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Wil-C
August 30, 2009, 13:05
I was at a shoot a while back and an individual was there firing an M16.
I noticed it wasn't a pre-86 type and got to wondering so I asked him about it. He said it was a registered sear, same as a complete firearm except the sear itself was registered and taxed like a regular NFA item. He said the sears are far less costly than a complete firearm although they still cost around $5000.
Is this correct or did I see "something..."

If I understand it correctly, you purchase a sear with the same paperwork as a complete firearm and then what, install it in a lower?


Do I make the installation myself or does it have to be done via a legal process?
Ie: I purchase a registered/taxed sear then also register the lower or something?

Are there any Class lll stores in the DFW area that deal in this sort've thing?

cavegeo
August 30, 2009, 13:23
Its referred to as a DIAS - Drop In Auto Sear

The DIAS is the only part that is registered. I believe that the lower has to be machined to accept the DIAS. Some early AR would accept these though most have a block to prevent there installation on most AR's.

chromestarhustler
August 30, 2009, 14:27
yes they are a block that fits into the selctor area. and require the lower stop tabs to be machined off, or the selector shimmed out. there was a example on gunbroker not that long ago with lots of execellent pics.

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html

DesertFALrat
August 30, 2009, 15:02
FYI, The price on a DIAS today is more in the 10K+ range.

Wil-C
August 30, 2009, 18:30
Originally posted by DesertFALrat
FYI, The price on a DIAS today is more in the 10K+ range.

How bad is this price compared to a complete NFA firearm? I'm guessing it's perhaps at the least a bit less costly?

cavegeo
August 30, 2009, 18:32
I have seen really nice M-16's go for $20,000.00. YMMV

Wil-C
August 30, 2009, 18:34
Originally posted by Wil-C


How bad is this price compared to a complete NFA firearm? I'm guessing it's perhaps at the least a bit less costly?

Add edit: I can understand the 'sticker shock' however they aren't going to get any cheaper any time soon. Ferocious prices are to be expected when you're contemplating items like this.
I don't see these things ever dropping in price owing to the chances of the '86 act ever being repealed. May as well coin up now instead of 20 years from now when it's possibly even more costly.

cavegeo
August 30, 2009, 18:40
Originally posted by Wil-C


Add edit: I can understand the 'sticker shock' however they aren't going to get any cheaper any time soon. Ferocious prices are to be expected when you're contemplating items like this.
I don't see these things ever dropping in price owing to the chances of the '86 act ever being repealed. May as well coin up now instead of 20 years from now when it's possibly even more costly.


That there is the rub if every the ban is lifted then NFA items will cost no more than any regular semi-auto and people will take a big lose on their NFA items. Many people buy NFA as an investment since they have only gone up since 1986.

Wil-C
August 30, 2009, 20:34
Originally posted by cavegeo



That there is the rub if every the ban is lifted then NFA items will cost no more than any regular semi-auto and people will take a big lose on their NFA items. Many people buy NFA as an investment since they have only gone up since 1986.

I agree with you fully, IF the ban is lifted all NFA will cost no more than regular items. However at this point I don't see anything to indicate that ban being lifted within the next several decades. Even with the recent SCOTUS decision they still left themselves room to weasel out. Put aside the political parties action, or total lack of, on this.
I also agree with you people buy these as an investment, I'm not thinking from an investment standpoint, ie: try to make money on this.
If I make this step and by some miracle that ban got lifted, it's a financial hit I'd be more than willing to take, as it'd mean I could add other things along with everyone else.
I was thinking of what is a way I can get the one or two items I might want that also would have a functional basis without literally spending a fortune.
James was gracious enough to allow me the privilege of running his Sten at the river a couple times (my thanks again James....it is a rare treat for me)
So I know what a Sten is like and whether or not I'd want one........I do severely.
I'm also looking at the MAC-10 given the improvements available for them, both of those are 'relatively' affordable. I hate to use Winnie-the-Pooh logic here "which would you prefer?.......Both" But the Sten is just too neat of an item. So if it comes down to either the Sten or the MAC-10 it'll probably be the Sten.
I thought about the M16 and after that conversation with the individual at the river it got me to thinking. Instead of a down payment on a house, $20K is way beyond anything I could justify for one item alone, half that is barely workable.
Perhaps a registered sear and a registered Sten (most folks have said they run around $3K) would put me around the $10K mark.

cavegeo
August 30, 2009, 20:47
Originally posted by Wil-C
I thought about the M16 and after that conversation with the individual at the river it got me to thinking. Instead of a down payment on a house, $20K is way beyond anything I could justify for one item alone, half that is barely workable.
Perhaps a registered sear and a registered Sten (most folks have said they run around $3K) would put me around the $10K mark.

Wil-C

I have been thinking about a Sterling of late as I purchased a Wise Lite Sterling Sporter that is basicaly a SMG converted to semi-auto and the prices I have been seeing on Gun Broker for a real Sterling have been between 7 and 10K, the tube (reciever) alone to build from a kit is like $4,800.00 plus the cost to have it built. So there is no low cost of entry gun in the NFA world that I am aware of YMMV.

partisan50
August 30, 2009, 21:39
"I agree with you fully, IF the ban is lifted all NFA will cost no more than regular items."


Sorry but not all NFA will be worth the same as regular items, ORIGINAL C&R type items will still hold most of their value since they are no longer available.

DesertFALrat
August 30, 2009, 21:57
The last DIAS I have seen for sale recently on Bowers was $12K.

It got quickly gobbled up. They are typically bought up pretty quick.


STENs go for about $3500-$4000. There are a few listed on there right now.


An M11/9 with a LAGE upper will run you 4-5K.

IMO way more useful than the STEN.



I wouldn't worry about any changes in the laws. It ain't gonna happen.

If you want it, buy it. Don't worry about what the market will do.

matchmakertrading.com
August 31, 2009, 08:37
Best deal going is a FNC and a registered sear/trigger pack for it. More of the full auto parts than host guns, host gun will run you about $3k, another $2k or so for the full auto parts.

And its a FN on top of it all!

Tsm002
August 31, 2009, 14:26
So what happens if your little piece of metal breaks, legally speaking?

I'm guessing that replacing a DIAS isn't as simple as a reweld on, say, an M11.

I could be wrong but damn, some of DIAS' i've seen look like they were made out of whatever metal people had laying around right before 86 went down.

Wil-C
August 31, 2009, 18:40
Originally posted by matchmakertrading.com
Best deal going is a FNC and a registered sear/trigger pack for it. More of the full auto parts than host guns, host gun will run you about $3k, another $2k or so for the full auto parts.

And its a FN on top of it all!

FNC ? What is that & what's it look like? What's it chambered in?

Add edit: does it take AR mags or something special? Anyone got a pic or more info? That sounds like a reasonable price, or I should say a 'reasonable' price relative to these kind's of things. Cavegeo is correct, there is no such thing as an 'introductory' or low-cost price concerning this however a $20K price tag is just too much. Something like this is a lot more workable.

Wil-C
August 31, 2009, 18:42
Originally posted by Tsm002
So what happens if your little piece of metal breaks, legally speaking?

I'm guessing that replacing a DIAS isn't as simple as a reweld on, say, an M11.

I could be wrong but damn, some of DIAS' i've seen look like they were made out of whatever metal people had laying around right before 86 went down.

Thats a really good question & I was wondering the same myself. If it's not a factory sear & something goes 'sproing..' Then what? Are we out $10K+

Wil-C
August 31, 2009, 18:48
Originally posted by DesertFALrat
The last DIAS I have seen for sale recently on Bowers was $12K.

It got quickly gobbled up. They are typically bought up pretty quick.


STENs go for about $3500-$4000. There are a few listed on there right now.


An M11/9 with a LAGE upper will run you 4-5K.

IMO way more useful than the STEN.



I wouldn't worry about any changes in the laws. It ain't gonna happen.

If you want it, buy it. Don't worry about what the market will do.

If the Lage upper you're talking about is the one I saw on another site, I have to admit it really looks like it makes a big difference. Does the Lage upper have the AR foregrip? One-handing a MAC-10 just doesn't seem worthwhile but a foregrip I bet makes a difference.

DesertFALrat
August 31, 2009, 22:41
Originally posted by Wil-C


If the Lage upper you're talking about is the one I saw on another site, I have to admit it really looks like it makes a big difference. Does the Lage upper have the AR foregrip? One-handing a MAC-10 just doesn't seem worthwhile but a foregrip I bet makes a difference.


You can add a foregrip. The upper has a rail attachment on the bottom.

Here is a picture of mine. I also got the 3-lug barrel and have a fast attach bowers suppressor. I had the mount custom made.

DesertFALrat
August 31, 2009, 22:51
Originally posted by Wil-C


FNC ? What is that & what's it look like? What's it chambered in?

Add edit: does it take AR mags or something special? Anyone got a pic or more info? That sounds like a reasonable price, or I should say a 'reasonable' price relative to these kind's of things. Cavegeo is correct, there is no such thing as an 'introductory' or low-cost price concerning this however a $20K price tag is just too much. Something like this is a lot more workable.


Funny you should ask.

I actually just bought one and am currently waiting for the paperwork to come back.

It shoots 5.56 (.223) and takes AR15 mags of any flavor. Even Beta-C mags.

I paid $7500 for mine, but is it like new. Here's the picture.

The sear is in the lower. You can find sears for around $3000, but locating a host semi can be costly (another 3K) and then there is the conversion cost.

You are better off buying one that is converted already. I've seen them sell for as low as 6K recently.

One drawback is there is for all practical purposes, NO AVAILABLE PARTS.

That means if you break a mjor component like a bolt, or burn out a barrel, you might have to buy another host semi to get the parts you need.

There are small parts available, but finding them is PITA.


There is also talk of the possibility of using a FNC sear in the new SCAR, but that may never come to pass...

DesertFALrat
August 31, 2009, 22:56
Added picture of LAGE M11/9

jaykden
September 01, 2009, 01:43
i'm seeing RDIASs going for around 13-14K

im waiting on ATF so i can get my frankford arsenal RR M16 that i paid 9500 for...


i've shot it and it runs like a clock.



the RDIAS is like any other MG in that, if something breaks, as long as the serial number is still intact it can be repaired legally. the sears i have seen photos of have the SN on the body, so its unlikely to re wrecked beyond repair.

infact, there is a thread on arfcom about replacing the trip on a sear when they wear out. same could be said if it broke (thats what would fail if anything would).

as RDIAS is nice because you can use it in any lower, plus, some guys are afraid of a KB, and a little thingy in the lower is less likely to get blown up than the actual receiver.

on the other hand, some guys say stay away from RDIAS and RLL (lightening links) because ATF could someday decide these "arn't firearms" confiscate them.

i HIGHLY doubt this would ever happen. but it could i 'spose...


i haven't even got my M16 yet and i'm already thinking of an M11/9 with lage conversion....

i'd have to sell my .50 BMG though.... don't know if i want to do that yet....

Lee Carpentieri
September 01, 2009, 04:13
Some of you guys are having real pipe dreams if you think Congress is going to repeal the May of 1986 GCA. Remember this which I know for a FACT, Alot of Congress people and Senators own NFA weapons and if you think they are prepared to take a major hit on their weapons, Good luck.

A Colt M16A2 was in the 20K range for awhile, But a standard M16A2 rifle has dropped to around 17K, Now something like a Colt M16A2 RO635 9mm SMG can sell for 20 to 25K and a Colt RO 629 M16A1 factory Commando can go from 17 to 20K and then a Colt RO 750 Light Machinegun can sell upwards from 22 to 27K and the Colt RO M231 Port firing weapon can sell for 22 to 25K. But as of late you can find Colt M16A1 Carbines for around 14K.

Now if you have about 9500.00 Plus the 200.00 for the tax stamp and the dealers fees and shipping if you have to pay it and shop around you can find a Sendra or Bushmaster M16 which is a semi-auto converted prior to May of 1986 which the lowers were copies of M16A1's In semi auto, But converted by numerous Class 2's back in the day. Just stay away from the Olyies and SGW's as they Aren't mil- Spec designed or built receivers,The side of the receiver walls are thinner than a Colt, Bushmaster or Sendra receiver walls.

Now as far as a good starter weapon for a NFA purchase would be a SWD M11 9mm, Cost from 3 to 3.5K and once you have it you can do a mulitude of things with it and 9mm is still some cheap shooting these days. The only thing that wears out quicker than the barrel on an FNC is the firing pins which a few vendors like DSA sell and theirs another vendor called Vulcan Imports that gets FNC parts from time to time from Belgium and Malaysia.
Now as far as a DIAS at 12.5K, To me it,s not worth it, Then theres the Lightning Link, Which once installed in a semi-auto AR will make it go full-auto. They sell for around 7.5K right now, Thiers also paddles that will make it run select fire.
The two most popular NFA boards are www.Sturmgewehr.com and www.Subguns.com
I've owned NFA weapons for 33 years now and have had as many as 58 at one time and now down to 13 MGS,1 DD, 1 SBR and 1 silencer/suppressor.
Shop around and save your money as I feel that with the declining labor market and people needing money for different reasons the NFA market will come down in prices somewhat within the next 3 years.

jaykden
September 01, 2009, 18:49
Originally posted by Lee Carpentieri
... Just stay away from the Olyies and SGW's as they Aren't mil- Spec designed or built receivers,The side of the receiver walls are thinner than a Colt, Bushmaster or Sendra receiver walls.




so, have you had an oly/FA/SGW lower that failed you? like, you know, experienced it yourself? or is this just "what they say"?


the oly lower i bought is really nice. don't know about "milspec" stuff and whatnot, but it runs like a raped ape and is in great condition. pin holes look like new.

its just a real bugger waiting on ATF...

Lee Carpentieri
September 02, 2009, 01:32
jaykden, Experienced it yourself? Only about 23 times that I've worked on Oly/SGW lowers in both semi and F/A for friends. Back in the early eighties when OLY went into business they had SGW make their receivers with the Oly name roll marked on them. Thier not made with Mil-spec 7075-T6 aluminum, Something less harder than Mil-Spec, It was one of the reasons that KNS came out with their anti-walking pins due to the thinner walls of the Oly/SGW lowers and people not knowing how to properly change out a trigger group without wallowing the trigger hammer pin holes or the holes themsevles wallowing out due to the walls being so thin and extented usage. If yours are tight, Be thankful it wasn't used much. back in the late seventies and early eighties SGW and Oly were considered the bottom of the barrel and cheaper than a Colt or Bushmaster and Sendra bought their lowers from Bushmaster who in turn had them made by LMT. The old commercial Frankford Arsenal used to buy from Bushmaster until they screwed Bushmaster and then started buying from Oly until the owner of Frankford Arsenal was found in a Philly river with a bullet in the back of his head back in the eighties due to owing the Columbian/Cuban cocaine cowboys alot of money. I've been involed in the NFA industry for over 33 years now and have owned over 60 NFA weapons and devices. Lee.

jaykden
September 02, 2009, 11:30
ok ok ok

wasn't trying to make you out as a liar or anything, just sorting out hearsay, you know... "I've heard they are crap..." type of thing.


are you saying that franford arsenal marked OLYs are a different receiver than SGW marked OLYs?


fact is, the frankford i bought runs great, i already have all the KNS pins to install when i get it, so i should be good to go.

Wil-C
September 02, 2009, 19:23
Originally posted by DesertFALrat



Funny you should ask.

I actually just bought one and am currently waiting for the paperwork to come back.

It shoots 5.56 (.223) and takes AR15 mags of any flavor. Even Beta-C mags.

I paid $7500 for mine, but is it like new. Here's the picture.

The sear is in the lower. You can find sears for around $3000, but locating a host semi can be costly (another 3K) and then there is the conversion cost.

You are better off buying one that is converted already. I've seen them sell for as low as 6K recently.

One drawback is there is for all practical purposes, NO AVAILABLE PARTS.

That means if you break a mjor component like a bolt, or burn out a barrel, you might have to buy another host semi to get the parts you need.

There are small parts available, but finding them is PITA.


There is also talk of the possibility of using a FNC sear in the new SCAR, but that may never come to pass...

That looks like a miniature FAL, that is sharp looking.
Why the no-parts situation? Import restrictions or something? I wonder if that's why it's less costly than other types? It does look nice, hows it shoot?
Still it being less than half an AR, and an FN sure does have it's appeal, also it looking like an FAL........10 bonus points for that.
Any ideas what makes the barrel susceptible to burning out, assuming it's more susceptible than say an M16 or something along those lines? I understand if you get to "enthusiastic" with an automatic weapon it's going to heat up and you can overdo it. Is the FNC more so than others?

DesertFALrat
September 02, 2009, 21:42
I'm still waiting for my paperwork to clear, so I don't how it shoots yet.

The lack of parts as I understand it is due to the fact that all of the C3 FNC's in the US are converted sear guns and there were not that many semi's imported originally (<10000), thus a general lack of parts...

Plus, I guess there is only two or three manufacturers of FNC's in the world.
I think Sweden, Indonesia, and FN in Belgium.

Perhaps the import restrictions come into play as well. I don't know.
I've been trying to find that out myself.


Spare barrels are non-existent. Supposedly, Green Mountain is working on a barrel for an FNC, but ?????

As far as them wearing out, well, all barrels wear out eventually.
FNC barrels are thin, so if you aren't careful you could probably turn it into a sewer pipe with a 100 round Beta mag.

I would think if you were reasonable with the trigger it will last at least as long as an AR barrel.

Lee Carpentieri
September 16, 2009, 17:58
quote jaykden


Are you saying that franford arsenal marked OLYs are a different receiver than SGW marked OLYs?
Nope, Samething, The frankford if marked Oly is an SGW, Oly never made lowers, SGW made them for Oly with the Oly name on them, Frankford bought semi-auto lowers and did the machine work in house to convert the receiver to a transferable MG receiver.

Now a little insight about frankford Arsenal, They used to buy their lowers and parts from Bushmaster, But after awhile frankford got into bushmaster for about a 100K and Bushmaster cut them off and sued them. So frankford arsenal went to Oly who didn't know any better and Frankford Arsenal's owner did the same to the owner of Oly. About a month after Oly cut off frankford Arsenal the owner of frankford Arsenal was found dead in a canal in Philly Pa. with a bullet to the back of his head. Rumor had it that the owner of frankford arsenal was into the cocaine cowboys in Miami for about a 250K worth of cocaine or was supposed to trade illegal made machineguns for the Cocaine. Either way that was a long time ago. I knew the owner of frankford arsenal on a business level and that was it, No personal friendship involved. His gunsmith back then is the current owner of Gunsmoke Enterprizes which is another Ar15 manufacture that buys lowers from other companies with the Enterprize name and logo on it and assembles them for their own clients and retail sector.

The only real problem with Olys are that back in the late seventies and up until the mid 1980's alot of people would buy M16 trigger groups and modify them to semi-auto specs or do a partial modifaction to the parts and would still have the weapon go off in burst every once in awhile. The other problem was that sometimes the trigger hammer holes were drilled out of alignment and the Oly's wouldn't cycle properly at all, So most people would sell the weapon and let the next person worry about it including transferable MG's.

jaykden
September 16, 2009, 18:30
thanks for the insight lee.

olgier
September 16, 2009, 18:45
jay did you get that Frankford from the ME/NH area? saw one for sale a month ago for 9500.00 had a F.A. registered lower and bushy upper on it.

jaykden
September 17, 2009, 01:47
nah, mine came from texas....

still sitting at my dealers place in juneau..

gunna call ATT tomorrow to check on the status again, getting close i think.

Buddy Lee
September 17, 2009, 14:56
Originally posted by jaykden
nah, mine came from texas....

still sitting at my dealers place in juneau..

gunna call ATT tomorrow to check on the status again, getting close i think.

Why? What do ya think Ma Bell is gonna do for ya?

:wink: :D

Buddy Lee

jaykden
September 17, 2009, 16:17
heh... oops!


i'm going to use ATT to get ahold of ATF

hows that???

:D

jaykden
September 17, 2009, 16:18
also, called them up...

the form 4 is still pending, since july 7th...

hopefully soon

K.O.A.M.
September 18, 2009, 10:10
Originally posted by DesertFALrat


There is also talk of the possibility of using a FNC sear in the new SCAR, but that may never come to pass...

I can only hope. I'd spring for that in a heartbeat. It would also send the prices on the sears up.

perdurabo
September 28, 2009, 13:47
I have an FNC sear gun (Curtis Higgins sear, folder, 3rd burst trigger pack) that I've been considering selling for the past couple years but it looks like the Obama boom didn't do anything to increase NFA prices at all... and the economic downturn has actually made prices on many NFA guns DROP.

For awhile back in 2006/2007 I was seeing quite a few FNCs on the subguns.com classifieds go for more than $8k. Now, it looks like most of the very same guns with the same options (folder, 3rd burst), never seem to sell for more than $7k unless they are damned near unfired condition.

I personally absolutely will not part with my FNC for a penny less than $8k... although I might consider a 100% straight trade for one of those BRP STG 76 or STG 34k 9mm subguns that take suomi drums. I've put around 3k rounds through it, but it still runs like a top. I'll even throw in a 120rd Chinese drum mag and a Bruegger & Thomet rail. I think the NFA market has slowed considerably and isnt likely to pick up again until more high rollers have more disposable income to toss on something that burns overpriced ammo at 600rpm.

partisan50
September 28, 2009, 14:51
"There is also talk of the possibility of using a FNC sear in the new SCAR, but that may never come to pass..."



Since the FNC sear will not drop into a SCAR (with out modification to host and sear) and because of that the ATF stated last year that it was a no go!

DesertFALrat
September 28, 2009, 23:16
Originally posted by partisan50
"There is also talk of the possibility of using a FNC sear in the new SCAR, but that may never come to pass..."



Since the FNC sear will not drop into a SCAR (with out modification to host and sear) and because of that the ATF stated last year that it was a no go!




The FNC host is modified, so by that standard we wouldn't be able to convert the guns we have.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match here, but AFAIK a prototype has never been built or submitted, so no one knows if one could be made.

The only "official word" was from a "what if" letter, and we all know how those get answered bt BATFE.

SO, I wouldn't go so far to say it is impossible.

Improbable, yes. Impossible, no.

One could make the arguement that the SCAR is an FNC type rifle, and if a smart builder could figure out a way to get the sear to work in the SCAR without altering the SCAR's registered part or making it not function as originally designed once the sear is removed, then just maybe it could happen.

Is it a longshot? Yes. Absolutely. I bet someone tries it soon.

faldoc
October 06, 2009, 11:10
Regarding SGW lowers:
I had an old SGW lower which I made into a carbine, and with not much shooting the FCG holes egged out. In fact when I sent the receiver back to Olyarms for refinishing they said they would just replace it for safety issues with a new one (same serial number) for $100.
You can't do that with a MG, so some folks have inserts put into the holes.

RDIAS have gone up in value since it gives more caliber choices in recent years, and if your rifle caliber upper KBs you don't ruin the registered part.