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Prototype Services
August 11, 2009, 14:26
Guys, thinking of finally taking the NFA plunge with a SBR.

Any specs on how big the engraving must be? Can first initial and last name be used?

Other ???s to come.....

SAF59
August 12, 2009, 13:59
As you intend to make a SBR, when approved need to provide this information on the barrel in a conspicuous place. Under the barrel near the muzzle works in most cases. Your name (or recognized abbreviation), city and state (two letter abbreviation is okay) of manufacture to this minimum requirement. Minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch.



http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;rgn=div5;view=text;node=27%3A3.0.1.2.4; idno=27;sid=34cc0c7cadfe2548551ee4511f0dd1e9;cc=ec fr#27:3.0.1.2.4.5.21.2

§ 479.102 How must firearms be identified?

(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and
(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases).
(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.
(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or impracticable.
(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.
(f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.
(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.
(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1140–0050)
[T.D. ATF–461, 66 FR 40601, Aug. 3, 2001, as amended by ATF–11F, 73 FR 57242, Oct. 2, 2008]

ActionYobbo
August 12, 2009, 22:11
As you intend to make a SBR, when approved need to provide this information on the barrel in a conspicuous place. Under the barrel near the muzzle works in most cases.

I dont see how that is correct when its the receiver thats being registered not the barrel.

Prototype Services
August 13, 2009, 00:20
I found the info tonight. I can use

J. Doe
Atlanta, Ga

And yes, the above barrel info in not correct. I already know locations on the receiver.

1/16" tall, depth of >.003"

I was going to go with CLEO signoff, but now I am thinking of using a Trust.

SAF59
August 13, 2009, 07:07
Originally posted by Prototype Services


And yes, the above barrel info in not correct. I already know locations on the receiver.



Your name,city and state can be on the barrel, receiver, or frame. Sorry for any confusion as I typically put it underneath the barrel for a SBR.

ActionYobbo
August 13, 2009, 16:02
Your name,city and state can be on the barrel, receiver, or frame. Sorry for any confusion as I typically put it underneath the barrel for a SBR.

can you show where in the regs it says that its legal to put the registered receiver information on the barrel.

I am not trying to be a PIA but I have gone over the regs and it says receiver. I want to put the info on my barrel but its not permanantly attatched to the receiver.can you show where in the regs it says its ok to put the markings on a rifle barrel. that would make life easier for me as I have no room on the receive (engraved) to put the info .

SAF59
August 13, 2009, 17:00
can you show where in the regs it says that its legal to put the registered receiver information on the barrel.

It doesn't.

ActionYobbo

I think your point of confusion is this:
If you make a SBR, your name, city and state can go on either the barrel, receiver, or frame. The receiver your using for the SBR, unless you made it yourself, will already have the manufacturer's name, city and state. It will also have a serial #. The manufacturer's receiver markings will be recorded on the form 1, hence, it will be registered with that receiver as a SBR. You do not need to duplicate the receiver markings on any other part of the gun. With a SBR you must put YOUR name, city and state somewhere, as mentioned above, because applying for a form1 to build a SBR makes YOU a firearms manufacturer (maker).

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r176/SAF59/Name.jpg

ActionYobbo
August 13, 2009, 21:46
I think your point of confusion is this:

you are telling me if I was to make a sbr from a rifle then in the case of an ar15 I could just mark the information on the upper. or in the case of a FAL I could mark the information on the lower. what about a blaster rifle with 3 different barrels what barrel do I put the information on.

SAF59
August 14, 2009, 13:46
Originally posted by ActionYobbo


you are telling me if I was to make a sbr from a rifle then in the case of an ar15 I could just mark the information on the upper. YES

or in the case of a FAL I could mark the information on the lower. YES


what about a blaster rifle with 3 different barrels what barrel do I put the information on.

All or none if your markings are on the receiver or frame. Three different barrels of the same length as recorded on your form 1 is okay because you can only have one on at a time. A word of caution here and this is a guess. If they are differing lengths you better have the shortest length recorded on your form 1.
I would get a second and third opinion about differing lengths or email ATF about that.

ActionYobbo
August 14, 2009, 14:36
these are not my answers when SAF59 quoted me he added his answers to what he quoted from me.............


you are telling me if I was to make a sbr from a rifle then in the case of an ar15 I could just mark the information on the upper. YES

or in the case of a FAL I could mark the information on the lower. YES


what about a blaster rifle with 3 different barrels what barrel do I put the information on.

All or none if your markings are on the receiver or frame. Three different barrels of the same length as recorded on your form 1 is okay because you can only have one on at a time. A word of caution here and this is a guess. If they are differing lengths you better have the shortest length recorded on your form 1.
I would get a second and third opinion about differing lengths or email ATF about that.



all of the above answers are wrong.. better get a lawyer son and make it a real good one dont drop the soap....

if the barrel is removable the information has to be on the receiver. in the case of the ar15 and the blaster the information must be on the receiver the lower for the ar15 if it was a fal it would have to be on the upper but the barrel might be ok because it not removable.
if in the case of the blaster if you did engrave the information on more than 1 barrel you have made more than 1 sbr with 1 tax stamp so one of them is unregistered.

be careful because its a big fine and a sore ass for those who use the guess so method.

partisan50
August 28, 2009, 13:19
Check here ...

http://forum.pafoa.org/nfa-class-3-title-ii-34/19708-current-atf-marking-requirements-nfa-items.html


I have received quite a few emails about this info, so i figured i'd post a sticky for reference.

These are the current marking requirements that must be stamped or engraved on NFA items when they are created.
(The requirements are found in US Code Title 27 CFR 479 and are the same if you are a importer, manufacturer of firearms for sale, or making NFA items as a non 02/07 MFR)

simply put:
- You must mark the newly made NFA firearm with the S/N, Model Name or Number, *your* Name, City, State and the caliber or gauge. If you used the S/N, Model and caliber from the original Title I firearm, then you're already half-way there as far as markings go ...

- Accepted abbreviations may be used for your name (i.e., your ititials), city & state. Ex: John Q. Public, Anywhere, PA can be marked as JQ Public, ANY PA.

- The S/N must be marked on the receiver or frame, and must be no less than 1/16" in height and no less than 0.003" deep.

- The remaining information (name, city, state, model and caliber) may be placed EITHER on the receiver OR the barrel, and must be no less than 0.003" deep. There are no minimum height requirements for these markings.

- All required markings must be in Roman letters (English) and Arabic numerals (1,2,3 ...), and be "wholly unobstructed from plain view". In other words, they may not be placed under handguards, grips, inside mag wells, etc.


(thanks to Howard @ Subguns for his often posted "simple" version above)



now for the ridiculous long annoying legalese version form the ATF ruling and law adjustment.

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 27, Volume 2]
[Revised as of April 1, 2003]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 27CFR479.102]
[Page 188-189]
TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS
CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
PART 479--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table of Contents
Subpart G--Registration and Identification of Firearms
Sec. 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must
legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller
than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain
additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information
includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
(or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the
firearm; and
[[Page 189]]
(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in
which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized
abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of
business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see
Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be
measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges.
The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this
section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of
the character impression bottoms (bases).
(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon
receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate,
showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder
the effective administration of this part.
(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize
other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter
application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving,
casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or
impracticable.
(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a
complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed
of by you must be identified as required by this section.
(f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for
the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete
firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you
must be identified as required by this section.
(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of
parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts
defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application
from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification
is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this
part.


as a note, the ATF NFA Handbook is available HERE, the issue is addressed in chapter 6 and 7...marking requirements are the same for both licensees and nonlicensees who manufacture a NFA firearm.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/

the ATF currently has this in thier regulations book under Chaper 7 "Manufacturing of NFA Firearms"

Section 7.4 The identification of firearms.

7.4.1 Serial numbers.
Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm’s frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120

The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be
wholly unobstructed from plain view.

For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch.

7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number?

Alpha characters (letters), for example a name,
are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or
letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number).

ATF takes the view that marking “legibly” means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121

Deviations from this requirement have been found to
seriously impair ATF’s ability to trace firearms involved in crime.

7.4.2 Additional information.

Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view.

For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.
The additional information includes:
(1) The model, if such designation has been made;
(2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place
of business.122

7.4.3 Measuring the depth of markings. The depth of all markings is measured from the flat surface
of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers is measured as the distance
between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases).
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