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weenlo
December 06, 2008, 10:08
I got my first Service grade Garand from CMP last week. It looked great, so I cleaned her up and went to the range. It shot good groups but with the rear sight all the way down POI was ten inches high at 100 yds. Anybody know of a solution. I'm stumped. Any help would be appreciated.

mj2evans
December 06, 2008, 10:55
Someone *might* have trimmed down the front sight. A new front sight might help. Can you measure the height of the sight? Then we can compare to what others have.

weenlo
December 06, 2008, 11:42
Originally posted by mj2evans
Someone *might* have trimmed down the front sight. A new front sight might help. Can you measure the height of the sight? Then we can compare to what others have.

Doesn't appear to be filed. The gas cylinder and front sight finish is almost new. The barrel and gas cyclinder lock have 50% of blueing worn off. measuring from top of gas cyclinder lock to top of sight blade is 5/8th of inch.

Thankyou

shlomo
December 06, 2008, 17:12
Weenlo, there are a couple-three different gas cylinder lock configurations, with different heights. If you have a caliper, get a dimension from the top of the barrel (behind the sight) to the top of the post.

Also, what is the height of the aperture hole above the bottom of the half-round cut in the rear sight base, when the sight is run down all the way?

weenlo
December 06, 2008, 21:56
Originally posted by shlomo
Weenlo, there are a couple-three different gas cylinder lock configurations, with different heights. If you have a caliper, get a dimension from the top of the barrel (behind the sight) to the top of the post.

Also, what is the height of the aperture hole above the bottom of the half-round cut in the rear sight base, when the sight is run down all the way?

shlomo, I don't have calipers, but with a ruler the top of post is 13/16 from barrel and center of peep on rear is 7/32nd up.

Thankyou

shlomo
December 07, 2008, 13:18
weenlo,

I checked this morning, and both of those numbers are pretty much a spot on match for my rifles.

So, now I'm wondering about bedding. Do me a favor to satisfy my curiosity--take a look at the junction of the stock ferrule (metal part on the end of the stock with front sling swivel, in case you're not familiar) and the lower band (horse-shoe shaped metal part between the two handguard pieces). I'm interested in knowing whether you can lift the barrel/lower band/upper handguard assembly in relation to the stock ferrule. In other words, is there vertical play between the barreled action and the stock, at the ferrule junction.

Let me know what you find.

weenlo
December 07, 2008, 18:47
shlomo,

My Garand came with a new CMP stock. It is tight with no play at the point you asked about. The trigger housing, trigger group and gas cylinder show no wear and look new. The receiver and barrel have only minor wear.(some blueing worn off). The operating rod and gas cylinder lock probably went through WWII. The stock and receiver fit is extremley tight. I was woundering if stock fit could be my problem, but I don't know how to check it.

shlomo
December 07, 2008, 20:12
The new CMP stocks are, in my limited experience with about eight, very good, well-fitted stocks. They would be my first choice of any I know about at present for building a gun without glass bedding.

It is a good thing that the stock fits tightly in the receiver and trigger group area. What I'm wondering about is whether the tip of the stock at the ferrule is putting upward pressure on the barrel at the lower band, and influencing shots in an upward direction. Normally, when setting up a match gun with glass bedding, it is done so that there is a down pressure on the lower band area of about 40 lbs. This is to dampen barrel vibration, and to provide a stable front anchor for the barreled action and gas mechanism. My understanding is that the gun was designed to have at least some down pressure, even on issue GI guns.

I personally have never seen a Garand that could not be adjusted down to a 100 yard zero, but I believe that there was somebody in this forum who had that problem within the last year. I'm gonna see if I can find it later, since I can't recall if it was resolved, and if so, how.

Meanwhile, there are some things for you to check. First, is the barrel seated low enough in the stock that the rear handguard's bottom edges are in contact with the top of the stock, up ahead of the op rod cut near the lower band? There should be a gap of about 1/32 to 3/32 in that area, and on both sides.
Second, check to see if the lower band is pulling up or pushing down on the nose of the stock ferrule. You can do this by trying to slide a strip of paper between the ferrule nose and the leg or legs of the lower band. If you look at the assembly from the front, the legs of the lower band should encircle the nose of the ferrule, with contact toward the bottom of the legs, not toward the top. If you can slide paper between them on either side, you don't have proper upward pull.

Next, pull out the trigger assembly, and pull up the receiver area away from the stock. Reseat it by hand, and without clamping the trigger group back in, check to see whether the front 2/3 of the receiver is down in contact with the stock, or if it is "bridging" the wood, with contact only in the rear "horse-shoe" area of the receiver.

That'll do for a start. It'll be interesting to see if we can noodle this out.

littlehoot
December 07, 2008, 22:44
i had a similar problem, had to trim the rear sight

you can do so, or buy a NM front site, they are taller

got mine to about 1 1/2 high at 100yds close enough for me!

weenlo
December 08, 2008, 17:57
shlome,

is the barrel seated low enough in the stock that the rear handguard's bottom edges are in contact with the top of the stock, up ahead of the op rod cut near the lower band? There should be a gap of about 1/32 to 3/32 in that area.
There is not a visible gap, but I can slide a piece of paper between them all the way around.




check to see if the lower band is pulling up or pushing down. If you can slide paper between them on either side, you don't have proper upward pull.

I can slide a piece of paper about 3/8" up the leg on either side.





check to see whether the front 2/3 of the receiver is down in contact with the stock, or if it is bridging the wood.
I can slide paper between it except for about 1 1/2" around left rear corner of receiver.

shlomo
December 09, 2008, 04:59
Weenlo,

It looks like you have no down pressure at the ferrule. The gap under the receiver sounds fairly normal. I'll bet that when you clamp the trigger group in, you can't slide the paper under the front half of the receiver anymore.

In addition to shooting 10" high at 100, does it string shots vertically? As in, a group that is, say, 2" wide, and 6" tall? Or does it shoot nice, round groups, only high?

weenlo
December 09, 2008, 21:50
Shlomo,

I took her to the range today and shot a eight shot group that was 1 3/4" wide, 4'' tall and the center was 7 1/2" high. I've taken the rifle completely apart and can't find any pressure points that would cause the problem. Put it together with rear and front handguard off and it still has no down pressure.

shlomo
December 09, 2008, 22:21
Weenlo,

Let me clarify and be sure. The ideal situation is to have the barrel and lower band pulling UP against the half-round snout on the stock ferrule. Or to think in the other direction, the end of the stock should be pulling down on the barrel.

If the barrel is just laying in the channel, or is bottoming out on the ferrule or stock wood, it MAY be the cause of the rifle shooting high. Or at least, A cause among possibly others.

And just to make sure, you are experienced with a post-and-aperture sight system, and know how to line up? (I'm not doubting you, but I just wanna check that off the list.) Are you shooting a six o'clock or center hold, and on what size bull at 100?

weenlo
December 10, 2008, 00:04
Originally posted by shlomo
Weenlo,

Let me clarify and be sure. The ideal situation is to have the barrel and lower band pulling UP against the half-round snout on the stock ferrule. Or to think in the other direction, the end of the stock should be pulling down on the barrel.

I have the opposite.

If the barrel is just laying in the channel, or is bottoming out on the ferrule or stock wood, it MAY be the cause of the rifle shooting high. Or at least, A cause among possibly others.

And just to make sure, you are experienced with a post-and-aperture sight system, and know how to line up? (I'm not doubting you, but I just wanna check that off the list.) Are you shooting a six o'clock or center hold, and on what size bull at 100?

I am retired military. First qualified with M14 and carried a M16 for a lot of years. I now own and shoot several AR's. I'm doing a center hold on a 6" bullseye.

shlomo, I appreciate you taking time to help me with this.

shlomo
December 10, 2008, 07:28
No problem. I've acquired a fascination with these rifles in the last couple of years, and am interested in learning anything I can about what makes 'em shoot and not shoot.

Yours is a fairly unusual problem, and I'm really interested in seeing if we can get to the bottom of it.

After working with about a half-dozen team guns for the Nationals in the last two years or so, I've been amazed and impressed with the quality control of the various parts. Considering the fact that they were made during wartime, by the millions, and before the age of CNC machine centers, I'm blown away by the uniformity of spec, heat-treatment, and finish.

So when something like this comes up that defies explanation, it piques my interest.

Tell you what. There's an old fella not far from here who used to be the Army shooting team's armorer back in the fifties and sixties, and who is considered The Guru when it comes to the M1. I'm gonna see if I can get him on the phone today, and pick his brain. I'll bet he'll have something for us.

gordo63
December 10, 2008, 08:40
Have you called and talked with someone at the CMP about this? Their customer service is normally top notch and you may just have a rifle with something just plain wrong. I had a new M1A that with the rear sight all the way down it still shot about 10" high at 100. Sent it back to SAI. They determined that the receiver needed to be refaced. They did that and it shoots just fine now.

weenlo
December 10, 2008, 13:28
shlomo, gordo63, and littlehoot

I called CMP in Alabama this morning and talked to a armory. He stated that he had never heard of anyone having this problem. Also said he didn't know of a requirement that there be pressure either way on the lower barrel band. He did say that they would send me free shipping label to return the rifle with and they would check it out and either fix it, replace it or return my money. My choice.

I will post what they find and do to the rifle. Appreciate all the help.

shlomo
December 10, 2008, 16:18
Cool. Let us know what happens.

V guy
December 31, 2008, 12:33
Sounds like the bbl shoulder might be cut wrong and that can aim a bbl upward...or the rear sight assembly is installed incorrectly somehow...I can't believe that the receiver is twisted...CMP will stand behind it......I got a CMP field grade gun a while back with new VAR bbl and accuracy is almost match grade

littlehoot
January 02, 2009, 01:04
i just noticed group size, what does your garand gauge at the muzzle? my service grade shoots 1-2 inches consistently at a hundred... even though high the groups are tight. the sights may not be the problem

weenlo
January 03, 2009, 15:05
Littlehoot,

Rifle was shipped back to CMP several weeks ago. A technician named Phil called me to discuss problem. He said that he had not seen my problem before and he would probably install a different barrel and test fire it. He said that he was going to hand pick me a service grade for a replacement. He talked like he really cared about my problem and would do whatever it took to make me happy. All the people that I've talk to at CMP have been great. CMP was closed Christmas and New Years weeks so I haven't received my new rifle yet. I saw on their web site that they are only offering about half the options on their greek ammo that they were. Supply could be getting low. Just ordered me a few more cases just to be safe.

jbgw
January 03, 2009, 15:46
CMP customer service is the GOLD standard by which others are measured.
In addition to Garands I bought a used Kimber rifle (.22) for my kids to learn on. I could not get it to fire consistently. They issued a pick up tag and within 2 weeks I had it back and completely functional. No questions asked. And with a smile.

MTS
January 03, 2009, 21:30
weenlo- My Garand did the same thing you describe for years and I could not find a remedy. I eventually did have it re-barrelled and the problem was solved. There was some wear at the muzzle, but it didn't seem bad. Anyway, I'm thinking the re-barrell will get going.

littlehoot
January 05, 2009, 15:37
they have still got plenty of supply, they are having to open cases and inspect each spam can, they were getting reports of occasional cans of tracer or AP ammo mixed in the cases. they are selling the cans individually now is the only difference, and there is no case discount. the ammo can option full of loose ammo is delinked machine gun ammo