S&W 25-5 .45LC

[kayakpirate]

I had read that 25-5's arent N frames like all of S&W's other N-frame revolvers.This article made the comment that these 25-5's were not good choices for hot loading handloads.That while the N-frame 44mag,was supposed to be the same frame ,that the N- frame 25-5 was actually weaker due to the manufacturer not anticipating hot .45 LC loads( figuring on the regular commercial low pressure .45LC loads being the norm),and slightly reinforced the .44mag. N-frames due to expected hotter .44mags wear and tear.
Question comes to mind,how fragile are these 25-5"s? Is anything heavier than 264 grains going 850-900 fps too much for these guns? Was I wrong to run that 330grain Cor-Bon (1050 fps) stuff through it? ( only a dozen rounds or so.)Back when I did this,it supposed to have been alright.Since then I've seen warnings against doing this.How badly could I have screwed the piece?

[Retired Bum]

S&W N frames are all the same basically. The dimensions of my oldest N frame, a 1914 made Triple Lock in .455 Webley are the same as my newest N frame, a Model 629 .44 Magnum Mountain Revolver. The differences are in the steels used and the heat treatment.

I have owned three of the M25-5's. My current one is a pinned barrel four inch made about 1980. I restrict my choice of ammo to standard pressure factory or my handloads. My basic all around load is a 255 gr LSWC over 7.0 grs #231. This load does just over 700 fps in the four inch barrel which duplicates the Winchester 255 gr RNL factory load. For a self defense load I use the Federal 225 gr LSWCHP at a chrono'd 757 fps.

I have shot the Corbon 200 gr JHP which is rated at 1100 fps and did 1105 in the 25-5. Extraction was a bit sticky and I feel that this load is just a bit too hot for use in Model 25-5's. The cylinder walls are quite thin and the bolt locking notch is right where the the cylinder wall is thinnest. I think that it would be very easy to get into trouble with warm loads in the 25-5.

I own numerous N frames in a bunch of different calibers. The .38 Spl, .357 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 Spl. .44 Mag, .44-40 WCF, .45 ACP/Auto Rim, .45 Colt, and .455 Webley. If I need more performance in a big bore N frame, I will go to one of my .41 or .44 Magnums. Why take a chance on buggering up a revolver that is no longer being made...

And so it goes.


The Retired One

[nframe]

Ditto what retired bum said.I have an old 1917 and a 625-4, both 45 acp and the cyl. walls are pretty thin. If you want to shoot hot 45 colts get a Ruger Blackhawk. A lot of reloading manuals have seperate data for the Ruger and Contender. In my 5 1/2" Blackhawk I can make 255 gr plated bullets go 1100
and the empties fall out of the gun. (Alliant 2400).

[bykerhd]

It doesn't sound like you blew anything up.:wink:
You may have shortened it's operational life a bit. If it still locks up tight all around and you don't see signs of damage, you should be fine.
I would avoid the "heavy-duty" stuff.
Get a used Ruger Blackhawk or Redhawk for the hot stuff.
Stay with the loads comparable to what would be safe in a Colt Single Action and your Smith will outlast you.
Even the old blackpowder .45 Colt loads killed lots of things DRT (Dead Right There). For normal use you won't be under gunned.:wink:

[kayakpirate]

Thanks for the input guys.When I can,I usually throw the standard RNL loadings through it.I experimented with the cor-bon stuff,but didnt use it a lot.Made a muzzle flash that could be seen from space!
As for the piece itself,its still nice and tight.Shoots good groups.So maybe I didnt foul up too bad.

[1911guy]

I understand that the problem with hotrodding the .45 LC is an inherent weakness in the shell case design rather than Smiths Mod. 25.
Smith also put out a warning on their K frame .357 to the effect that they should not be fed a steady diet of magnum loads. It is too hard on the frame being a K and all. I would have no hesitation regarding the gun about cranking a Long Colt but I think I would use a .44 mag toget the power/velocities I wanted with the Long Colt

[Hoot G]

kayakpirate, here's the best information I've found on the 25-5. The author has extensive knowledge and actual hands-on experience with the gun/cartridge.


John Linebaugh on the 25-5 (http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12)

BTW, it's my favorite wheelgun. :)


http://homepage.mac.com/hoot/.Pictures/25-5/7048web.jpg

[kayakpirate]

Thanks HootG,I appreciate the link.
On a slightly different topic I would just like to add how helpful everyone is on this site.I've seen some "disagreements" here and there,(on different topics),but by and large this forum really has an excellent bunch of people.So thanks to everyone.
I really like this old blued hand cannon,so you've all made me feel better,thought I'd really screwed the thing.So thanks all.

[aardq]

A note of the weakness of the 45 LC cases. This goes back to when the round was introduced. To have more powder capacity, the case was designed so the primer pocket stuck up into case interior, thus leaving the area between the case wall and the primer pocket open. This made for a weaker case head, but with black powder it didn't make any difference. These cases are called "balloon head" cases and haven't been made in decades.

When smokeless powders came along, the case was redesigned to be like all other cases, with the interior empty area eliminated, making the case stronger.

All modern 45 LC cases are safe, strong cases.

[fire for effect]

Originally posted by aardq
A note of the weakness of the 45 LC cases. This goes back to when the round was introduced. To have more powder capacity, the case was designed so the primer pocket stuck up into case interior, thus leaving the area between the case wall and the primer pocket open. ...

The reason the case was made this way was not to increase the case capacity, it was simply the way all cases were made at the time.

[fire for effect]

There really is no need to 'Hot Rod' the 45 Long Colt anyway. This cartridge was intended to put people down, and in this, it does so with remarkable effeciency.

[davedude]

oopps...wrong place--post retracted

Dave Dude

[MMichaelAK]

Fire for effect is right. The original style cases are called balloon head cases. The heads are lighter, thinner and can take less pressure than current production brass.

Yup, a 250 /255 grain RNFP at 750-800 fps will dish out a world of hurt. Even if fired out of a Ruger. Extremely comfortable to shoot in any of mine. I like the .45 Colt round a lot and they are fun to run hot and heavy (oh say, a 300 grain WFNGC over a moderate load of H110 for 1040 fps, but that's a bear load :D) but I wouldn't do THAT in a Smith.

Hoot, that is a very nice revolver. Like the stag grips!

[kayakpirate]

Yeah , I really like the "push"of that old .45 lc round...not too much,but gives great ballistics.I guess I'm just one of those guys that likes to blow holes in stuff.I cant help it if I fire off a howizter round every now and then.Its my right. Gosh darn it...although its not good for the gun....and the gunsmith does do good work on timing revolvers so,he fixes it,I pay him,he uses the cash I gave him for God-know-what...thereby,I'm stimulating the economy...everybody wins!
God bless America!

[TerryN]

A 'must-read' for owners of S&W M-25s and ,45 Colt shooters in general - .45 Colt - Dissolving the Myth, by John Linebaugh: http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

An excellent article, which lays to rest several old wives tales about this cartridge (and gun).

[elbo]

Originally posted by TerryN
Dissolving the Myth, by John Linebaugh
I was with him until he started on Taylor' K.O. formula. Why replace an old myth with a new myth?

[trucksurfer]

Originally posted by Hoot G
kayakpirate, here's the best information I've found on the 25-5. The author has extensive knowledge and actual hands-on experience with the gun/cartridge.


John Linebaugh on the 25-5 (http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12)

BTW, it's my favorite wheelgun. :)


http://homepage.mac.com/hoot/.Pictures/25-5/7048web.jpg

What a coincidence, that is MY favorite wheelgun too! Nice piece, would love to get ahold of one like that.
Until such time I'll hold onto my 625 Mountain Gun, it's the new style, lawyered up and all, but still an N frame and still shoots the cuarenta y cinco, and that's what matters!

[Hoot G]

Somehow this got out of my subscribed list, and didn't see replies?

Thanks trucksurfer! That 25-5 started my N frameitis. Keep looking, you never know what you're going to find. This one sat on a dealer's website for so long (months) that it wore me down and I had to get it. It was cheap too. :confused: I still haven't figured out why.

I'm still looking for the right deal on a MG in 45 Colt. It's on my list!

Take care.

[kayakpirate]

Hoot G; Did you have that piece nickeled,or did it come that way? You've given my revolver a case of "finish envy"...That is a very cool look on that thumper.
Also on another topic,I heard that the Winchester Silver tips had some problems
with expansion.What about the route that Federal took with the lead SWCHP they put together for the .44spl? Even at the milder velocities I think that the .45LC could be updated to a spec that the 25-5 could handle.

[Hoot G]

kayakpirate, thanks! I haven't had it lettered, but my observation, and those of guys that know more than me, is that it's original factory nickel. There is no indication that it has been refinished, no buffing,, no dishing, has strong markings, etc. and no repair codes under the grips. It also looks like my other nickel S&Ws.

I wouldn't refinish an N frame unless it really needs it, but if I did, it would be nickel. To me, it's the best looking S&W made. I like the older deep blue, but there's just something about that shiny stuff...

I dunno about the Silver Tips. I have some Kinetics Research hollow points here in case I ever need them. They're a bit hotter than regular factory loads, but I haven't done much to see how well they work. I figure a 45 cal bullet at 250 grains that barks like these do is probably gonna get the job done. Besides, it's not my first choice for a self-defense handgun, if life gets real ugly.

You might want to check out the links to Linebaugh for the real deal on how much the 25 can handle. The gun is not the weakling that a lot of folks would have us believe. Clark Custom Guns in LA. (well known and highly respected gunsmiths) chambers the 25/625 for the .460 Rowland (230 gr. at 1350 fps and 185 gr. at 1550) so I'm thinking that the old Colt load can be updated, just not to Ruger/Contender levels. But, I'm not an experienced reloader, I have no engineering credentials, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, so take my opinion on this with a grain of salt. I believe Linebaugh.

[trucksurfer]

Hey Hoot, when you're ready to move on to something else, I'd be happy to pay you full retail for a sweet chunk of iron like that. One doesn't stumble over something like that once a year, let alone every day!