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View Full Version : What would be the legality of integrally supressed ammunition?


Outlaw Patriot
May 17, 2009, 14:56
So recently I've been reading up on some of the less conventional silent pistol designs that use integrally suppressed ammunition, such as these:

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm#SP-3_PZAM

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg157-e.htm

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg213-e.htm

What is the legality of this stuff? Would you have to get a tax stamp for each cartridge? Just one for the gun? Or would it all be legal with no tax stamp required, or maybe all illegal no matter what you do?


This is completely out of curiosity, I have no plans to make any of this, although it is pretty interesting.

W.E.G.
May 17, 2009, 15:54
This stuff is innovative.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/humor/a_underwater.jpg
.
.
..

High-cap model (circa 1973).

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/humor/b_535.jpg

Outlaw Patriot
May 17, 2009, 17:06
Are those the Soviet "underwater" cartridges?

Skilter
May 17, 2009, 17:23
I don't know what to say about this other than that you can't fool mother nature.

If something breaks the sound barrier... it's gonna crack. thus you are limited to what speed you are throwing a projectile out. This is obvious to most people.

That being said, I do see a really cool opportunity for short range munitions out of a shotgun with flechettes. They become lowspeed knifes at that point and we all know how those affect vests and things.

I am becoming a bigger better believer in the shotgun.

Unless you can pull an MG3 out of your closet... Shotguns, with a trained operator are really cool in an urban setting.

JohnnyMac
May 17, 2009, 17:49
Google "cat's sneeze cartridges" for one approach.

JMc

Outlaw Patriot
May 18, 2009, 01:30
Originally posted by JohnnyMac
Google "cat's sneeze cartridges" for one approach.

JMc

But these aren't just subsonic rounds. As I understand it, there is something special in the design of these, that actually silences (or lessens) the noise of the powder igniting and the gasses escaping. I can't say I really understand the physics, but it talks about a piston inside the cartridge that somehow manages to hold in the gasses. I don't really understand how it can hold in all the escaping gasses, since the bullet requires pressured buildup of gasses to propel it down the barrel, but if smarter men than me say it works, I'll believe them.

Ok, I know cost would be ridiculously prohibitive for a civilian to produce these individually, and it would make more sense just to get a suppressor, but what would be the legality of a silenced cartridge?

Is there any precedent or evidence to indicate what the NFA would say?



Here's a picture of the pistons:

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/a_sp-3-1.jpg

ActionYobbo
May 18, 2009, 17:55
look at it as piston driven.
I had the opertunity to play with one of the ceramic derenger style pistols
I was told back then that they came out at 650 fps from a 2" barrel and barrel length was critical. if the barrel is longer than 2" the velocity is too low.

Ron Walker
May 18, 2009, 20:53
You're talking about captive piston cartridges. The ones mostly being made now are subsonic for a very obvious reason. The Russians have one and no doubt so do our spooks. My guess is the ATF would rule each one as either a suppressed weapon or destructive device. More tax money that way plus they keep closer control. Way things are going right now , the CIA might would give you one, with certain requirements attached. Ron

Artful
May 19, 2009, 01:40
From my understanding from silenertalk.com the ATFE see's these same as a suppressor part so each cartridge would require a $200 tax stamp - sucks to be in the USA at times now a days doesn't it. Only ones who could really play with with would be Mfg's and how many can you sell if the cust has to pay a $200 tax for each one? So they only seem to make for the .Gov - Knights made one as did AAI - none sold to civilians as I understand it.

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27428&highlight=captive

ActionYobbo
May 19, 2009, 06:58
now if you took the same idea and set it up for air power then the ATF wont have a say because there is no fire

Outlaw Patriot
May 19, 2009, 11:48
That's pretty much what I figured, but thanks for the heads up guys. When in doubt, just assume the ATF won't want you to have any fun huh?


Doesn't really ruin my day, I don't have anywhere close to the means or knowledge to manufacture these, I was really just curious.

Ron Walker
May 19, 2009, 12:36
When in doubt, just assume the ATF won't want you to have any fun huh?
That pretty much sums it up. I believe the majority of them were raised by either Puritans or Muslim Clerics. Ron

W.E.G.
May 19, 2009, 16:49
I think if you were known to be in possession of anything like that, you would turn up on some very special lists much beyond the docket at the local pigs-and-chickens court.

Outlaw Patriot
May 19, 2009, 19:04
Originally posted by Ron Walker
When in doubt, just assume the ATF won't want you to have any fun huh?
That pretty much sums it up. I believe the majority of them were raised by either Puritans or Muslim Clerics. Ron

Or even worse BUREAUCRATS! Shudder.

Originally posted by W.E.G.
I think if you were known to be in possession of anything like that, you would turn up on some very special lists much beyond the docket at the local pigs-and-chickens court.


Yea, I hadn't really thought about that, but I guess that since these were designed for basically murdering people in foreign countries without anyone finding out, yea I could see that the from the government's perspective the only people to have them would be foreign spies, who planned on killing people.

Probably a one way trip to gitmo.


I will not be attempting to build any of these. Thanks for the info though guys, just from an engineering standpoint, they are definitely interesting.