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larphred
January 13, 2009, 17:07
I have had an 11" DSA barrel for awhile now. I purchased a DSA receiver and was under the impression that when my ffl dealer received the receiver he had to designate it as an SBR receiver when he "sold" it to me.
However, he told me that I just needed to fill out an ATF Form 1 to license the SBR that I will build. Does that sound right?
Thanks

T210driver
January 13, 2009, 18:48
Originally posted by larphred
I have had an 11" DSA barrel for awhile now. I purchased a DSA receiver and was under the impression that when my ffl dealer received the receiver he had to designate it as an SBR receiver when he "sold" it to me.
However, he told me that I just needed to fill out an ATF Form 1 to license the SBR that I will build. Does that sound right?
Thanks

Form 1 is correct along with certification of compliance (citizenship) and depending on which route you go (trust, individual, etc.) maybe fingerprints and photos (not required for trust, LLC, etc,). Also may need chief LEO signature (not required for trust, LLC, etc.)

You'll need to have the lower engraved with the name of the maker (you or your trust or your LLC or etc.) per ATF requirements. (minimum 1/8 inch tall and minimum .003 inch deep, somewhere easily visible) Some folks say you need to have this done BEFORE submitting paperwork 'cause as soon as the BATF issues the stamp, you've now got a SBR and it better be compliant with the engraving requirement at the time the stamp is issued (yeah, a nit to pick, but why take the chance).

ATF web site states form 1 is STILL not available online; you have to order from them (which has been relatively quick for me in the past). Also try:
Titleii.com (http://titleii.com/)

Caution on being in possession of an assembled short upper and non-sbr lowers. "Constructive intent" has some subtle nuances.

later,
Derace

larphred
January 13, 2009, 19:04
Thanks T210Driver. The engraving on the lower is totally new to me. Since the upper receiver is the "firearm" in the case of the FAL, why would they make such a requirement for the lower. I know, I know, why does the ATF do anything it does, but this one makes even less sense than most of their rulings.

T210driver
January 13, 2009, 19:40
Originally posted by larphred
Thanks T210Driver. The engraving on the lower is totally new to me. Since the upper receiver is the "firearm" in the case of the FAL, why would they make such a requirement for the lower. I know, I know, why does the ATF do anything it does, but this one makes even less sense than most of their rulings.

Senior moment, I misfired about AR stuff. Disregard what I said about the lowers; I completely brain farted.

You will need to engrave the upper.

sorry for the cornfusion,
Derace

T210driver
January 13, 2009, 20:20
Pay no attention to me!

I just rechecked the engraving requirements and the size of the letters must be at least 1/16 inch tall not 1/8 inch as I first stated.

Oh dopey me!

Her's another ATF document:NFA handbook (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/)

later,
Derace

really, I do have three SBR's that I built and registered! Somehow. I think.:)

larphred
January 13, 2009, 20:47
Thanks again Derace. I assumed the "brain fart" mechanism may have applied, but I didn't want to mention it until you did. A couple of months ago I was in AR mode and experienced similar cerebral flatulence.
Again, thank you for your info. I kinda knew much of the stuff, but the engraving detail was something I hadn't heard.
Is the nomenclature chosen to be engraved subject to any specifics other than dimensional? Or could I just engrave "OBAMASUX" or the like?

T210driver
January 13, 2009, 21:06
Originally posted by larphred
Thanks again Derace. I assumed the "brain fart" mechanism may have applied, but I didn't want to mention it until you did. A couple of months ago I was in AR mode and experienced similar cerebral flatulence.
Again, thank you for your info. I kinda knew much of the stuff, but the engraving detail was something I hadn't heard.
Is the nomenclature chosen to be engraved subject to any specifics other than dimensional? Or could I just engrave "OBAMASUX" or the like?

Read section 7.4.1 of the NFA handbook for the complete rules on engraving. Basically it describes the size and depth you must engrave. Also you must use at least one numeral if you are making up a serial number and serial numbers must use Roman letters and Arabic numbers (I assume this also applies to engraving the SBR's makers name, etc. as well, but that is just a guess. I used roman letters for the engraving; i.e. no cyrillic stuff, etc.).

On the three SBR's I did, they were all built on commercial receivers, so all I had to do was mark them with my name, city and state (for the two the sherrif signed off as an individual). The other SBR is in my trust and was marked with the trust name, city and state.

If you go the trust route, be carefull about picking a long name since you will have to engrave the name of the trust on the receiver and abbreviations have to be of "recognized" general use; so my trust is named simply as an example:

Derace Lastname Trust
Bryan, Texas


Derace

larphred
January 14, 2009, 01:32
Thanks Derace. You have been of invaluable help to me. (I think that means a whole lot of help).:)

Blackmore
January 14, 2009, 06:25
Originally posted by larphred
Or could I just engrave "OBAMASUX" or the like?

If you named your trust "The Obamasux Revocable Trust" you would be required to engrave that on the upper receiver.

T210driver
January 14, 2009, 09:19
Originally posted by Blackmore


If you named your trust "The Obamasux Revocable Trust" you would be required to engrave that on the upper receiver.

You are devious. I like that.

Derace

OMR_RDTandE
January 14, 2009, 18:03
Originally posted by T210driver


Some folks say you need to have this done BEFORE submitting paperwork 'cause as soon as the BATF issues the stamp, you've now got a SBR and it better be compliant with the engraving requirement at the time the stamp is issued (yeah, a nit to pick, but why take the chance).


Recent BATFE finding states that it's the assembly of the short barrel to the receiver that is considered the act of manufacturing, not the issuance of the tax stamp. If you have no concern about getting your Form 1 approved, then have your receiver engraved while waiting on your tax stamp, otherwise you might want to wait until the tax stamp is in hand.

DJ
January 14, 2009, 18:20
Larphred, follow this link and read the thread. Jamie has built a number of SBR's and he's posted a tutorial on the subject. This is for AR's but it should follow through on about anything.

http://www.m4orum.com/SMF_Forum/index.php?topic=143.0

yarro
January 14, 2009, 23:46
SBRs may be marked on the barrel, except for the serial number, which if you use the same one that is on the current reciever, it is already done.

-Yarro

Vaughn L. Allen
January 16, 2009, 00:29
What's the purpose of the engraving? If the serial number and the manufacture of the receiver is on the receiver and it matches up to the form, why are any other markings necessary? I'm just trying to figure out what purpose it serves...

T210driver
January 16, 2009, 10:00
Originally posted by Vaughn L. Allen
What's the purpose of the engraving? If the serial number and the manufacture of the receiver is on the receiver and it matches up to the form, why are any other markings necessary? I'm just trying to figure out what purpose it serves...

The engraving of concern is that additional engraving that identifies the maker of the actual short barrel firearm which is not necessarily the original maker of the receiver. There are several permutations to cover such as a homeade receiver, a commercially available receiver already registerd as an SBR or a non-registered receiver being registered by an individual making a short barrel item.

It is possible to buy a receiver that has already been registered as a short barrel item; I believe several of the major suppliers of short barrel rifles supply completely assembled SBR's. All you do is fill out a form 4 transfer and the engraving has already been done and registered as such and no additional engraving is reguired. But if you go and buy a regular receiver to build a SBR on a form 1, you are required to add your information onto the the SBR to identfy you as the maker fo the SBR.

The purpose? I guess just to identfy exactly who initially made the SBR.

later,
Derace

Vaughn L. Allen
January 16, 2009, 11:49
I reading through the NFA handbook, the only requirement for engraving applies only to to the "manufacturer" which is a business registered as an NFA manufacturer or a registered gunsmith acting as a manufacurer. It appeared to me that if the upper had the required information from the original manufacuter, there was no reason for having additional engraving done.

I have several friends who have SBRs and they have no additional markings on them. Two of them received theirs on a form 4, the others did theirs on a form 1. The only guy that had to engrave his SBR was a friend that built an AMD 65 on a flat. Because it didn't have an existing serial number or manufacurer listed on the receiver, it had to be done prior to registering it.

I contacted BATF&E NFA branch and ran the question past them. I was advised that my hunch was correct, the additional engraving is required by NFA registered businesses and registered gunsmiths acting as a manufacuter. An indiviudual assembling an already marked upper and lower does not have to engrave it.

For clarification, this was only regarding a non-trust SBR build on a form 1.

larphred
January 16, 2009, 11:56
Thanks Vaughn, for going that extra mile. Before I start this project, I will call the alphabet gang and get precise, step-by-step directions, as well as names.

BTW, if you're not doing anything on Monday, we are planning a shoot out west and you're welcome to go.

Vaughn L. Allen
January 16, 2009, 12:08
Larry,
You've got mail=)

T210driver
January 16, 2009, 14:19
Originally posted by Vaughn L. Allen
I reading through the NFA handbook, the only requirement for engraving applies only to to the "manufacturer" which is a business registered as an NFA manufacturer or a registered gunsmith acting as a manufacurer. It appeared to me that if the upper had the required information from the original manufacuter, there was no reason for having additional engraving done.

I have several friends who have SBRs and they have no additional markings on them. Two of them received theirs on a form 4, the others did theirs on a form 1. The only guy that had to engrave his SBR was a friend that built an AMD 65 on a flat. Because it didn't have an existing serial number or manufacurer listed on the receiver, it had to be done prior to registering it.

I contacted BATF&E NFA branch and ran the question past them. I was advised that my hunch was correct, the additional engraving is required by NFA registered businesses and registered gunsmiths acting as a manufacuter. An indiviudual assembling an already marked upper and lower does not have to engrave it.

For clarification, this was only regarding a non-trust SBR build on a form 1.

This is very interesting as a great deal of conversation of this exact topic has been done on arfcom in the class III section. True, there is no additional engraving required on a form 4 since those are SBR's directly from a manufacturer who has already registered them as SBR's; but when an SBR is made on a form 1, it is the general concensus that the firearm must be engraved with the name/city/state of the person/entity submitting the form 1. I am not surprised that you have actual information from the NFA that contradicts this. This phenomenon was also noted in the discussions on arfcom.

Was this conversation with the Firearms Technology Branch?

I err on the side of caution. My SBR's are engraved.

Derace

Vaughn L. Allen
January 16, 2009, 21:55
I'd rather choose not to err either way, just comply with the law. No need to dick up a receiver with needless engraving.

Just my 2 cents.

ds762
January 17, 2009, 00:46
Originally posted by Vaughn L. Allen
I'd rather choose not to err either way, just comply with the law. No need to dick up a receiver with needless engraving.

Just my 2 cents.

this may be my first post on this site .. flamesuit ON

the engraving is required regardless of what some twit at the NFA branch told you. the engraving is required by law. to do otherwise is a FELONY!

Vaughn L. Allen
January 17, 2009, 02:00
Please edify me as to where your information is coming from. I'll believe the "twit" who happened to be well-versed in the law over someone who just thinks they are. The NFA branch of BATF&E and the actual regulation states that it's not required for an individual. They deal with thousands of form 1s a year so they ought to be pretty good at it by now.

I would actually like to see where your information is coming from. You know what they say about opinions... I base my decisions on fact, not fear or paranoia.

Saying something is a FELONY (I bolded it because you did) doesn't make it a felony.

This is simply an exchange of information, no need to put any emotion into it. Everything that I'm reading and being told by legitimate sources is contrary to your opinion.

If you can reference an actual regulation, legislation, or official source of such information, please do so....


Vaughn

C2VETTE
January 17, 2009, 19:37
It is also my understanding that the engraving is not required on an already manufactured firearm. This debate had been held here several times over the years and this is always the conclusion.

T210driver
January 17, 2009, 21:01
Originally posted by C2VETTE
It is also my understanding that the engraving is not required on an already manufactured firearm. This debate had been held here several times over the years and this is always the conclusion.

I certainly wouldn't mind if that were the case. Here is someone who asked another branch of the ATF and apparently got a different answer:

http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s69/Donr101395/ATFengravingletter.jpg

later,
Derace

T210driver
January 17, 2009, 22:49
And lest anyone think I cannot beat a dead horse a little more, take a look at this bit of horrible English grammar in the fourth paragraph and see if you can actually tell what's going on:

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2079/atffinalsbrverdict0px.jpg

Enjoy!

Derace

Vaughn L. Allen
January 18, 2009, 11:16
It's clear as mud. The second letter states that their original opinion was correct and that they were remiss in telling him to place the additional marking. The letters are also almost three years old and may contain outdated information.

27 CFR 479.102 also states that the maker has to engrave a serial number. So that's two differenrt serial numbers if applying this the same way. However, instructions on the actual Form 1 state that you should put a duplicate serial number which contradicts the actual regulation.

This is just nuts!

Does anyone have any interpretation of the law from a federal court? What I would like to know is anyone knows of an individual without an FFL has been indicted for a violation of this specific law and subsequent rulings regarding it.

As mirky as this is, I wouldn't think that any US Attorney would feel comfortable going forward with any type of indictment. Basically it may or may not be a violation of the law to not mark the firearm.... WTF?

Vaughn L. Allen
January 18, 2009, 14:07
Ok, after talking with an AUSA friend of mine it makes more sense. Not engraving the info on the NFA as an individual may or may not be a violation of the REGULATION, it is not a violation of any 18 USC series laws, and if you are found not to be in compliance with this they MAY or MAY NOT mandate that you come into compliance on a case by case basis. They will generally give you a reasonable amount of time to correct a deficiency and MAY or MAY NOT revoke the Form 1 if you don't comply. She stressed that this is regulatory in nature and not criminal.

She also referred me to a statistical websight for DOJ as I was currious to see how many individuals had been charged with a violation of an ACTUAL law, 922r (US parts counts). No individual has been charged with a violation in the past five years.

I will continue to comply with the requirement of 922r because it is a federal law. As far as engraving it may or may not be required and appears to be regulatory in nature, not criminal.

T210driver
January 18, 2009, 16:05
Originally posted by Vaughn L. Allen
Ok, after talking with an AUSA friend of mine it makes more sense. Not engraving the info on the NFA as an individual may or may not be a violation of the REGULATION, it is not a violation of any 18 USC series laws, and if you are found not to be in compliance with this they MAY or MAY NOT mandate that you come into compliance on a case by case basis. They will generally give you a reasonable amount of time to correct a deficiency and MAY or MAY NOT revoke the Form 1 if you don't comply. She stressed that this is regulatory in nature and not criminal.

She also referred me to a statistical websight for DOJ as I was currious to see how many individuals had been charged with a violation of an ACTUAL law, 922r (US parts counts). No individual has been charged with a violation in the past five years.

I will continue to comply with the requirement of 922r because it is a federal law. As far as engraving it may or may not be required and appears to be regulatory in nature, not criminal.

Good discussion. Thanks.

Derace

Vaughn L. Allen
January 18, 2009, 17:15
Derace,
Thanks for providing all the information necessary to initiate a constructive dialogue. Some of this BATFE gun stuff is so vague and/or muddled that I have to try and get my head around it or go nuts! Sometimes I really think that I'll never get my head around it... I guess that means that I'm already nuts=)

T210driver
January 18, 2009, 17:45
Originally posted by Vaughn L. Allen
Derace,
Thanks for providing all the information necessary to initiate a constructive dialogue. Some of this BATFE gun stuff is so vague and/or muddled that I have to try and get my head around it or go nuts! Sometimes I really think that I'll never get my head around it... I guess that means that I'm already nuts=)

I think you've hit the nail on the head; I don't think that even the BATFE really knows just what it would do because, as you have found, there haven't been any prosecutions in the last five years and I'd be willing to be that there may never have been any prosecutions for this kind of minutia. We do the best we can with the info at hand, i.e muddle along!

Again, thanks.
Derace

DK
January 30, 2009, 01:11
There is a line on the application that asks the bbl length for the SBR you are manufacturing. Say you build it (in the case of an AR15) with a 11.5" bbl, and later decide you would like to swap out that upper with one that is 10", or 7.5", or whatever. Is that acceptable? Can you place a different bbl length upper on the SBR lower after you indicate a certain length on your paperwork?

DK

T210driver
January 30, 2009, 17:15
Originally posted by DK
There is a line on the application that asks the bbl length for the SBR you are manufacturing. Say you build it (in the case of an AR15) with a 11.5" bbl, and later decide you would like to swap out that upper with one that is 10", or 7.5", or whatever. Is that acceptable? Can you place a different bbl length upper on the SBR lower after you indicate a certain length on your paperwork?

DK

From what I understand, any permanent change must be documented by the registrant send a letter to the BATFE advising them of the change(s). If you temporarily swap a different upper onto the lower, you don't have to advise the BATFE of the change. Now what constitutes "temporary" might be debatable.

If memory serves, there was a lot of discussion on the class III site at arfcom talking about the related subject of "multiple calibers". Lot's of folks wanted to use multiple caliber uppers on their registered lowers but your lower is "usually" engrave with a specific caliber; however there are some manufacturers who apparently marked their lowers with "multi" as far as the calibre.

Similar to the "multi caliber", I believe that attempts to register a "range" of barrel lengths was successful in some instances but it was more likely to get your application rejected as of late.

take a look over on arfcom/classIII site. See what the latest is.

later,
Derace

DesertFALrat
February 02, 2009, 20:39
Originally posted by DK
There is a line on the application that asks the bbl length for the SBR you are manufacturing. Say you build it (in the case of an AR15) with a 11.5" bbl, and later decide you would like to swap out that upper with one that is 10", or 7.5", or whatever. Is that acceptable? Can you place a different bbl length upper on the SBR lower after you indicate a certain length on your paperwork?

DK


Put the shortest length barrel you would possibly use on the form.

Changing barrels isn't exactly permenant by any stretch of the imagination.

You paid the tax and jumped through the hoops, you are not one of the bad guys.

Same thing with the engraving issues. We (NFA holders) are the least of BATFE's problems.