Dutch Courage again?

[FAL freek]

Seems the Dutch are pulling up stakes in Afghanistan and many suspect it is the first in many to put more pressure on the U.S. government to take on more and more of the burden. Guess the Dutch forgot the Srebrenica massacre already.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38510568/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia

[d_s]

What does Srebrenica have to do with the Dutch pulling out of Afghanistan?

[John Culver]

Originally posted by d_s
What does Srebrenica have to do with the Dutch pulling out of Afghanistan?

They stood by and let it happen

[juanni]

Looks like they are creating an opportunity for all the armchair warriors here to take up the fight and start stacking severed muslim heads. :rolleyes:




..................juanni

[d_s]

They stood by and let it happen so that means they "forgot" about it? OR is it that they didn't forget what happened to the Soviets when they got involved in this train wreck and decided to cut their losses?

[Thorack]

Well,

I have no doubt that the Dutch have no stomach for the fight. Having been in NATO HQ in Kabul I can tell you most of the Non-US folks have little stomach for the fight. Even our stalwart allies the Brits are feeling the presuure to pull pitch and head for home.

The Allies will leave us and we will have to go it alone as we did in Iraq. Its OK though by the time that happens hopfully we will have drawn down in OIF. We will have to ask ourselves is it worth it. The real problem is how do you rebuild a country that had no infrastructure to begin with. the Paki's made this mess they shoudl help clean it up but they wont.

Dutch will be just the beginning or the Euro flight.

Thorack

[martin35]

What is the inevitable truth in that part of the world?
Neither Bush or Obama have outlined a conclusive strategy for our honorable withdrawal pf Afghanistan which is a political imperative, they both just tell the military to "plug the damn hole". Victory now can only be a honorably staged bugout if Petreaus doesn't pull another effective surge out of his hat.
The that region only became important because of the attacks that originated and launched from there.
Our presence gives us some degree of real time intelligence and ready punishment capability, maybe world opinion keeps us from meting out punishment with technological isolation or maybe our technology is bullshit and boots on the ground is the only alternative,,, hard to know from where I sit in my drawers, Justin Ropers and keyboard.
I am interested in hearing what the veterans of that theater opine,,, they won the battles, can we win the war or do we do the Saigon Shuffle again?
I always thought the Camel Walk looked cool,,, too tangle footed to do it myself..
Maybe we should paint the rocks and leave.

[FAL freek]

Originally posted by Thorack
Well,

I have no doubt that the Dutch have no stomach for the fight. Having been in NATO HQ in Kabul I can tell you most of the Non-US folks have little stomach for the fight. Even our stalwart allies the Brits are feeling the presuure to pull pitch and head for home.

The Allies will leave us and we will have to go it alone as we did in Iraq. Its OK though by the time that happens hopfully we will have drawn down in OIF. We will have to ask ourselves is it worth it. The real problem is how do you rebuild a country that had no infrastructure to begin with. the Paki's made this mess they shoudl help clean it up but they wont.

Dutch will be just the beginning or the Euro flight.

Thorack Bingo. We have a winner. Most posters have missed the fact (including a resident troll) that this is a definate sign that America is losing influence in the world. Europe cares for nothing except themselves and there is no real hope of Europe (outside of the U.K.) trying to make a difference in the world. The West as a whole will be in for a rude awakening in the next 50 years.

Good to hear from some boots on the ground.

[Apache66]

America was attacked on September 11th, 2001 by MOSLEM terrorists that had the backing, support and direction of MOSLEM leaders of Al Queda and the Afgan Taliban. aS NATO allies, all other NATO members are supposed to join in defeating the scum that attacked us. As the European members never invisioned that they would have to actually put forth effort to help us, they all thought that we would rescue them for the Warsaw Pact, now that we need the help, they all run back home, just like the ingrates they all are. Fook Nato, we have been and will be on our own, except for a few small friends. I say get out of NATO, and revert to what this war is: a punative expedition, get rid of the media and go to town like WWII, bomb their asses to DEATH. Don't attempt to fornicate us.

[FAL freek]

Originally posted by d_s
What does Srebrenica have to do with the Dutch pulling out of Afghanistan? Look up how the English p*ssed all over the Dutch for a couple centuries before the end of Colonialism and how the behaved during the Bosnian conflict (namely getting drunk while the people they were supposed to be protecting got massacred). You can easily draw your own conclusions.

[bykerhd]

I'm wondering at what point NATO will decide to vote the U.S. out of the organization ?
And I expect shortly, simultaneously ?, the newly "streamlined" NATO's withdrawal of "approval" and support for continued combat operations in Afghanistan will be announced.
At which point, the U.S. is left on it's own with no fiction of legitimacy for continuing the war and a supply and logistics nightmare to rival the Nazi's problem at Stalingrad. At least the Soviets were able to evacuate their forces by vehicle when the time came to cut & run. I wonder what WE will do ?:uhoh:

[juanni]

The opportunity to win the war if there ever really was one, is long past.

The world knows it, the dutch know it, the taliban knows it, the pakis know it, russia knows it and the US military leadership knows it.



The only ones you don't are the warmongers here who think our military empire on chinese credit will last forever . :uhoh:
You too will figure it out. ;)



............juanni

[jeffrey]

Originally posted by Apache66
America was attacked on September 11th, 2001 by MOSLEM terrorists that had the backing, support and direction of MOSLEM leaders of Al Queda and the Afgan Taliban. aS NATO allies, all other NATO members are supposed to join in defeating the scum that attacked us. As the European members never invisioned that they would have to actually put forth effort to help us, they all thought that we would rescue them for the Warsaw Pact, now that we need the help, they all run back home, just like the ingrates they all are. Fook Nato, we have been and will be on our own, except for a few small friends. I say get out of NATO, and revert to what this war is: a punative expedition, get rid of the media and go to town like WWII, bomb their asses to DEATH. Don't attempt to fornicate us.

I agree. Can't "rebuild" what never was. Kill people, break things and come home.

My son is now home from a tour over there. I won't relate his experiences / opinions of the Dutch,
but he and his team think very highly of the Aussies who shared a lot of their AO. Asskickers and generous with their supplies when the US command forgot to send food!

[martin35]

Looking at our history of nation building that started in the early 20th century in the Caribbean and Central America I think we have the same goals now as then, installing a government that can peacefully co-exist and then leave them to their own devices .
Additionally we should be able to actually do it in a more effective way with the type people and equipment we dedicate to the task today, the caveate is politicians who blur the objectives and encumber the processes with their arbtrary regulations.
Cuba the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Nicaragua and Panama though smaller in land mass I compare to Afghanistan in terms of opposition and development , we stayed in Panama to operate the canal and kept a station in Cuba to "coal" our ships only as long as it served our strategic interests, we still "coal " our ships out of Guantanamo it appears,
To use a rodeo parlance It's almost a calf rope, we've used all our piggin' tie ropes and it's either going to hold or the calf is going to scamper away,,, we ain't building a string ball as the bow legged old timer said.
The only way calf roping could be improved is with duct tape,,, maybe Gen. Petreaus has some.