupid, really) is GM didn't learn from the EV-1 which is the only people that will embrace gee-whiz new stuff like the electric car are the techno weinies and greenie nutjobs. The rest of us just want to turn the key and go without worrying about carbon footprint. Plus I can get 30 mpg in a full sized Bonneville crusing at 75 in comfort with the AC on. Why can a car that is twice as green not get twice the MPG?

[Eric Bryant]

Originally posted by evan price
What is stupid (more stupid, really) is GM didn't learn from the EV-1 which is the only people that will embrace gee-whiz new stuff like the electric car are the techno weinies and greenie nutjobs.

Toyota's Prius outsells several mainstream cars, including the Chevy Impala, and has done so for a few years. I'd say there is a sizable market for hybrids.

Why can a car that is twice as green not get twice the MPG?

Assuming that you're asking an honest question:

1) Because the Voltec series-hybrid powertrain is not optimizing for Charge Sustaining (IC engine mode) usage. I personally don't agree with the compromises that GM made in this architecture, but it's easy enough to vote my disapproval with my wallet.

2) Because the Volt is still a fairly large and rather heavy (~3800lb) car. Once again, this is the result of its unique architecture, and the fact that it carries four people.

The laws of physics are a real bitch. Either we find a way to disprove Carnot's theorem, or we use smaller vehicles. Seeing as how 80% of vehicles are occupied by a single human, there may be something to the latter concept.

[evan price]

Originally posted by Eric Bryant


Toyota's Prius outsells several mainstream cars, including the Chevy Impala, and has done so for a few years. I'd say there is a sizable market for hybrids.



Assuming that you're asking an honest question:

1) Because the Voltec series-hybrid powertrain is not optimizing for Charge Sustaining (IC engine mode) usage. I personally don't agree with the compromises that GM made in this architecture, but it's easy enough to vote my disapproval with my wallet.

2) Because the Volt is still a fairly large and rather heavy (~3800lb) car. Once again, this is the result of its unique architecture, and the fact that it carries four people.

The laws of physics are a real bitch. Either we find a way to disprove Carnot's theorem, or we use smaller vehicles. Seeing as how 80% of vehicles are occupied by a single human, there may be something to the latter concept.

Toyota's Prius and Honda's Insight are a good bit different than the Volt; their architecture is intended primarily as IC with the electric as assist or for use in low-speed conditions- whereas the Volt is designed as an electric vehicle with the IC as charging and now, assist. Sounds great in theory however the specifics of the Toyota and Honda systems are what makes them good.

Heck, the original aluminum Insight got better than the Volt in terms of MPG and range. 70 MPG and infinite range by refueling. They did this with an 1850-lb curb weight and .25 cd.

As far as the question about doubling MPG- yes, I understand physics- but my problem is that if the intent of the Volt is to create a transportation system that is both less environmentally damaging AND more fuel efficient they should have focused on that as a primary objective- who wants a car like the Volt when you can have something else more comfortable, more roomy, much less expensive, and not much less on the MPG.

A BlueMotion Golf could outperform the Volt in nearly every way and duplicate the early Insight (Well, except for the need to add urea...)

Given the requirements to mine lithium and the environmental impact of refining lithium and the energy required to make lithium batteries I find it difficult to believe that the energy budget of this type of automobile is in reality better, cradle to grave. It appears to be a panacea that does not deliver.

Perhaps the VW Twindrive will be what it takes to get GM in the right direction.

[Eric Bryant]

Originally posted by evan price
Toyota's Prius and Honda's Insight are a good bit different than the Volt; their architecture is intended primarily as IC with the electric as assist or for use in low-speed conditions- whereas the Volt is designed as an electric vehicle with the IC as charging and now, assist. Sounds great in theory however the specifics of the Toyota and Honda systems are what makes them good.

The Prius and the Insight themselves are quite different, and exhibit different performance characteristics depending upon operating speed and load. The Insight is heavily biased towards a low purchase price, and as such does not yield the same benefits as the more complex Prius.

The Prius "power-split" system is absolutely brilliant at lower speeds. Ironically, at high speeds, it is actually less efficient than a stand-alone IC engine. GM's wonderful Two Mode system does much to fix this problem, but unfortunately GM has not yet offered this in anything smaller than the full-size trucks and SUVs.

Note that the Insight is not capable of "pure" EV operation. The Prius can operate to some extent in a pure EV mode, but will not have the same performance envelope as the Volt. Each makes compromises in a certain direction, and it will be up to the consumer to make the right choice. In other words, we are screwed ;)

In all seriousness, the one scenario where the Volt looks very interesting is if we run into another "oil shock", where fuel may not just be very expensive but possibly unobtainable at times. I believe this is why the Volt's pack was sized to cover ~78% of American commutes - it would more or less keep Americans mobile enough to work if we were faced with a shortage of liquid fuels. The same is not true of any other commercially-available hybrid car - the Prius may sip fuel, but you won't go far if the gas tank is empty.

Heck, the original aluminum Insight got better than the Volt in terms of MPG and range. 70 MPG and infinite range by refueling. They did this with an 1850-lb curb weight and .25 cd.


The first-gen Insight got pretty close to being "right" for the average American commuter - it didn't pretend to carry several people and a week's worth of luggage, and it was pretty damn efficient at typical driving speeds. The powertrain was also not so complex as to add undue cost. It of course flopped, because we no longer see the virtue of having a two-seat commuter car despite having an average of 3 cars per household. Hell, I'm just as guilty as anyone else - I have four cars for a household of three people, and the smallest one weighs 3700 lbs and has a 4.6L V8.