DOUBLE BARRELLS-NEED HELP

[michaels]

YEARS AGO I USED TO WORK WITH A GUNSMITH AND WE WOULD TAKE THE SAVAGE-STEVENS SHOTGUNS AND CUT THE BARRELS SHORTER-TO LEGAL LENGTH ONLY-FILL IN BETWEEN THE BARRELS WITH LEAD,TAP THE FRT.SIGHT,PUT IN A NEW SIGHT,SAND BLAST,AND PARKERIZE.RE-DO THE STOCKS WITH TRU-OIL AND PUT SLING EYES IN.WITH THE PARKERIZING,SHORTNING,AND THE GREY CONTRAST OF THE PARKERIZING AGAINST THE REDONE WOOD THESE GUNS LOOKED GOOD AND FUNCTIONED WELL.WE ALSO PUT CUSTOM PACMEYER BUTT-STOCK CUSHIONS ON THEM.THE WILD HOG HUNTERS HERE IN GA BOUGHT EVERYONE WE COULD MAKE,THE REASON THEY BOUGHT SO MANY IS BECAUSE THE HOG HUNTER USED DOGS AND HE HAD TO HAVE SOMETHING LIGHTER THAT HE MIGHT HAVE TO USE "QUICKLY" I AM RAMBLING TOO MUCH---THE QUESTION I HAVE IS,DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN FIND OLD DOUBLE BARRELS CHEAP,OR NEW ONES CHEAP?I HAVE FOUND A FEW BUT I DON'T WANT TO CUT A WINCHESTER,FOXX OR REMINGTON.CHEAP GOOD DOUBLES--ANY HELP WILL BE GREATLY APPRECIATED:D

[xdshooter]

For cheap double barrels, Remington imports the Baikal double barrels, and calls them their SPR series, and Stoeger makes a series of double barrels and coach guns.

You can get either for about $350-$400, and both are available in 20 inch coach guns. For the price, it doesn't seem worthwhile to cut down a decent 28 inch barrel 9 1/2 inches. Especially when the new guns come with interchangeable chokes (on some models).

I bought my wife a Stoeger nickel finish 20 gauge last year for her birthday, hoping she would get me the matching 12 gauge for mine. No such luck yet.

Now if someone would make a modern 3 1/2 inch 10 gauge coach gun (in nickel or stainless) I'd be all over it.

now turn your caps lock off :)

[Ron Walker]

If you're buying these to modify and then resell, be advised that under current ATFE rules, you must have a manufacturer's license. Ron

[yarro]

You do not need a manufacturers license. A regular FFL is all that is needed unless you are modifying the shotgun barrels to less that 18" or the overall length less than 26.5". You used to be able to find Savage 311 shotguns fairly cheap 250-300 for a real nice one, but right now it would seem that anything that goes bang without killing the user is selling for a premium. I just sold a 38spc S&W that I paid $150 two years ago for $400. I still have the nicer one that I paid $125 for about four years ago. Same thing happened during the Clinton years, but not so severe and I didn't have liberals at work asking me which AR to buy.

-yarro

[michaels]

Appreciate the info fellas, the shotguns will be modified in accordance with the new laws,glad you reminded me,I try to forget.I will have to show some pics when we get one finished:sleep:

[Ron Walker]

You do not need a manufacturers license
Really??!! A good friend of mine has a pending court date because he was modifying guns for resale. He had a FFL, but they are charging him for manufacturing without a license. Michaels, barracks lawyers are a dime a dozen. You get what you pay for. Just please be sure of the law before you start. They even took my friend's personal guns including some from his grandfather, and are keeping them. A word to the wise is sufficient. Ron

[michaels]

Ron,you are right about that topic,here in southeast Ga,{a few years back}it was not uncommon for someone to walk into the gun repair shops and sporting goods stores with shot guns to have the barrels cut off and modified some while you waited.All this was done by the book at the time it was 18.5 shortest barrel length and an overall length of ?.I haven't checked the laws lately,but you can bet I will.You see I have a younger brother who chose to wear a badge,and you can bet I will have a conference with him first.You are right,nowadays it doesn't pay to not know the gun laws.Thanks for the input.Oh,we are looking into the threading dies to put Rem or Winchester type choke tubes in.

[Ron Walker]

If the customer brings it to you for redoing, it is legal, as long as applicable laws are observed for it's modification. It is when YOU buy them redo them and resell them that the trouble arises. They really want and need those license fees, with the economy, and all. Ron

[dbl-haul]

I would contact ATF and ask them for the information about manufacturing, legal lengths, etc.

[Regal Beagal]

As far are as decent doubles, I would also recommend the Savage/ Stevens 311 SxS. Stevens also made these for Sears and other store brands. I don't have my reference book besides me for the Sears, J.C Higgins and other store brand model #'s but most were still classified "311". These are well built, utilitarian shotguns. I still see them in pawn shops and gun stores for around the $200 and above mark. All parts are still available through Numrich and other sources. Definitely check the ATF laws. It's a whole new environment out there and the guberment agencies are beginning to flex their muscles and puff out their chests.

[michaels]

I had forgotten about the Sears and other merchant sellers,I lucked up 2 days ago and bought 2 for 300.00-I will have trouble "customizing " one it doesn't look like it has ever been fired!!!I will probably just put some oil on it and "stick it back in the HOLE".The one's I like to customize have seen some times,cracked stocks,rusty,well rounded firing pins.Anyway thanks again regal

[FAL GRUNT]

Originally posted by yarro
You do not need a manufacturers license. A regular FFL is all that is needed unless you are modifying the shotgun barrels to less that 18" or the overall length less than 26.5".
-yarro

You are incorrect, Ron Walker is correct.

Please keep updated with current BATFE regs, they are constantly changing. If you do any work to a firearm not prescribed directly for and by a customer it is considered manufacturing by the BATFE.

-myers

[yarro]

From the ATFE's website discussing what requires an FFL (300 yearly) and what requires a manufacturers license (1000.00 year, 500.00 if not meeting sales threshold + 300 FFL required to sell it).

From an interpretation on manufacturing from 2009:
"The term “dealer” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11) and 27 CFR 478.11 to include any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, or repairing firearms or making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms ."


He would be making and fitting special barrels thus only an FFL would be required. The ATFE has also extended the above to drop in/factory original parts and goes to great length to repeatedly define what a drop in part is to death. Who you are doing the work for was not addressed. Doing it for eventual sale or compensation (money or barter) is what they are looking for on the needing at least some sort of license.

From an interpretation on manufacturing from 2009:
"In Revenue Ruling 55-342, ATF's predecessor agency interpreted the meaning of the terms "manufacturer" and "dealer" for the purpose of firearms licensing under the Federal Firearms Act, the precursor statute to the GCA. It was determined that a licensed dealer could assemble firearms from component parts on an individual basis, but could not
engage in the business of assembling firearms from component parts in quantity lots for purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer's license." This is why the field agents are probably stating that customer work is FFL, in-house work is not as they are refering to assembling a firearm from components and they see the work individual in the exception text. Though reading the text sending the FFL more than one reciever to build up could be considered manufacturing as it could be a "quantity lot". There obviously has to be some number greater than one at which the exception no longer applies.

So if the ATFE ignores a statue, which they reference a lot, so that #1 does not apply. He would appear to be wanting to do this on an individual case by case basis using whatever doubles happen to be available. If he really wanted to be safe then he would get the folks to buy the gun from him and log it as a sale in the bound book then log it back in and alter the barrels for a separate fee or remove the barrels and have him do the work for later install by the new owner who kept the receiver. If the barrels were being altered for repair purposes due to damage or performance issues, then it is FFL work as well.

So since ATFE's determinations have a habit of quoting statute then completely ignoring it and one of the manufacturing determinations was extremely vague, I called the ATFE office in Houston for 'cough' clarification. After two attempts and a long wait, I got someone to talk to me that attempted to answer questions. He said that it did not matter who the work was done for unless you are doing it for yourself and it is not intended for resale. "Manufacturing is manfacturing, and repair is repair" If you do what constitutes manufacturing and you did it for compensation then you need the license. If you perform gunsmithing(which he referred to as repair or minor alteration) then you only need a FFL until you cross the manufacturing line. As for what exactly is manufacturing, I don't think that he was even sure where that line started. He used the phrases "substantially altered" and "made more durable", which I know are quotes from their determinations on what is manufacturing that is vague, which was why I decided to call in the first place as those are vague definitions. When I asked him if installing a new barrel was manufacturing, he gave the vague answer of, depends what else is done not "yes unless more modification are made". When asked about whether shortening a barrel on an existing firearm in manufacturing, I got quoted NFA regs instead of what I wanted to know. He then decided to get me off the phone by stating that if you are an FFL gunsmith it is best to work with them to determine if what you want to do constitutes manufacturing or is just FFL type work. I personally would want their determination in writing.

From the ATFEs own published determinations, repair for sale or compensation is definately FFL work no matter if you are doing it for an in-house gun or a customer gun. Installing drop in parts or factory original parts is FFL work, no matter who it is for, which is why everyone is calling their 1911 parts "drop in" when most require fitting to work well. Engraving and finishing is FFL work from one of their recent determinations. Making a receiver for sale is clearly manufacturing. Assembling a firearm for compensation from scratch is manufacturing unless you are only intermittently assembling single firearms, which is somewhere else you could be screwed by individual interpretation if you made more than one. Alteration could be either depending on how "altered" altered is. That is were you could be screwed by the random interpretation of a single field agent as well. My guess is that being excise tax sensitive, it probably would boil down to whether you substantially altered lots of parts or the value of the firearm in a positive manner since this whole thing started with gunsmiths buying a 600 dollar 1911, throwing most of it away and rebuilding it into a 2-4k gun and not paying excise, which is why the big smiths all just started making their own frames from scratch since if you have to pay excise tax you might as well start with a better frame and slide (CNC technology helped too). If you bought a hundred dollar double, cut the barrels and resold it for 400, they probably would want a mfg license so they could get their excise tax. I would want a letter from DC for any firearms alterations not done to correct a defect beyond simple restocking, grips, installation of triggers, or rebarreling that I was making as an FFL holder saying that I did not need anything more than an FFL to do so. Any gray area with the ATFE is bound to generate income for lawyers if you operate in it.

-yarro

[FAL GRUNT]

I feel like we are having a circular discussion. What you just qouted is 100%. As long as it is done at the direction of a customer.

What the OP stated was buying a number of doubles to modify and then sell to customers. That would require a mfg license.

If a customer brings in a double and ask for it to be shortened then it would not.

-myers

[Ron Walker]

My friend had 5 barreled actions he had bought from someone else and was adding the missing parts to sell them. They indicted him on 5 counts, then by judge time, it was reduced to one. He awaits sentencing. This all started because he legally sold an AR to a city employee that wound up in a shootout in Mexico.
Being hauled before a judge and in danger of becoming a felon is a nasty way to find out it's what they think, and not what you think, that counts. Ron

[ramiller]

From what I gather, it is ok to sell the shotgun to the customer then under his direction make the modifications but not prior to sale.

[Gazz]

Some months ago, the ATF announced that a manufacturers license was required to buy firearms with the intent to refinish, repair, rebarrel, put new sights on or otherwise customize/improve the firearm to make it more saleable. A FFL holder/gunsmith could still do this with a customer owned firearm but could no longer buy a "project" firearm with intent to make it better for resale. I believe they rescinded this rule but do not know the details. It would be best to find out what the rules are for sure before actually doing it and then telling the entire world about on the internet.