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firewalker
March 28, 2009, 22:52
Is there a way or a part that keeps a man from accidentally pulling the operating rod off the bolt/bolt roller when charging. I've never fully removed the operating rod by accident until tonight.

I quickly picked up the m1a and racked the rod while palming it with my left and getting it to my shoulder. I noticed a dead feeling when the bolt went forward and pulled it back down to see the op rod was off the roller of the bolt!

I reassembled and then proceeded to produce the failure over and over by pulling full back with a bit of outter pressure on my palm..Do you folks know anyway to keep this from happening. The Coyotes got away without a bullet in them.

W.E.G.
March 28, 2009, 22:56
Yes.

Operate the mechanism gently.

They are delicate little things. :devil:

DYNOMIKE
March 28, 2009, 23:20
Hell, beats me?? I can't get my Op-rods to come off on purpose half the time?? :tongue:

W.E.G.
March 28, 2009, 23:24
Originally posted by DYNOMIKE
Hell, beats me?? I can't get my Op-rods to come off on purpose half the time??

...and unpredictable :devil: :devil:

Just wait until you break a firing in pin in one in the field. :cry:

ftierson
March 28, 2009, 23:29
When I was in basic training at Fort Dix in 1967, one of the guys in my training company had an M14 whose bolt would jump out of the rifle onto the ground once every 20-30 rounds...

Kind of disconcerting when you were the student coach...:)

Forrest

firewalker
March 29, 2009, 07:53
Doesn't sound very good at all. Surely Shirely this is not going to ruin me on M1As but I don't have such problems with fals..

Survey Punk
March 29, 2009, 08:00
Sounds like the lug on the op rod that holds it to the side of the receiver is worn.
Pull the op rod and look at the lug. It should have nice sharp corners without any "faceting", specifically on the top.
If it's an SA rifle they'll replace it.

JB

ActionYobbo
March 29, 2009, 08:06
it happens when you dont pull the op rod straight back. if you apply sideways pressure as you pull it back it can jump out of the track and drop the bolt.
I have several M1A's that did that but the worst was M14's that had the auto parts removed because the auto link held the op rod in

2barearms
March 29, 2009, 20:00
It could be a couple things.

First is the Op Rod a GI or an SA Op Rod.
Second with the op rod all the way forward is the roller exposed.
Third, Have you shot some really heavy bullets with hot loads.
Fourth Is the bolt roller recess battered very badly.
Fifth is the tab at the end of the op rod worn excessively, under .090?

If it's an SA Op Rod and it was shot with heavy high pressure ammo
it could have bent the Op Rod, the SA cast Op Rods will fail if they
are abused, look for cracks also. Excessive tab wear and a slightly
bent Op Rod could cause the problem you're having.

kayakpirate
March 30, 2009, 14:17
Got to shoot one of the "Blue Sky" M1 Garand imports back in the 80's.They were like 200 bucks in shotgun news.Loaded a clip of Lake City 30-06.Pulled the trigger,gun went bang,and the op-rod disconnected from the bolt.Broke rifle down.Made sure everything was where is was supposed to be.Loaded rifle,pulled trigger,gun went bang,and the op-rod came off again.Gave it back to the guy and told him to take it back.Never did find out what happened.

firewalker
March 30, 2009, 15:45
It was a new old stock TRW when Fulton Armory built the rifle. Not a lot of rounds and nothing by South African or Port through the rifle. All GI parts. It only comes off when I up and out on the rod when fully retracted. It was done by accident in a rush to shoot some Coyotes and I now have found fault with the most accurate and pleasing to shoot battle rifles I own. Now I am sure FALs are superior.

Jimi X.
March 30, 2009, 18:30
Hmmmmm. And this is a linage of "battle rifle"?

Garbage like this, is probably why, in the early 80's, and article in "American Rifleman", claimed that the M14/M1A, is unnecessarily complex!

This would not have happened to you if you had been shooting a HK91, a Valmet, or a Galil!......I own a Springfield M1A, hope it doesn't happen to me either!

Seaweed
March 30, 2009, 22:22
Remember that real M14s have op rods that are removed in the middle of the cycle, not at the back end as the M1A or M1. And, as previously stated the op rod is held in by the full auto linkage.

Survey Punk
March 31, 2009, 07:44
Originally posted by firewalker
It only comes off when I up and out on the rod when fully retracted.

Sounds like you simply pulled the handle out when the lug was in the takedown notch. Carry the rifle with a round in the chamber and the safety on like it was designed.

JB

Jimi X.
March 31, 2009, 12:30
Originally posted by Seaweed
Remember that real M14s have op rods that are removed in the middle of the cycle, not at the back end as the M1A or M1. And, as previously stated the op rod is held in by the full auto linkage.


So, in creating a civilian version of the M14, that would never see full auto fire, the manufacturers failed to take this into account, and create a safe, operational work around?

And could you expand on your statement "real M14s have op rods that are removed in the middle of the cycle, not at the back end as the M1A"? Could you compare and contrast the operation of the M14, vs the M1A? Thanks!

DYNOMIKE
March 31, 2009, 18:02
Originally posted by Jimi X.
Hmmmmm. And this is a linage of "battle rifle"?

Garbage like this, is probably why, in the early 80's, and article in "American Rifleman", claimed that the M14/M1A, is unnecessarily complex!

This would not have happened to you if you had been shooting a HK91, a Valmet, or a Galil!......I own a Springfield M1A, hope it doesn't happen to me either!

This is the very first time I have ever heard of this anomaly, in fact although mentioned somewhat in jest as I stated earlier I can barely get my Op-rods out when I "WANT" them to come out..

I think the M-14 Type rifle is far from Garbage, and I would take mine anyday before an HK91..
As far as it's alleged complexity I disagree, the rifles work great and those I have spoke to that actually USED the M14 in battle seem to have beeen pretty pleased with it.. One of these pepes was my Dad who told me that while in Vietnam he never saw a Malf with the rifles..

BTW, as a rule I have never been particularly impressed wit the American Rifleman... :tongue:

Warbirds Custom Guns
March 31, 2009, 21:51
Perhaps my 2 bits can help.
You don't mention in both your post who made the receiver so I'm shooting blind here.

If it's a springer I can add some incite.

1rst, the width of the groove can vary between receivers from SAI.
Anywhere from very narrow (for well used op-rods) to a bit wider than spec. Armscorp also followed suit in their receivers.

2nd you need to determine the width of the groove to find the problem.
If it's the narrow version, maybe the op-rod lug (tab) is very worn or to thin & short to stay in the groove.
Or the groove is wider than spec. & the new (per spec. .095-.100) op-rod lug is not wide enough to accommodate the wider groove.

3rd is that the op-rod lug is to short & therefore is coming out.

4th you must measure the op-rod lug so ya know what you're dealing with there.

5th on the SAI receiver there's a "hump" in the round portion of the groove below the windage knob. It's there to tighten the fit as op-rods wear per my conversation with Larry Collinson @ SAI about a year ago.

So bottom line is that ya need to measure both the groove & tab which will then lead to a sollution (if needed).
If the op-rod functions fine when fired. Don't worry about it till it starts to jump the track.
HTH

firewalker
April 02, 2009, 08:15
The receiver was a new bare springfield I bought for the build. I got it direct.
All the parts were new and in spec. I had never built one before so I sent it to Fulton Armory and am still pleased. The malfunction only happened when I manipulated the charging handle in that way and not when firing or charging normally.

It would not be possible to do this on a GI milled M14 with connector rod in place. I am dissapointed with the laws that hold me to an M1A or 12-15 thousand dollars for a Spec factory gun that I would not shoot F/A anyway.

I got into M1a rifles for a reason. I like the sights better than any other battle rifles design. I like to keep things GI spec except I do use a shortened NM front sight so my zero at 100 is 4 clicks from the bottom instead of 6 to 8.

2barearms
April 02, 2009, 18:17
Well to answer the issue of what is complex, the M14 has 62 parts the
FAL has at least 127 parts. While the 'which one is better' has been beaten
to death I'd say from a simplicity perspective the M14 is simpler in some respects.

The issue of the dismounting op rod is simple also, you are pulling the op rod
far enough to the rear to engage the dismount notch and there is enough
wear on the tab with up and out force to disengage it, don't do that.

donlipa
April 19, 2009, 20:30
This is silly a guy has a build that he obviously did not measure the tab of the op rod to properly fit his receiver then he complains about the rifle and all the haters pile on. Good stuff. Get a new oprod with a tab that better fits your receiver. Like others have said a properly fit oprod is hard to remove on purpose.

short-fuse
April 21, 2009, 16:00
firewalker, I had this same problem with a new Springfield. Happened when I was checking for empty chamber before letting a friend check her out. Posted on another site and was told that there was a problem & that I should call SAI. Called Springfield and was told that it wasn't right & send it back. Came back without this problem. nice & snug, invoice says Refit OP-ROD tested & good. Hope this helps..

Rotor
April 23, 2009, 17:20
Originally posted by firewalker
Is there a way or a part that keeps a man from accidentally pulling the operating rod off the bolt/bolt roller when charging.

Yes pull it directly to the rear.


I reassembled and then proceeded to produce the failure over and over by pulling full back with a bit of outter pressure on my palm..Do you folks know anyway to keep this from happening.

Yes pull it directly to the rear.


It was a new old stock TRW when Fulton Armory built the rifle.


Unless it accidentaly went into a bin and on another rifle.


High miler with lots of M14 use
.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/Rotor_/M14/OP%20Rods/OpRodTabRich1.jpg

Measure your tab for newness. It sounds thin. 1mm is new.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/Rotor_/M14/OP%20Rods/DSCF0699.jpg

.
Low miler with good tab thickness.
.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/Rotor_/M14/OP%20Rods/DSCF0696.jpg


It only comes off when I up and out on the rod when fully retracted.


Up and out when fully retracted IS the dissasembly procedure.


The malfunction only happened when I manipulated the charging handle in that way and not when firing or charging normally.


It's not a malfunction if you are not, as you say, charging normally.

JR

shortround
April 23, 2009, 18:33
Originally posted by Rotor


Measure your tab for newness. It sounds thin. 1mm is new.
JR

1mm is only .040"

I think you meant .100" or one tenth inch.

Rotor
April 23, 2009, 23:03
Koresh

Warbirds Custom Guns
April 24, 2009, 20:15
Originally posted by shortround


1mm is only .040"
I think you meant .100" or one tenth inch.

USGI spec. is .095-.100 as considered to be new.
Anything under .080 should be fixed if the op-rod groove on the receiver meets USGI spec.

If the groove is narrower as on some SAI & Armscorp receivers, it would be less.

So in reality, if the tab is .020 under the groove width, get it fixed.
You'll be glad ya did.

Cliff M
April 25, 2009, 07:24
I bought a NM rifle in 4/07 and could not get the op rod off without quite a bit of work. I sent it back to SA and they reworked it and it comes off normally now and I've had no problems with it jumping off. One thing about Springfield is they stand behind their product but the down side is it will probably take a while to get the rifle back. Give them a call and see what they say. Just a thought hope this helps. Good Luck.

Beckman
April 25, 2009, 12:10
It should be noted that the M1A and other "semi-auto-ized" commercial receivers copy the op-rod takedown method used by the Garand rifle, not the method used by the original military M14.

Given the Garand's proven battle history, it's reasonable to state that the takedown method has stood up under combat, even if it isn't perfect. Clearly, the military M14 takedown method seems to be superior to that of the Garand, but the Garand's method isn't "garbage" as some have stated.

Yes, the same issue also occurs Garands.

jimc
April 28, 2009, 10:50
Originally posted by donlipa
This is silly a guy has a build that he obviously did not measure the tab of the op rod to properly fit his receiver then he complains about the rifle and all the haters pile on. Good stuff. Get a new oprod with a tab that better fits your receiver. Like others have said a properly fit oprod is hard to remove on purpose.

If you would have read his post, you would know he did not build the rifle. Fulton Armory did. Not his fault. And, his op rod tab is just probably worn. I have to fight mine to get it out to clean the rifle.

jimc
April 28, 2009, 10:51
Originally posted by Jimi X.



So, in creating a civilian version of the M14, that would never see full auto fire, the manufacturers failed to take this into account, and create a safe, operational work around?

And could you expand on your statement "real M14s have op rods that are removed in the middle of the cycle, not at the back end as the M1A"? Could you compare and contrast the operation of the M14, vs the M1A? Thanks!

No, they did not fail to consider this. The shelf that the op rod sits on is twice as wide on an M1A as an M14, to make up the difference for the connector.