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Bigger_Is_Better
June 11, 2010, 14:50
I found this posted on the MissouriCarry forum.

"Keep in mind that if you are married and your wife has access to your guns (not in a locking safe, or she knows the combination/has access to the key), you can't just have a personal C&R FFL with the suppressor in your name.

Everyone who has access to the suppressor must be listed on a corp which holds both the FFL and the tax stamp.

This does not apply if you keep the suppressor in a safe that she can't open, or if she is never in the house when you are not home (but you may have to prove one of those things if she is charged with unlawful ownership).

If I remember correctly. My wife and I looked into getting a suppressor, but we found that unless we either bought another safe or formed a corporation, it would not be legal."


Is this true? If married do you have to be incorporated for the NFA paperwork just because of your wife knowing a combination?

Doesn't sound right, but who knows with the ATF.

Thanks,
Aaron

jaykden
June 11, 2010, 15:29
bull.

i have 4 NFA firearms and i owned the first 3 for over a year, while married with NO safe at all.

i bought a safe just before i bought the M-16


technically its correct that only the owner can have access to the item, but its absolutly rediculous that just because your wife knows the safe combo, that means shes an "unregistered" owner. what about transfering a firearm/suppressor as an individual? can't have 2 owners that way now can ya!


there are some threads about this in the NFA forum over at arfcom.

BATFE will NOT refuse a F1/F4 on these grounds because they dont know and probably don't really care if the spouse knows the combo or not.

the ONLY way i can see a problem is if you wife decides to take the can out by herself.. gets checked and the officer sees that she's not on the F1/F4. that could be a problem i guess.


IF she wants to use it without you around, form a trust, and have both you and her on it, then you both would be the owner so to speak.

all my NFA items were done as a trust because the local CLEO wouldn't sign off.

(he HAS to now since the state of alaska recently passed a law requiring all CLEOs to sign off on NFA items, kinda like "shall issue" for CCW).

just my .02 so take it for what its worth.

L1A1rocker
June 11, 2010, 23:04
To the letter of the law that is correct. But as pointed out the practical application is different. The ATF does not do any inspections for compliance on storage of the firearm. Hell, if you are concerned about it run a cable through it and lock the cable rendering the item useless. That meets the letter of the law itself. Or, as suggested, form a trust with both you on it.

cowbilly
June 12, 2010, 13:55
I have heard there will be issues if a trust is not done for CL III firearms if the owner passes. I've been looking into getting a trust done, sounds like catch 22 to me. NFA rules/laws have to be some of the worst written.

I heard a lawyer on Gun talk state that BATFE considers it an illegal transfer if the wife gets into your safe or can access your class III firearm. I thought he was trying to sell me on a Trust but after doing some reading, sounds like he is right. I think his website was: guntrustlawyer.com

Bigger_Is_Better
June 12, 2010, 16:00
Kind of what I thought guys. One could always tell the wife not to admit she knows the combination. Plead the 5th and what not. No real way for them to prove it. It's not an issue I'm concerned about, I just read it and thought it was somewhat bunk. I knew over here I'd get an answer.

Take It Easy,
Aaron

717driver
June 12, 2010, 17:45
Let me see if I can explain it. If you want access to use the supressor without either one being there, then put it in a corp. If you have it in your name then your wife cannot posses it without you being present. As far as being in the safe, put it in a small lock box within the safe, to be on the safe side......no pun intended. Hope that is clear as mud.

gunsmoke
June 20, 2010, 00:22
Originally posted by jaykden



IF she wants to use it without you around, form a trust, and have both you and her on it, then you both would be the owner so to speak.

all my NFA items were done as a trust because the local CLEO wouldn't sign off.

(he HAS to now since the state of alaska recently passed a law requiring all CLEOs to sign off on NFA items, kinda like "shall issue" for CCW).

just my .02 so take it for what its worth.




Properly structured a trust is the way to go eases inheritence and there are no annual maintenance/taxes as on a corp.

Don't do a do it yourself trust not for NFA you've got to find an in-state attorney familiar with Title II firearms and Trusts.

Good luck.

the gman
June 21, 2010, 10:54
Originally posted by cowbilly
I have heard there will be issues if a trust is not done for CL III firearms if the owner passes. I've been looking into getting a trust done, sounds like catch 22 to me. NFA rules/laws have to be some of the worst written.

I heard a lawyer on Gun talk state that BATFE considers it an illegal transfer if the wife gets into your safe or can access your class III firearm. I thought he was trying to sell me on a Trust but after doing some reading, sounds like he is right. I think his website was: guntrustlawyer.com

Not an issue at all. NFA regs specifically allow for the heirs of an estate that has NFA items in it to receive a tax free transfer of said NFA items providing of course that they are legal to possess in the state that the heir/s lives in.

Here's a link to the NFA Handbook & will answer all questions regarding this & 99.99% of all NFA questions:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/

Click on chapter 9 "Transfers of NFA Firearms" * para 9.5.3 is the one that refers.

The "gun trust lawyer" is a fcuking scam artist in my book, trying to scare folks into creating a trust that he just happens to be able to set up for you, for a fee, natch...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Technically, access to NFA firearms by anyone other than the named taxpayer (for that is what the NFA is all about) IS prohibited but the chances a prosecution happening for that offense with someone like your wife, in & of itself, isolated from any other incident is so rare as to rate up there with finding rocking horse shit in your back yard this morning....:devil:

Yes, if considering a FIRST NFA purchase, a trust or corp would be the easy way to go, with perhaps a trust being the easier one (if properly set up) to deal with when we slip off this mortal coil. If you already own NFA items outside of a trust or corp, I would personally leave well alone.
I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV & I sure didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night either....:angel:

There are plenty of good places to get additional info on NFA items, their acquisition, transfer & storage such as subguns.com, silencertests.com & others. Don't just listen to a guy who has an absolute vested interest in creating trusts for money as his motives may be open to question. YMMV & have a nice day.:D

ds762
June 21, 2010, 18:10
well the trust option is out since in MO to obtain modern NFA you must hold some kind of FFL. ATF does not issue licenses to trusts .. so your option is either sole ownership or LLC.

if you have the suppressor in an LLC and the wifey is listed as a corporate officer then yes she can shoot it all she wants without you there. LLC's have paperwork drawbacks (annual maintenance)

if its individual .. then she may only use the item in your direct supervision.

the gman
June 22, 2010, 23:11
Originally posted by ds762
well the trust option is out since in MO to obtain modern NFA you must hold some kind of FFL. ATF does not issue licenses to trusts .. so your option is either sole ownership or LLC.

if you have the suppressor in an LLC and the wifey is listed as a corporate officer then yes she can shoot it all she wants without you there. LLC's have paperwork drawbacks (annual maintenance)

if its individual .. then she may only use the item in your direct supervision.

There is a real problem in blanket descriptions of whether a trust, corp or individual ownership is the way to go for NFA purposes because each state can & will have differences in their rules.

For example, in my state (NM) an LLC is absolutely (IMHO) the easiest way to go because it costs $50 to set up, you can do it yourself very easily & there is NO requirement to file any annual maintenance reports nor any other annual fees past the initial $50 to set it up.

MO is different obviously but this is why it pays to visit some of the dedicated NFA sites & ask questions there.

Bigger_Is_Better
June 23, 2010, 11:10
You do have to have an FFL in MO to own an NFA item. That's one of the few firearms laws we have that sucks. I've owned my SBR for years and I'm not worried at all about it. I just needed some info to answer the quoted gentleman in my first post. Some people worry about every little thing.