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mdlmkr 7.62
August 30, 2009, 17:04
Considering the pros and cons of the AUG / MSAR STG556 for a SHTF gun. I like the AUG for compactness and balance. The AR seems more ergonomic and has more aftermarket stuff available to customize for your own preference. Both seem reliable.

Any thoughts?

7.62

olgier
August 30, 2009, 17:14
only 3 cons that i can see against the aug/clones.

#1 you're not gonna shoot them off hand, cause your face is gonna get whacked by hot brass.

#2 slower magazine changes.

#3 parts will be harder to find if it's a long term shtf.

i have both......... like both.

xtremerange
August 30, 2009, 17:55
I find mag changes to be similar. I rip my mags out of the well with my off hand no matter what I am shooting. Saves being surprised my the mag not dropping free as happens with an M16 on occasion.

mdlmkr 7.62
August 30, 2009, 18:03
Originally posted by olgier
only 3 cons that i can see against the aug/clones.

#1 you're not gonna shoot them off hand, cause your face is gonna get whacked by hot brass.

#2 slower magazine changes.

#3 parts will be harder to find if it's a long term shtf.

i have both......... like both.

#1 Do you mean weak side? I do feel that getting wacked in the face by brass when shooting weak side is a flaw in the AUG platform but not insurmountable. Use your weak hand to shoot from your strong side shoulder.

I'm curious how the Aussies like their AUGs

7.62

KBAR04
August 30, 2009, 19:05
I prefer the AUG to the AR, its the only other 5.56 weapon I find to be ergonomic and it is utterly reliable. I was a liaison with both the Aussie and NZ forces in Afghanistan. Both use the AUG and Ive not heard of any problems. They do seem to think the Lithgow version they have is inferior to the Austrian version. The SAS Regiments of both countries use the M4, at least in 2002 they did. I only own Steyr made AUGs so I cant comment on the MSAR.

Andy the Aussie
August 31, 2009, 02:20
Originally posted by mdlmkr 7.62

I'm curious how the Aussies like their AUGs

7.62

From a private message I sent about the same question a little ago....

The F88 (our designation for the Austeyr) has come a long way since it was adopted in the 1980s. I worked on the later part of the SARP (small arms replacement program) that saw the F88 and F89 (Minimi/M249 made here) adopted to replace the SLR/M16A1/F1/BREN and to some degree M60.

Now…to be 100% honest the AUG didn’t actually win the trial. 1st was the Galil, 2nd was the M16A2/M16A2 Carbine and 3rd was the AUG. They didn’t go with the Galil as the Israelis would not license us to make it here (a requirement of the contract), politics (and a little corruption) saw the M16 overlooked and the AUG chosen.

The first weapons delivered by Lithgow were POSs. We returned well over 1000 of them as out of spec and unreliable. This was later attributed to a mistake at Lithgow that saw them manufactured from a set of specification plans not machinist’s plans. I shot lots of the original Steyrs from the trial and these were accurate and reliable rifles. Now the Lithgow made F88 barrels made the Steyr made ones look BAD (they were not at all, the Lithgow made ones were just that good). The factory reps from Steyr did not believe they were standard production till they went and saw for themselves..!!

The rifles that turned out and which are now in service are pretty damn good. The vast majority of F88s in pointy end units are now F88A2 type with a top rail instead of the 1.5x fixed optic. All manner of sights are now used (ELCAN, ACOG, Aimpoint, EOTECH, Trijicon etc). For anyone with any measure of skill with a rifle the original sight was a disappointment although it worked OK for the new shooter. We also now mount them with M203s. They are issued here with both 20 and 16 inch barrels.

We also made (make) them for the Kiwis who issue some with the 12 inch barrel and non folding front grip (I *think* however they buy this barrel assembly direct from Steyr). We trialed the 24inch HB but never went with it. I am in two minds about the use of a bullpup rifle as a service rifle, it has many drawbacks (and pluses) at least we have the option of a left handed setup as opposed to the Brits and their L85s. There is certainly nothing “wrong” with an AUG as long as the individual is comfortable with the platform.

There has just been a Govt grant given to ADI (Australian Defense Industries) to further develop the A3 and A4 versions of the F88, mostly rails and changes to the trigger guard and a integrated fore end that includes and IR laser, light etc. They are here to stay.

Out of interest, the SASR and Commandos use M4s exclusively.

Andy :aug:

sturmgrenadiere
September 01, 2009, 06:54
Andy

That PM seems familiar...

...and it's a girl! I bought that Stery A1 for my boy to have some day, so I guess I better get her an A3...

Ben

olgier
September 01, 2009, 08:29
Originally posted by mdlmkr 7.62


#1 Do you mean weak side? I do feel that getting wacked in the face by brass when shooting weak side is a flaw in the AUG platform but not insurmountable. Use your weak hand to shoot from your strong side shoulder.

I'm curious how the Aussies like their AUGs

7.62

nope i meant off side. IE: right hander switching to left to keep behind cover.
i also refer to it as off side because i shoot both and neither side's weak. :biggrin:

Andy the Aussie
September 01, 2009, 14:54
Originally posted by sturmgrenadiere
Andy

That PM seems familiar...

...and it's a girl! I bought that Stery A1 for my boy to have some day, so I guess I better get her an A3...

Ben ...... I am sure it does mate.... ;)
...and.... CONGRATULATIONS....!!!!!! I hope Mother and Daughter are well ..!!

millersm99
September 01, 2009, 15:39
The almost complete absence of parts in this hemisphere would eliminate the AUG from my SHTF list.

gaijinsamurai
September 01, 2009, 19:56
^ x2. personally, I'd prefer a Galil, but the issue of parts and magazine availability disqualifies it, for the same reason as the AUG.
In a SHTF situation, logistics will be paramount, in the long run.

jdluton
September 02, 2009, 19:11
Plus,
If you get shot and die with a bullpup in your hands the ppl who loot your corpse will certainly think you were ghey. :p



Couldn't resist....... *troll mode off*.....

J. Armstrong
September 02, 2009, 20:29
FAL, of course :D

sturmgrenadiere
September 03, 2009, 08:14
I've met a few British Royal Marines and Legionaires who would love to hear a guy say they were gay due to the fact their rifles were bullpups. Would go very poorly for him. Just something to consider.

ostrobothnian
September 03, 2009, 08:28
I think (at least in the USA) that the AUG is more of a toy whereas the AR is more of a tool. Think parts if you are thinking SHTF. Shit breaks. How easy is it going to be to find parts for an AUG?

JMHO.

jimmad1
September 03, 2009, 11:02
Regards spares for the AUG, ostrobothian makes a valid point. However, a (concerned) heavy user of any weapons platform - especially one for potential SHTF usage - ought to be giving serious thought/taking action to having a stash of spares for any parts likely to fail. Come a SHTF you're your own armorer!

KBAR04
September 03, 2009, 15:34
Ive shot AUGS for over 20 years. Ive personally never had to replace anything. Alot more than I can say for my ARs Ive owned. I do have a spare parts kit for my AUG just in case though. AUG parts are not cheap but they are available. That situation should improve now that Steyr is selling the A3 in the USA and supporting them.

I think you should lay in spares for any weapon you plan to rely on in an "emergency." Yes AR parts are easy to get now..but just last fall when the panic set in they evaporated overnight. So, I dont think parts availability is a major issue. You should stock up in advance not plan on being able to buy stuff in the future if you need it...

lawdog
September 03, 2009, 17:18
Have ya shot the same AUG for 20 years?

KBAR04
September 03, 2009, 17:41
Yes, an A1, I also have one of the new A3s.