Blown Primer

[Frenchkat]

After carrying an M16 around for years and owning and building ARs for a long time and having fired tens of thousands of rounds, I saw my 1st blown primer today.

Wasn't my rifle. I was at our local range and it was another shooter with a new Bushmaster M4 style. I overheard him with one of the range staff asking about the problem and what to do about it. The range guy, while good at was he does, wan't that familiar with the AR series.

I asked if I could take a look. After ensuring the rifle was unloaded, the selector wouldn't move to the safe position even with the hammer cocked, I seperated the upper and lower. I could tell that the trigger wasn't reset, like I said the selector wouldn't move either. The hammer was cocked, but the trigger wasn't reset. There was just a tiny bit of movement in the trigger.

There were a couple of loose rounds on the table, they had Lake City headstamps and didn't appear to be anything other then factory ammo.

I suspected the problem might be a weak disconector spring. I happened to have a bag with some small tools and extra parts including the spring with me.

I popped out the hammer pin and checked the trigger, still not much movement and still wasn't able to get the selector to move.

Popped out the trigger spring and romoved the trigger. The selector would now move. Checked out the trigger, looked OK, but checked the disconector spring anyway. Still looked OK.

Then I checked out the lower and saw what I at first, took to be a pin on the inside of the receiver. Touched it with my finger and it moved. I knew then I had found my 1st blown primer.

After checking with the owner of the rifle, he indicated he bought the ammo there at the range and we learned it's reloaded locally.

I've always tried to stay away from questionable ammo, but thought this was pretty bad, that the range is selling ammo that may have problems.

The owner and I both learned something today.

[W.E.G.]

Based on your description, you cannot conclude that this was a "blown" primer.

All you have described so far is a primer that simply fell out.

In my opinion, a "blown primer" is a primer that is forced out of the case by excessive pressure, and is usually detected by a kaboom-like incident; or at least scorching around the headstamp area of the case, and scorching of the boltface.

Also, distinguish this from a "pierced primer," where the primer stays in place, but the firing-pin indentation is pierced, so as to allow gas to vent out of the hole at the point of the firing-pin indentation. This usually scorches the tip of the firing pin, and tends to erode (enlarge) the firing pin channel as it meets the boltface.

With that many thousands of rounds under your belt, I'm surprised you haven't seen this sort of thing before. It happens fairly often.

[Frenchkat]

By not having experienced one before, excuse me for my in-accurate discription.

What I meant by "blown" was that it was dented from the firing pin and part of the side was split.

I guess I've been lucky. I try to stick to either factory loaded or factory reloaded such as Georiga Arms.

Except for several non-firing rounds, the only other ammo failure I've experienced was a .308 split case in one of my FALs.

I take that back, I got hold of a 1000 rounds of reloads from a local surplus store for a very good price. I didn't get through a full magizine with out the rounds failing to seat properly in the chamber. Ended up getting a refund for 987 rounds.

[tac-40]

French Kat, most of my ammo failures experienced have come from Georgia Arms ammo. Not banging on the quality of GA ammo, but they load brass from various sources including range pickups. There is no telling how many times a piece of brass has been reloaded. Most reloaders will tell you that 3 -5 times is the most you can get before something starts to break.

I still use Georgia Arms ammo for my range trips, but do not use it when I need 100% performance, like in matches, just for that reason.

[W.E.G.]

OK, the split side is something of an indication.

Although, it could be a function of an enlarged primer pocket more so than a dangerous over-load.

As you may have noticed from some of my other posts regarding ammo failures, I'm something of a stickler for the terminology. The language we employ will define whether the ammo outright unsafe, or just simply unreliable.

Sounds like the ammo in question is at least unreliable.

I question the reliability of ANY rifle ammo that is constructed on a progressive press, using previously-fired brass, and that seats the primer as part of the "progressive" process. Its simply impossible to have any "feel" for how the primer seats when you are doing every reloading step under the sun all at once with each stroke of the press.

I seat all my primers using the Lee hand tool. If I mash a primer, or if one seats too easily, I know it right away.

[chromestarhustler]

you shoot georgia arms ammo and havent had a bad round or blow a primer out. buy 2 lottery tickets today. one for you and one for me. cause you got to be one of the luckiest guys around

[gobbler]

I have never had a rifle primer to blow out, but had many pistol primers. Either from enlarged primer pockets from brass fatigue due to excessive reloading or way too high powder charge. Either way, you know when you have one, especially in a revolver. If it is from overpressure, the primer will show flattening, plus being backed out.

gobbler

[idsubgun]

Originally posted by W.E.G.
I seat all my primers using the Lee hand tool. If I mash a primer, or if one seats too easily, I know it right away.

Gary,

I just de-primed 6000 .223 cases and 3000 .308 cases. Please fly out here as soon as possible, with your Lee hand tool, and help seat the primers of all these cases. I have the RCBS hand primer tool and we should be able to get through them in under a week. :wink:

All kidding a side, I recently shot some handloads (mine) that I had reloaded several years ago with my Dillon 650, for my full auto FNC. I experienced this same thing with the primers.
The brass used was from various sources, and with various number of reloads. I know for a fact that they weren't over charged. I do know some had been reloaded many times because back then, ammo components were cheap, and running a mag through the FNC as fast as you can was cheap and FUN!

Anyhow, while firing these reloads through an AR-15, it locked up on me and and the fault was blown primers, as in the primer pockets were too big and they simply slip out when fired. This sounds exactly what you (Frenchkat) experienced.
Like tac-40 says, just don't use it for your "go to" ammo.

BTW Gary, I'm planning on priming all that brass on my Dillon but I'm not too worried about it as all this brass is once fired military brass. It should be good and tight, even after I swage all of it. You're more then welcome to come out and help in the swaging process if you want.

[instr8]

Ever had a pierced primer wherein the small sliver that is displaced is blown back into the bolt through the firing pin hole?

[hagar]

There is always the superglue solution when the pockets get a little loose. I am NOT kidding..:eek:

[jerrymrc]

Originally posted by hagar
There is always the superglue solution when the pockets get a little loose. I am NOT kidding..:eek:

I told you not to give away the secret.:tongue: :beer:

[chromestarhustler]

you guys are scaring me

[Shootability]

Originally posted by jerrymrc


I told you not to give away the secret.:tongue: :beer:

I use Green Locktite - shhh don't tell.

[CTW]

I tend to be cautious about questionable ammo these days. I bought some 5.56 ammo from a army surplus store that was labeled as ss109 and had the ammo for a few years. Fast foward to a couple months ago I had picked up another lower and had a new gun to try out. I did not have time to load up some ammo so I grabbed a couple of boxes of UMC and the other stuff and went to the range. I fired two boxes of factory with no problems and then started to use the so called ss109. I put ten rounds in the mag and started shootin at steel plates at 100 yards. My fourth round the case blew on the part just above the rim blowing the base plate off the mag with the spring. The first two rounds after the blown one split the case necks and were spilling powder all over the inside of the mag. Luckily I was not injured and my gun went back together with no functioning problems. Upon inspecting the lake city case it was evident that the case had been resized numerous times because of the evident ring around the base. I tryed to go back to the store, but they were packed up and out of business. I was never told this was reloaded ammo, so now I always inspect ammo closely if I dont reload it and never shoot someone elses reloads.

[[486]]

Originally posted by solvability


I use Green Locktite - shhh don't tell.

I use blue! Though that is mostly because I got a leaky container of it and wanna use it up... Any problems with the green stuff into the primer and making it not work? I remember that stuff was pretty thin, maybe it'd get past the seal of the case and primer's press fit.

[Shootability]

Originally posted by [486]


I use blue! Though that is mostly because I got a leaky container of it and wanna use it up... Any problems with the green stuff into the primer and making it not work? I remember that stuff was pretty thin, maybe it'd get past the seal of the case and primer's press fit.

No issues - I think it does waterproof the primer - I might experiment and see if I covered the primer side in loctite if it mattered - I bet not.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by idsubgun
...I just de-primed 6000 .223 cases and 3000 .308 cases. Please fly out here as soon as possible, with your Lee hand tool, and help seat the primers of all these cases....

If you personally go through 9000 rounds of reloads in a short period of time, you probably need to make some concessions in quality control.

In my heyday of National Trophy Infantry Team competitions, I was going through about 3500 rounds of .223 per year. A primer lock-up (or any other ammo failure) would have been a major issue. I was able to seat primers in about 500 cases at a sitting before the Lee tool started to raise blisters on my hands. I always did it while watching TV, and the time-issue was never an issue.

I did all my brass-prep in an incremental and methodical manner over the course of the winter prior to competition season. Every case was trimmed, and inspected. Every primer seated carefully. Every powder charge thrown manually, and inspected visually before seating a bullet. It was about winning.

[idsubgun]

I do all my case prep in stages as well. I use an universal decapper die, then the first tumbling (I tumble before decapping if the brass is extremely dirty), then swaging if needed, a second tumbling if needed, then sizing, after that, case length check and sizing if necessary and then I can start priming/reloading.

Unless they are my "precision" loads, I do everything through my Dillon. For precision loads, I use my RCBS Rockchucker and manually weigh every load. My Dillon throws a very accurate powder charge but I check it every so often on my scale(s). Quality control isn't an issue with Dillon reloaders. If you use the same force every throw, you get consistent loads. I ran several thousand Dillon reloads through my FNC without one mishap. This latest loss of primers actually surprised me when it happened but that brass was very old, with many reloads. I remember cleaning primer pockets with a scrapper once and think these are the cases that lost the primers. When I reload the brass from these rounds, I will definitely hand prime them to make sure I can feel the primer seat. I may even just toss them into the scrap brass barrel and recycle them as I have plenty of other brass cases.

I have the RCBS hand priming tool so I may sit in front of the TV as you said, and prime all these cases I've prepared. This is mainly blasting ammo so there's no hurry. I have plenty of "go to" ammo if needed.

I'm waiting for a 100,000 primer order to come in so I can start doing this. I wanted to put CCI military primers in them.

[tac-40]

Originally posted by solvability

I use Green Locktite - shhh don't tell.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I use blue! Though that is mostly because I got a leaky container of it and wanna use it up... Any problems with the green stuff into the primer and making it not work? I remember that stuff was pretty thin, maybe it'd get past the seal of the case and primer's press fit.

That is the easy way out. For reliability and funtionability, I peen the primer pockets to insure consistant primer seating pressure.

Just make sure you peen before seating and not vice versa.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[[486]]

Originally posted by tac-40


Just make sure you peen before seating and not vice versa.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
:rofl:

I just use it to stick primers into berdan brass, it works great, no gas gets by...

No issues - I think it does waterproof the primer - I might experiment and see if I covered the primer side in loctite if it mattered - I bet not.
The green seems like it'd waterproof very well, I'll have to get the bottle out and waterproof the stored ammo, I dunno if old PMP ammo was sealed...